>> ^hpqp:

Every action has some form of motivation, even a psycho's mass murdering spree; it's all good and fine to look for it, but in the meanwhile it's the protective action that counts, something the police force in GB took ages to do. As for the "bonehead militias", most of them were simply groups of neighbours and friends trying their best to protect their livelihoods. Most of them were immigrants who had worked hard to build a life for themselves abroad, only to find everything ruined because of unruly misguided youths high on violence.
As for blaming the violence on the bad decisions concerning social services, I beg to differ. Look at the protests/riots in Greece, Spain, etc. All of them had major peacefull counterparts, with actual demands being made. It's not like the so-called "disenfranchised youths" (and they were not all poor, nor young btw) of London and elsewhere did not have recent examples of protests that did not involve using social networking to best loot the fashion shop, and burning people's homes (Arab Spring anyone?).
I agree about the ridiculous consummer identity we have going on in society... "you are what you buy" really sickens me to the bone. As does the corporate criminels going on with their billionaire, society-crushing lifestyles. But is it possible to send a more counterproductive message than the one we've seen in England?
p.s.: what's and ASPO?
Judging by the public statements of officials, the "protective action" is bound to overshoot. Like I said, pillories, assembly-line-justice, the calls for harsher sentences, the calls to have the rioters' housing/benefits stripped, the thought of using the military -- civil liberties are put on notice, and that's putting it mildly. Let the rozzers do their job within the regular frame of the law, play it by the book, don't give them any reason whatsoever for another backlash. Take the kettle off the stove. Forcing a lid on the spout will only make matters worse sooner than later.


As for the Greece/Spain comparison, I would like to submit this: UNICEF 2007: An overview of child well-being in rich countries. Prior to the economic meltdown, Greece and Spain were paradise for kids, compared to the UK. I wouldn't dare to make comparisons nowadays, not with 40%+ youth unemployment in Spain and Greece. But it's clear that the UK has been growing worse over years and years. The lid was bound to blow someday. I figured it would be mass protests, nonviolent ones I might add. I certainly didn't see it taking the shape it has, but in retrospect, signs were abundant -- and ignored. The alarming streak of suicides among kids in recent years alone should have been more than enough.

These are long-term developments, long-term failures, not just the recent cuts. But they sure as hell didn't help, and neither does the prospect of even more cuts down the road. Small example: youth centers are closed down, so now you have kids bored out of their minds who are not allowed to loiter (see: ASBO).

That's what I meant when I said disenfranchised. The state has been on the retreat since Thatcher, the educational system is focused on testing, intolerance for kids in public places has been on the rise for decades and the social gap is wider than anywhere else in Europe. So the ones who drew the short straw are fucked. And so are their children. And theirs, until the cycle is broken. Look at the UN report, page 22: "Relationships" and page 26: "Behaviour and Risks". That doesn't appear overnight, it's at least two generations of failure. No stable relationships, no communities, no values, no respect, no prospect.

As for ASPOs: that's a typo. Or more precisely, a brain failure, because typing a P instead of a B is not an error I can blame on my fingers.

ASBO or anti-social behaviour order is the tool of choice to stop kids from loitering. Anywhere. The street, the park, the yard, the staircase, you name it. It is the formalized dislike for children in the public space. There are, of course, reasonable uses for it, but in certain areas it is used to harass kids. At least it was, no idea if it still is.

Quasi ein Platzverweis, der keines Anlasses benötigt.

Every action has some form of motivation, even a psycho's mass murdering spree; it's all good and fine to look for it, but in the meanwhile it's the protective action that counts, something the police force in GB took ages to do. As for the "bonehead militias", most of them were simply groups of neighbours and friends trying their best to protect their livelihoods. Most of them were immigrants who had worked hard to build a life for themselves abroad, only to find everything ruined because of unruly misguided youths high on violence.

As for blaming the violence on the bad decisions concerning social services, I beg to differ. Look at the protests/riots in Greece, Spain, etc. All of them had major peacefull counterparts, with actual demands being made. It's not like the so-called "disenfranchised youths" (and they were not all poor, nor young btw) of London and elsewhere did not have recent examples of protests that did not involve using social networking to best loot the fashion shop, and burning people's homes (Arab Spring anyone?).

I agree about the ridiculous consummer identity we have going on in society... "you are what you buy" really sickens me to the bone. As does the corporate criminels going on with their billionaire, society-crushing lifestyles. But is it possible to send a more counterproductive message than the one we've seen in England?

p.s.: what's and ASPO?

>> ^radx:

Unjustifiable as their actions are, calling it mindless destruction by spoilt children does no good in my book. There is a reason, there always is a reason, and I highly doubt it is as simple as it is presented to be in most articles I've read so far. They are criminals, yes, but what's their motivation, what's their reasoning? Without knowing the deeper cause, any actions -- crackdowns as many suggest -- will only suppress the problem for the time being, making a later outbreak all the worse.
Particularly if law enforcement plays dirty, pushes the boundaries of the rule of law -- and the use of billboards and social media by the police as a modern pillory, that's on the fucking edge, if you ask me. If one of those bonehead militias acts upon it, the shit could turn ugly real quick.
Anyway, there's no wisdom, no insight I can claim to have from within the isolation of what is commonly known as the middle class; only impressions and thoughts.
However, the violence cannot come as a surprise, given the unrest last winter caused by a raise in tuition fees; it cannot come as a surprise, given the sheer volume of social cuts, particularly small programs. How can anyone be caught off guard by their blatant disregard of the law given how disenfranchised many of them are, and given how the crooks working in the City of London walked away scot-free after the damage they caused, which was magnitude higher. Who speaks out on their behalf? Politicians? Unions? Seems to me, they're on their own, destined to remain invisible -- until they lash out. They appear to be farther removed from the democratic process than anyone would like to admit. Politics, society, community, whatever you want to call it: they have no stakes in the game.
And how surprising is it, really, to find them looting expensive comsumer products -- you are what you wear, right? It's in your face, everywhere, all the time, particularly in a city like London. So now the folks who were cut off from this just snapped and went for it, no matter the rules? I'm shocked!
As for their treatment by the coppers: are ASPOs still handed out left, right and center in certain districts?
But hey, like I said, I'm too far removed from their reality of life to make any meaningful statements, much less suggestions. Just poking in the dark, that's what this is.

I would be with you 100% if it was the governments/big corporations/banks who were reaping what they sow. But it's not. It's the locals who are losing their businesses, cars, homes... even lives. That's why I have nothing but despise for these thugs. The protest about Duggan's death was a peaceful march, but when night came the dregs of society (and not only poor society I might add) came out of the woodworks and took over, and it has been nothing but pathetic criminal opportunism since.

http://videosift.com/video/London-looters-don-t-give-a-f-ck-about-people-s-homes-burnin

>> ^peggedbea:

there's even something deeper to the looting. like how all the worlds politicians and public official have been looting the public coffers and living off of bribes from corporations while gutting entitlements and vital social services. i don't doubt the looters are probably douchebags, but you can reap what you sew, governments.
>> ^hpqp:
@Yogi: see the video below, it's the same street the night before. The people who wrecked this street were simply profiting from the situation to steal stuff, nothing more.
edit: embed fail: http://videosift.com/video/News-Reporter-Confronts-London-Looters

there's even something deeper to the looting. like how all the worlds politicians and public official have been looting the public coffers and living off of bribes from corporations while gutting entitlements and vital social services. i don't doubt the looters are probably douchebags, but you can reap what you sew, governments.

>> ^hpqp:

@Yogi: see the video below, it's the same street the night before. The people who wrecked this street were simply profiting from the situation to steal stuff, nothing more.
edit: embed fail: http://videosift.com/video/News-Reporter-Confronts-London-Looters

the sad thing is, the things talked about here, are soo far over the head of ALOT of Americans

maybe not for lack of intelligence... but literally for people getting so caught up in the theatre, so caught up in Republican/Democrat bs that they fail to see what is really going on

politics for the politicians, not the people
corruption and corporate mandates

and the people eat this all up as the rich get richer, and they become serfs once again

because its all wrapped up in patriotism and religion... and any sane person leaves those at the door when it comes to politics

honestly, do Americans realize for all their "USA USA" and "WE'RE NUMBER 1" chanting, that the rest of the world sees this as the decline of an empire? (wonder how many angry Americans that will rile up)... and by this, I don't just mean the debt ceiling debate... but the apathy towards your fellow Americans when it comes to health care and other social services... let alone the other 95% of the world's population...

the saddest thing is this has all happened before, the economics even in America itself... sad not to learn from history... but then, it's usually only onlookers as opposed to the subject themselves who realize exactly whats going to happen when the subject jumps off the ledge, soo hopped up on patriotism that they think they can fly

public sector and teachers unions and how they are being beaten down are just the framework for what the corporate cronies are planning for all unions... it don't matter your line of work, or your current status quo... the fact that there weren't people in the streets in larger numbers when wisconsin was attacking collective bargaining just blew my mind

people have been brainwashed into believing unions and government are bad, and morons eat it right up... proper unions protect worker's rights and ensure compensation is fair (though, the last 30 or so years, most unions have failed at this as wages for everything but ceo's have remained flat or went down - not even counting inflation)... proper government is supposed to protect it's citizens... right now, the big boogie man is scary bearded muslims in caves 1/2 way across the world... NOT corporations/financial institutions/wall street who through lobbying and corrupt politicians are erroding civil rights, robbing the poor blind, and conducting "free market" economics in the loosest sense of the word... proper government should protect it's citizens from unfair business practices, outright financial robbery, and ensure that people can have access to the necessities that will allow them to live productive lives and to pursue happiness (social security, health care, etc)

any time a politician tells you that something should be privatized (especially social services) because the government is incapable of making it work, making it solvent, etc... you should regard them as a crony and right-out liar... no "for profit" business would want to get into these areas if there wasn't a buck to be made... and honestly, if there isn't a way to make it work, what's their only recourse... build a system that promotes the denial of the social services rather the actual offering of them... insurance/pension/health care... take your pick, companies WANT to be involved, and they are spending MILLIONS of dollars buying off politicians to do so

the rich are using everything in their playbook to revert society back to pre-depression status quo... and most of you have been sold the idea, usually because of fear mongering propoganda... or straight out lies... its sad to see people tear down the country that supposedly means so much to them in the name of the country that means so much to them... the rich don't give a sh_t where they live... wealth buys power.... North America could be used up like a dry, shrivelled up flower... and they'll just hop to the next one, leaving us all here to fend for our own survival.... and even if you have "some" money... unless you are in that top 1%, don't think you are invited along... your money is fair game too... and its getting to the point where you are either with the "elite" few... or the "outraged" majority... don't be surprised to find out people remember where you're loyalties lay

don't buy into the Dream... think... it doesn't take alot of logic/common sense to see this plain as day... and ffs act, because if everyone hopes someone else will do it for them, then it won't get done

Lazy, entitled, liberal kids no doubt. What they need to do is pull themselves up by their bootstraps, get a damn job and trust in the market. I'm tired of the hard earned four percent of income taxes I actually pay (after all my deductions and the bankruptcy of my Nevada paper corporation) going to literal "free lunches" at schools.

You know what we need to do to help these kids? Cut pay to social services workers.

@messenger

@quantumushroom is right that previous immigrant groups learning the language and assimilating into the culture allowed for the creation of a coherent society in which cooperation and sacrifice for the common good was often reasonable.

Since liberals don't care about the good of society enough to do things like, in this case, ask immigrants to adopt even the tiniest of successful habits, preferring instead to create social decay like that which you created in California, I stand by my initial statement: it's rational for the smart fraction to be capitalists and let society sort out it's own endless self-caused problems.

>> ^messenger:

1. So you believe a person's decisions should never reflect their own preferences or comfort where they conflict with society's, even so slightly as reading a single prepared deposition in a different language with an interpreter? What if he believed that lack of inclusion of people from other cultures was a greater social problem in America --he represents a group of immigrant workers, so we can assume he strongly holds that belief-- and he was in a position to represent his own culture in a public place? Wouldn't that mean he's doing exactly the right thing based on his own opinions of what's important?
2a. Dealt with above.
2b. How would you phrase what you believe then?
I have no idea how government handouts suddenly entered this conversation, so I'll just ignore that. Prosperity comes through a combination of hard work and social services, in that order. I'm guessing you think greater prosperity = greater success. I don't agree that prosperity is the only measure of success. I think happiness = success and prosperity is almost always a factor in happiness. Having to reject your own culture publicly is not. Maybe that's where we're disagreeing.

1. So you believe a person's decisions should never reflect their own preferences or comfort where they conflict with society's, even so slightly as reading a single prepared deposition in a different language with an interpreter? What if he believed that lack of inclusion of people from other cultures was a greater social problem in America --he represents a group of immigrant workers, so we can assume he strongly holds that belief-- and he was in a position to represent his own culture in a public place? Wouldn't that mean he's doing exactly the right thing based on his own opinions of what's important?

2a. Dealt with above.

2b. How would you phrase what you believe then?

I have no idea how government handouts suddenly entered this conversation, so I'll just ignore that. Prosperity comes through a combination of hard work and social services, in that order. I'm guessing you think greater prosperity = greater success. I don't agree that prosperity is the only measure of success. I think happiness = success and prosperity is almost always a factor in happiness. Having to reject your own culture publicly is not. Maybe that's where we're disagreeing.

This is so scandalous! Because they are precious girls! What? Boys behave similarly? Pff who cares...

Yay double standard. That being said, where are social services? Why are these idiots still with their parents?

And why is the Maury Show allowed to show such crap which is clearly stirred up artificially?

And why don't I know the answers? I'm studying this crap!

To the lawmakers: Laws against dancing are silly, and not unlike the old fogies in Footloose.

To the protesters: Surely there are more important things to protest. (Iraq, Afghanistan, torture, foreign prisons, corporate domination of our political system, the 'Citizen's United' ruling, lack of accountability for Wall Street crime, subsidies of high fructose corn syrup during an obesity epidemic, the war on drugs, gutting of social services, the patriot act, tax givaways to corporations and the super rich during a recession, No Child Left Behind, lack of a decent health care system, the department of homeland security, indulgent military spending, gutting of consumer protections, gutting of rights for workers, the rape of the underclasses, etc.)

I'd be happy to forfeit my right to dance at national monuments in return for an end to any of the practices listed above.

tactic: reduce the budget of a social service, restrict them with ridiculous regulations... wait for the service to flounder... use that as a reason to privatize it.... watch the revenue for that service increase, while the level/quality of service remains the same or worse



its easy to want to blame the firefighters/police there... but two things are probably preventing them... not having the proper equipment combined with the fact that perhaps this person is looking to/will inadvertantly take someone with him... 2 reprisal from doing their job outide of the guidelinse set for them... ie suspension or most likely termination

in a society where everyone is actually doing well economically, and not under a state of constant fear, it would be ALOT easier for morality to win out in this situation... but when you have to risk your job, to do your job which risks the security of say... your family... its not easy

the sad thing is, ANY inquiry into this matter will stop at the police/firemen involved... and not look at the environment/atmosphere/mentality involved here

I love you.

In reply to this comment by RedSky:
Both MSNBC and FOX provide a biased view of events and distort the truth. Everyone knows this, somehow I never see you attributing this on both sides of the fence though.

Socialism is a broad term than means everything to everyone. Yes, countries like the UK and Australia provide more baseline social services like health care provision and social security but that is the only real substantial difference.

The average worker's disposable income is roughly the same:

http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2006/01/taxes_and_dispo.html

Whatever you call them, they're both free market economies, with the same rights for individuals on the things that matter. Using a phrase that can simultaneously refer to a single party regimes based on Marxism like China and Vietnam is misleading and you know it.

How about the other G8 countries? Last time I checked every other country in it: Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan and Russia all had much more in common in terms of civil programs with the UK/Aus than the US.

Distortions aside, the fact of that matter is that most people living in developed countries would consider the views of conservatives in the US far right wing. They would probably consider a publicly subsidized, individual mandate including, private health care system like the one Obama proposed, Romney enacted and Republicans proposed in the 1990s as a right wing proposal. The fact that you probably think it would destroy the economy should be proof enough who's really on the extremity of opinion.

For that matter, I'd be interested in your take on this:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/obama-revealed-a-moderate-republican/2011/04/25/AFPrGfkE_story.html

Feel free to point out any inaccuracies you can identify.
>> ^quantumushroom:

Britain and Australia? Those countries have a two-party system: Socialist and Even More Socialist.
And it's not that the libmedia here "make fun" of conservatives. They distort, lie, omit and cheat the public every day and have done so for 60-plus years. They neither challenge nor question authority when it's a Taxocrat in power. Liberal shills do not good journalists make.
It's odd how the left instantly sees the bias of Fox news but never their own.

>> ^RedSky:
If you think the liberal networks make fun of where American conservatism is, you should see what people on British or Australian talk shows say about them when the topic comes up.
Are they DNC mouthpieces too?>> ^quantumushroom:
Do you think—could it be possible—that Fox News lied in order to promote a conservative agenda?
If they did, they still have 60 years of playing catch-up to the libmedia, who work out of DNC hindquarters.

Both MSNBC and FOX provide a biased view of events and distort the truth. Everyone knows this, somehow I never see you attributing this on both sides of the fence though.

Socialism is a broad term than means everything to everyone. Yes, countries like the UK and Australia provide more baseline social services like health care provision and social security but that is the only real substantial difference.

The average worker's disposable income is roughly the same:

http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2006/01/taxes_and_dispo.html

Whatever you call them, they're both free market economies, with the same rights for individuals on the things that matter. Using a phrase that can simultaneously refer to a single party regimes based on Marxism like China and Vietnam is misleading and you know it.

How about the other G8 countries? Last time I checked every other country in it: Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan and Russia all had much more in common in terms of civil programs with the UK/Aus than the US.

Distortions aside, the fact of that matter is that most people living in developed countries would consider the views of conservatives in the US far right wing. They would probably consider a publicly subsidized, individual mandate including, private health care system like the one Obama proposed, Romney enacted and Republicans proposed in the 1990s as a right wing proposal. The fact that you probably think it would destroy the economy should be proof enough who's really on the extremity of opinion.

For that matter, I'd be interested in your take on this:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/obama-revealed-a-moderate-republican/2011/04/25/AFPrGfkE_story.html

Feel free to point out any inaccuracies you can identify.
>> ^quantumushroom:

Britain and Australia? Those countries have a two-party system: Socialist and Even More Socialist.
And it's not that the libmedia here "make fun" of conservatives. They distort, lie, omit and cheat the public every day and have done so for 60-plus years. They neither challenge nor question authority when it's a Taxocrat in power. Liberal shills do not good journalists make.
It's odd how the left instantly sees the bias of Fox news but never their own.

>> ^RedSky:
If you think the liberal networks make fun of where American conservatism is, you should see what people on British or Australian talk shows say about them when the topic comes up.
Are they DNC mouthpieces too?>> ^quantumushroom:
Do you think—could it be possible—that Fox News lied in order to promote a conservative agenda?
If they did, they still have 60 years of playing catch-up to the libmedia, who work out of DNC hindquarters.

"A great example of rampant, over-reaching, ignorant, and ill-conceived political foolishness.

Just imagine if security mismanagement such as that encountered at the DHS or the TSA was to impact the NSTIC; one serious data breach would provide a field day for the bad guys. And should that happen, imagine the chaos while the problem was addressed … clients of any of the government's social services would find themselves locked out, services like the Department of Motor Vehicles would grind to a halt (OK, make that more of a halt), and companies that deal with the government could see their businesses hit a brick wall.

And all of this would be because the wonks at NIST think they can do what enterprises with far more experience in hardcore IT have learned the hard way; that unified security is incredibly difficult to implement even for a few thousand people. For tens of millions of citizen, it would be effectively impossible!" - http://www.networkworld.com/columnists/2011/011411-backspin.html