Aaaand guess how many of these right-wing conservatives are against?

/Captain Obvious

>> ^peggedbea:

this is how you decrease the number of abortions:
1. free comprehensive, scientifically sound, sex education to all
2. readily available, easily accessible, very affordable, guilt-free access to contraception in every community
3. counseling
4. streamline the adoption process to make it an actual option to EVERY sane, loving adult with the means to care for a child. i'd adopt a 3rd baby in a heart beat if it didn't cost $40k and they let single women of modest income do it. i have the means to support another child, but i don't have $40k laying around.
5. make health care a right
6. revisit public policies that actually alleviate poverty
7. equal pay for women
8. make legitimate vocational schools as affordable as community college and/or offer more grant-eligible vocational programs within community colleges... i know from experience that learning a trade can offer as much opportunity for single mothers as it can for any young man.
guess how many of these abortion-preventing solutions planned parenthood has a hand in???

this is how you decrease the number of abortions:

1. free comprehensive, scientifically sound, sex education to all
2. readily available, easily accessible, very affordable, guilt-free access to contraception in every community
3. counseling
4. streamline the adoption process to make it an actual option to EVERY sane, loving adult with the means to care for a child. i'd adopt a 3rd baby in a heart beat if it didn't cost $40k and they let single women of modest income do it. i have the means to support another child, but i don't have $40k laying around.
5. make health care a right
6. revisit public policies that actually alleviate poverty
7. equal pay for women
8. make legitimate vocational schools as affordable as community college and/or offer more grant-eligible vocational programs within community colleges... i know from experience that learning a trade can offer as much opportunity for single mothers as it can for any young man.

guess how many of these abortion-preventing solutions planned parenthood has a hand in???

@GeeSussFreeK not to bleed one conversation into another, but SDGundamX's post above is a great example of consequentialist reasoning for why abortion should be kept safe and legal.

It's also consequentialist reasoning for why he thinks you need a damn good reason to ever abort a child in any circumstance. It's also consequentialist reasoning that leads him to say that if your goal is truly to minimize abortion, you should be in favor of better sex education and access to birth control for teens, not trying to squeeze abortion clinics out of existence.

It might go without saying, but I agree with every word he wrote too.

Ah, abortion on the Sift again. I participated in the discussion last time. I'll quote myself from last time because I think it is relevant to what's going on in Kansas.

The only thing I'd like to add to that comment is that I believe that it would be possible to seriously reduce the number of abortions by doing what @Mikus_Aurelius said--making sure we have mandatory sex education classes and good access to birth control (for all ages).


In reply to this comment by SDGundamX:
Two years ago, if you had asked me my position on abortion I would have told you I was pro-choice all the way. Then I saw an actual abortion performed and had everything I believed turned upside down. Seeing the doctor wash little dismembered body-parts into a sink--arms, legs, parts of a skull--and count everything up to make sure he got it all... that pretty much convinced me I needed to re-examine my beliefs. I have tried since that time to be open to all positions on the matter and to form my own opinion based on reason and logic. The conclusion I came to is very similar to swampgirl's--abortion is morally wrong but is also a necessary evil.

I'm an atheist, so I don't oppose abortion on any religious grounds. No, like swampgirl said earlier, I just think we should stop beating around the bush. We're taking human lives here. Granted, we're doing it as mercifully as we can (i.e. before the nervous and pain response systems are fully developed) and for ostensibly good reasons. But I think too many people try to gloss over the fact that a human life is ended in the process. I think people are uncomfortable with the idea and that's why we quibble over when a human is an officially recognized "person" or when certain rights should be ascribed.

However, although I oppose abortion on moral grounds, I do not agree with making abortions illegal. That probably seems paradoxical to most people, but it stems from the fact that I am pragmatic. There are serious problems with making abortion illegal: backroom abortions and their associated risks; a suddenly skyrocketing number of babies that need adoption placement in a system that is already burgeoning under the weight of unwanted or neglected children; massive population expansion at a time when resources such as clean water are becoming scarce; and so on. In an ideal world, we could make abortions illegal and provide superior care and support for all women who must carry unwanted babies and place all of those unwanted babies with caring, loving, families. But I've seen enough of the world to know that it is anything but ideal.

And so I believe that as horrible as it is, legal abortions are necessary in the world. It kind of depresses me a little bit that I can find something immoral and yet still condone it. I think maybe it's a sign that I'm getting old that I'm willing to compromise my morals for pragmatic concerns.

@geesussfreak, I get that there are some who see abortion as murder. I respect that.

What bothers me is that they so desperately want to save the life of the unborn fetus while being for the death penalty and against welfare support for the child once it is born. They don't mind if a woman dies carrying a baby to term. They block sex education and contraception so that unwanted babies aren't created. They aren't so careful with the mental health of young girls and women who have been raped and empregnanted by their abusers.

It is the inconsistency that bothers me.

The world is a harsh place. Horrible things happen. All we can do is minimize the damage as best we can.

Forcing women and children into back alleys for abortions desperately desired is not a solution.



>> ^GeeSussFreeK:

>> ^RFlagg:
And yet Republicans claim that it is the Democrats who want to control how people live their lives and that they are for freedom... despite the Republicans being the party to control who people can marry, want to control woman's rights, they are the party that want to keep the drug war going far more so than the other, they are the ones behind the Patriot Act... about the only right they seem to be ahead of the Democrats on is gun control.

While I most agree with this, nearly completely, those against abortion equate it to murder...something government is most assuredly involved in. I find the debate on abortion good, in a way. One side is valuing life, the other liberty...both of the things that make this union great. I kind of wish people would see it like that instead of each side as the devil.

i think there is an overall underlying psychology to the movement as a whole that is about power and control. but i think on an individual level, individual people actually think it is about life and death......... which is the problem with religion, and possibly even political structures and capitalism (thought i haven't thought those two through in depth yet). the over all structure is about maintaining power and control and on the micro level.. people just want to live and love and be good and take care of their families and feel something passionately.

the last rally i went to was about 500 people with 20 or so pro life counter protesters... a few hours into it this mad woman showed up and started screaming at the top of her lungs "ABORTION IS MURDER!!ITS MURDER!!" and then some other insanely gruesome things. which, of course, started a shouting match. so we left. because 1. i didnt want my kids hearing the horrific things she was yelling. and 2. i make it a rule not to argue with the mentally ill... but that woman certainly believed it was about life and death. and i do very much believe she would do what she could to financially support a young a pregnant woman and the child.

i think i love the psychology of societies.



ps. my 5 year old son is sitting on the couch across from me babbling various facts about arthropods. and my daughter was just in the backyard making a daisy chain sort of thing out of lavender, clovers and cucumbers.. chasing our dog through the garden......she just ran inside, locked the front door and said she had to lock it because she saw a snake and got scared. i said "... snakes cant open doors. and you're not afraid of them" and her reply ..."oooh.. i meant a velocipator then"

>> ^dystopianfuturetoday:

I get the feeling that the pro life movement is more anti sex than anti abortion. I can't tell you how many times I've discussed the issue and heard pro lifers characterize young sexually active women as sluts and whores. They talk about motherhood as more of a punishment for promiscuity than a joyous and profound part of the human experience. Usually the slut talk comes out when you get them a little angry.
It's interesting that these beliefs are held by a patriarchal segment of society whom are usually pretty OK with violence, poverty, torture, the death penalty, war, shock and awe, etc. I'm convinced that this seeming conradiction isn't a contradiction at all, because this issue isn't about life, it's about power. More specifically, male power over female sexuality.
Sometimes I ask pro lifers (both genders) if they would be willing to carry a woman's unwanted unborn child for her in order to save its life, assuming technology advanced to a point where it was possible. "No, it's not my responsibility" is the common answer, which supports my gut feeling that this issue is not actually about life. Another argument I use is "would you be willing to financially support a poor pregnant mother?", which also ilicits some telling (read: ugly) responses ("I wouldn't want to give financial incentive to unwed motherhood.") Shifting the responsibility from the mother to the pro-lifer is a good way to get to the subconscious core of these belief systems.
If the pro life movement was a bit more pragmatic, I think they could find some compromise with the pro choice movement, because people on all sides of the issue find abortion tragic and traumatic. I think more restrictive abortion regulation might be accepted in trade for more honest, more effective, more present sex education, counseling and free and easy access to birth control. Abortion is a symptom of unwanted pregnancies. Child abuse and neglect are also symptoms of unwanted pregnancy. What if we combined movements and focused on the root cause? Then again, if I'm correct in my hunch that this issue has more to do with sex and power than life, sex ed and free rubbers would be more offensive than abortion itself.
Good stuff, bea.

I get the feeling that the pro life movement is more anti sex than anti abortion. I can't tell you how many times I've discussed the issue and heard pro lifers characterize young sexually active women as sluts and whores. They talk about motherhood as more of a punishment for promiscuity than a joyous and profound part of the human experience. Usually the slut talk comes out when you get them a little angry.

It's interesting that these beliefs are held by a patriarchal segment of society whom are usually pretty OK with violence, poverty, torture, the death penalty, war, shock and awe, etc. I'm convinced that this seeming conradiction isn't a contradiction at all, because this issue isn't about life, it's about power. More specifically, male power over female sexuality.

Sometimes I ask pro lifers (both genders) if they would be willing to carry a woman's unwanted unborn child for her in order to save its life, assuming technology advanced to a point where it was possible. "No, it's not my responsibility" is the common answer, which supports my gut feeling that this issue is not actually about life. Another argument I use is "would you be willing to financially support a poor pregnant mother?", which also ilicits some telling (read: ugly) responses ("I wouldn't want to give financial incentive to unwed motherhood.") Shifting the responsibility from the mother to the pro-lifer is a good way to get to the subconscious core of these belief systems.

If the pro life movement was a bit more pragmatic, I think they could find some compromise with the pro choice movement, because people on all sides of the issue find abortion tragic and traumatic. I think more restrictive abortion regulation might be accepted in trade for more honest, more effective, more present sex education, counseling and free and easy access to birth control. Abortion is a symptom of unwanted pregnancies. Child abuse and neglect are also symptoms of unwanted pregnancy. What if we combined movements and focused on the root cause? Then again, if I'm correct in my hunch that this issue has more to do with sex and power than life, sex ed and free rubbers would be more offensive than abortion itself.

Good stuff, bea.

@Sagemind Exactly, this 'Planned Parenthood' label has confused the shit out of me as an outsider to the US. It's 'Sex Education', 'Sexual Safety', 'Responsible Sex', whatever... but the people this is targeting are not 'Planning Parenthood', they're just wanting to have sex.

Is it because people are so freaked out by the word sex that they thought that giving it some 'save' name would make it fly better?

And no, this video is pretty crap. DOES have too much reading, DOESN'T have a good hook, tag, gimmick, anything really to make it 'stick'.

Don't think it helps anyone.

No once did I hear "I'm Making Babies" or "I want to plan to be a parent" - So why do they call it Planned Parenthood and call it what it is.

It's called "Sex Education"

Here's a few things that the Tea Party of my neighbor to the north, Montana, is pushing:

- Ban abortions
- Limit sex education
- Nullifying any federal law or right they don't like

Yeah, the party of 'liberty' wants to take away reproductive rights, restrict education about human sexuality, and nullify any other rights they deem unnecessary.

But I assure you, the Montana teabaggers have their priorities straight. They also want to:

- Declare global warming to be good for business
- Legalize hunting big game with a spear

You see, spear hunting is an urgent issue, and the Tea Party is going to make sure that it gets addressed by the state legislature because the state has oppressed spear hunters for far too long. This is important business, requiring tax dollars for the time and effort for this crucial debate.

Oh, and guess what they have to say if you don't like their agenda: "I say to you: 'This is America: Love it or leave it,'" shouted Rep. William McChesney, during the sovereignty declaration debate.

It's "liberty" on their terms, or get the fuck out.
>> ^Ryjkyj:

QM, how can you endorse people who want to enforce, by law, rules about who can get married, who can raise children, what women do with their bodies, and who should and shouldn't be able to negotiate the compensation for their labor...
But the president's wife suggesting that we might start a program to educate kids about the dangers and benefits of nutrition is just the height of tyrannical nanny-ism...

"Our aim is to make abortion rare "

put money into and suport sex education froma yuong age , and hand out free contraception and gude women and men to clinics that can help them get the pill or other contaception then.

ohhhhh , he realy means our aim is to be fucking retarded morons and pick and choose at an old book geting everyone to belive it at anny cost ignoring whats been scentificaly proven to work best and be helpfull to people.

@SDGundamX

To be absolutely honest I haven't done much reading about how many Africans were killed as a direct consequence to the preachings of the Catholic Church. I do however believe that in poor parts where people are uneducated, a missionary loaded with the dogma and latest rationales about the sinfulness of using condoms can do significant damage (especially if it fits the culture). I will try to fit some time in to do more research on the topic and get back to you. My somewhat uninformed view is that the Pope now having changed his mind opens a brighter future, but significant damage has been done and will linger for a long time. For now I assume we both agree that the Catholic Church has done more damage than good when it comes to the spreading of AIDS in Africa.

If we flip the argument a bit instead, imagine a church that actively supported the use of condoms for stopping the spreading of AIDS and did not believe in abstinence (which has been pretty much proven ineffective). Members giving contributions to send missionaries that could do sex education and supply free condoms and advice about sexuality. I bet that religion could save countless lives, but instead we are stuck with the Catholic Church and its books and dogmas. The Catholic Church did not want people to get infected with AIDS but at the same time I've a hard time seeing how its dogmas help the situation. Either way I will read up on the subject and we can have another round

I don't see this video as aimed at religious people. I see it squarely aimed at people who think religion is nonsense but cave in to the taboo of not calling it just that. The emperor has no clothes; people do not need to give the respect that religions think they owe. Calling religious people idiots dispel peoples belief that some thoughts deserve to go unchallenged.

A quick word about religious moderates. I do not think they exist because the church realized one day a new way of reading the bible. I do believe moderates exist because science just made people realize the Bible or any other holy book cannot be read literally. This whole thing about reading the Bible (or any holy book) in a new and better way; I simply cannot see how it comes from religion itself, built on authority and dogma it just wont move on its own. This to me means that if moderates have a somewhat better perspective and attitude they do not owe it to religion.

I had been avoiding this video on purpose. But I suppose it's time to finally watch it.

A lack of sex education. Huh. Sort of like Abstinence only.

Ignorance.

>> ^kronosposeidon:

Love that redneck lady at the end:
"I don't really think there's any big deal about it. I think there's much worse things going on in the schools today..."
And what are those? Sex education? Evolution being taught? STFU before you make yourself sound even dumber, if that's possible.


The problem is that we're only seeing a small portion of the school's curriculum out of context. As Ms. Hughes points out, this wasn't really suprising and there's a lot worse going in in the school. Here's a typical day:
Geometry - how to use angles and geometry to hypothetically assasinate the president.
Chemistry - how to use bunsen burners and test tubes to hypothetically create a fertilizer bomb to blow up the IRS.
English - how to use pursuasive writing to hypothetically write a terrorist bomb threat.
Biology - how to use petri dishes to hypothetically smuggle explosives past bomb-sniffing dogs.
Drivers ed - how to use proper signaling to hypothetically drive a truck filled with explosives through a government checkpoint.

If she did say that, she is just as ignorant as the teacher>> ^GaussZ:

She went on to say: "... like underpaid teachers who are not motivated enough to teach our children or all the outdated schoolbooks as well as a ridiculous curriculum. I have to school my children at home because about the only thing they seem to learn in school is not to judge a person by their looks..."
>> ^kronosposeidon:
Love that redneck lady at the end:
"I don't really think there's any big deal about it. I think there's much worse things going on in the schools today..."
And what are those? Sex education? Evolution being taught? STFU before you make yourself sound even dumber, if that's possible.