I just like how they throw in gerrymandering at the end. They tried to do this in Utah last year to keep democratic winners at a minimum.

If you wish to know why: Salt Lake City, it's northern neighbor city, Ogden, and the city that had most of the Olympic events, Park City, all vote democratic. However, the farther south of Salt lake City the more republicans you find. The only reason they vote Republican is for some reason we've yet to figure out in the main valley is why they vote Republican. These are typically good 'ol church going or listening to Rush/Beck type people and have a LARGE tendency of group-think and block voting.

In other words we always get screwed over (even in the suburbs) by this demographic. It's the same demographic that screwed over California on prop 8. The block or: "your religion wants you to vote this way" (which I see as a huge state versus religion debate that should be brought up) works VERY well. It's very tiring to watch it happen in EVERY election, but people are getting smarter as the cities, specifically, along the Wasatch Front (the western edge of the Rocky Mountains end in a huge corridor that runs N/S from southern Idaho to Southern Utah--close to Las Vegas) that are natural valleys that form every 40-70 miles and end with the mountain ranges on both sides "cutting off" the metropolitan areas forming about six major areas, and then some cities off to the east of the mountains (not many, some of them are: Moab, Tooele, Price, Vernal, etc...). Most of the populace lives in this area and it distinctly follows I-15 which runs straight into Los Angeles.

Strangely enough the more people that live in more urban type environments with lots of people, these people tend to have a democratic or atleast a very moderate republican stance. The smaller cities ALL vote republican. In other words, Salt Lake City is held hostage by Utah's small cities and developing cities along the I-15 corridor or cities that are not located next to I-15 and of course Utah County, just south of Salt Lake City or Salt Lake County (which has many cities, Provo being the biggest; but more importantly it has BYU; hence it's almost inane voting standard).

The politicians wish to divide Salt Lake County into an area unable to vote democratically as they would group us with just enough "typical republican voters" as to make our votes worthless. This got shot down last year, but I have no idea about this year. With our new law passed I can't even look to see if they're trying to do this--which is probably why they wanted to do this anyway.

Lots of these politicians were going to get kicked out in the next election cycle, some did. But, they got replaced by a worse setup: Tea Party or Glenn Beck followers that hide behind the all magical (R). The populace loving their block voting voted these idiots right in and of course the laws this year are inane. Mike Lee would be an example of this.

It should also be known that the LDS/Mormon church owns quite a bit of media in and around this area (the biggest is called Deseret, but there are a few more). The reach of this media reaches a lot of areas in the Intermountain West or Intermountain Region (which is HUGE): Utah, Wyoming, Nevada, Colorado, Arizona, California, Oregon, Idaho and Washington--there may be more, but the largest stronghold is Wyoming, Utah, California (around the Sierra Nevada and north), and Idaho. KSL (at KSL.com) is the LDS churches right arm in Utah and in the regions I listed above; it's also the churches direct feed to their semi-annual conferences that are followed by members voraciously. Many people consider coming to Utah to see the conferences much like a pilgrimage you see in other religions.

Wyoming and Idaho, as they do not have major news/media stations (or atleast in the past they didn't-this is still true for western Wyoming), KSL fills that void, as the church and the members have more than enough money to make this a very far reaching media outlet for the Intermountain West/Region. KSL plays it's role well when it comes to group-think and spreading the ideas created by the church and even LDS politicians, along with the churches run newspaper "Deseret News"; with the "satanic" or democratic/moderately conservative and more level headed news publication provided by "The Salt Lake Tribune" which is a very good newspaper. Even if you're a republican and not LDS, you'll find it to be a good source for news for anyone that isn't a "Republican Mormon"; they are very centrist in their opinions and provide a VERY MUCH needed counterweight in the region. KSL tends to follow Deseret News or likewise, Deseret News follows KSL--obviously following the LDS churches thoughts and opinions on subjects. Though they tend to do fine as long as they're ONLY reporting the news, like a breaking story...

Anything that has time to become an op-ed becomes an obvious religiously slanted opinion and more annoyingly, lately (the last decade or so), it has a politically charged republican view. Recently some Tea Party views have crept in. The LDS church doesn't seem to like or hate the tea party and I've never heard an opinion making their stance on that issue official at any level; but, at the same time I know a lot of Mormons that love Glenn Beck and Rush, so that situation to me seems "fuzzy" at best. As the church has never reprimanded Glenn Beck (as far as I know). If I said some of the same things that Glenn Beck has, would most certainly be incurring a disfellowship or even a excommunication. I'm an atheist, so if I made that known I'd certainly get the excommunication. But, you may need to go to the meeting to see that happen; which I wouldn't--I'd have to ask someone more "in the know" to get an idea what would happen as even when I was a Mormon no one ever talked about these meetings, they were taboo. Anyway...

Typically the Intermountain West or Intermountain Region is the "Mountain States or the Sierra Nevada, Cascades, and the Rocky Mountains" and the "Great Basin or Intermontane Plateaus and Colorado Plateau". Which is VERY large.

So that is my experience with church vs. state and the members of said faith trying to hoodwink others by using gerrymandering or other unscrupulous ways to change the vote in their favor. These people should be the excommunicated ones... But, since they aren't it makes me think MUCH less of the LDS church (but, since Proposition 8 I've had little faith that they were anything, but another religion trying to force people to see things there way--there is no middle ground). So if you live in "The Intermountain West", which is a huge region, make sure you find out who is behind your media. You may be surprised.

I think that should cover everything I wanted to say.

Bone nobody complains about the fact the movies cost money (they do, Netflix charges you/month).

This is a small overlap of American lawmakers not going after Net Neutrality. While Netflix creates a lot of usage there are prices for everything on the net. WoW (or any MMO and ultimately every game) costs money, Videosift costs money, Amazon, Comcast, "x", "z", etc... We're already paying through the nose.

Your Grandma might disagree with the "fabricated" .63 cents if she knew how little ISPs pay in regards to bandwidth. It's a joke. What ISP doesn't already have a hard cap? Comcast (and before that, XMission) has always had a fairly high cap. Congestion on the large scale are from inept engineers and planners. If your area block should only have 35 users at 240 GB/month and it gets congested because they let 40 people into the block, that isn't "our" problem. It's poor management with bad design and engineering; no one wants to build infrastructure.

If it was solely P2P stuff I might agree, but your talking about paid, "doubly so", Internet usage fees. Guess where all the "extra" (money for Blizzard, Microsoft - for Gold & Zune, Netflix, and many, many, more) money goes. To the ISPs. Bandwidth IS dirt cheap for them and will continue to be the same as long as the tech goes up at "x^2".

The fault is entirely at the ISPs feet. If they don't innovate they find themselves not offering "the best product". Legislating away your problems is like the U.S. Congress and Senate.

Anyway... I said my two cents before, but these kind of moves are horrifically laughable when you know how fast you'd go "uncapped" and the bandwidth available (in our area, Salt Lake City, heavy fiber optic lines; which again I payed for as a taxpayer).

Strange, I'll have to look at the local properties -- it sounds like you guys flood the same way our areas flood here, specifically. Last major flood in Salt Lake City was in 82'-83' after monsoon rains and a heavy winter melt (this is 15-35 minute drive, but on one of two major highways going downtown.

That "flood" (City Creek flood) was something to behold as the community was driven into overdrive and created a man-made river going down Salt Lake Valley's state street (if you run google earth state street goes right into the middle of downtown, with LOTS of businesses. The flood river was pretty long from memory, like 6-10 miles. They built man-made river and then built bridges every block to get across (that is community power!). I remember standing on a bridge, amazed that humans could triumph over nature that well, sometimes.

The flood was bigger than what it says as there was flooding down all major canyon rivers and creeks (everything I-15, which goes into L.A., & east needed to be worried -- again google earth will show you the roads, rivers and creeks --, same with the Jordan River and next to the Great Salt Lake (which had been flooding over and over again for years -- they made a giant drain at one end of the lake and created an evaporation pond to dump excess into. No more floods for the lakes anymore and many flood rivers and creeks areas are cut-off and gone now (put underground).

Good luck to you guys. Hopefully, it lets up.

edit-Damn I was looking and some of the setups are the same except you get tropical (we almost never get tropical monsoons unless a hurricane hits off of California and moves in; otherwise, we get little garbage thunderstorms that cause "local" problems). No cyclones/hurricanes to ever worry about as the mountains would rip a tropical depression to shreds. Snowpack is our "cyclone".

>> ^dag:

The last massive flood in the Brisbane area was in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1974_Brisbane_flood">1974. This is the monsoon season- but most years it just means thunderstorms.
Still raining heavily this morning. Animals are pairing up.

isnt the story of te irish jig a dance trying to be as sexy as it can, within the shackles of the clammy grasp of the catholic church?


>> ^xxovercastxx:

But not all dances are mating rituals. I have a very difficult time finding this sexy, for example. It's hard to believe anyone finds a jig arousing.
Many cultures have war dances in their history and animals also dance to settle territory disputes without violence.
>> ^ctrlaltbleach:
It's been around since life began in my observation so how did it start? Well even animals dance right? Why do they do it? Because spring has hit and its time to procreate. >> ^xxovercastxx:
You are from Salt Lake City, I presume?
>> ^ctrlaltbleach:
Dancing is provocative to begin with, the whole point of dancing is to attract the opposite sex.

But not all dances are mating rituals. I have a very difficult time finding this sexy, for example. It's hard to believe anyone finds a jig arousing.

Many cultures have war dances in their history and animals also dance to settle territory disputes without violence.

>> ^ctrlaltbleach:

It's been around since life began in my observation so how did it start? Well even animals dance right? Why do they do it? Because spring has hit and its time to procreate. >> ^xxovercastxx:
You are from Salt Lake City, I presume?
>> ^ctrlaltbleach:
Dancing is provocative to begin with, the whole point of dancing is to attract the opposite sex.

No LOL I'm from Texas. Besides that I'm really not very religious and I'm not saying dancing is proven to be provocative just my own opinion for why we do it. It's been around since life began in my observation so how did it start? Well even animals dance right? Why do they do it? Because spring has hit and its time to procreate. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with dancing at all its just a courtship ritual in the primitive form. I love the old Lindie Hop myself some dancing is more provocative than others. Why must they be doing a dance thats a directly mimics sex? Also girls are objectified anyway in life why make it worse? Or start it at such an early age. I don't know maybe I'm backwards on this subject but thats the way I look at it. Oh and I'm not 70 either I'm 30.
>> ^xxovercastxx:

You are from Salt Lake City, I presume?
>> ^ctrlaltbleach:
Dancing is provocative to begin with, the whole point of dancing is to attract the opposite sex.

You are from Salt Lake City, I presume?
>> ^ctrlaltbleach:

Dancing is provocative to begin with, the whole point of dancing is to attract the opposite sex.

I'm skeptical.

Never once was McVeigh allowed to speak for himself. I never once heard his voice or saw him speaking the entire time he was being held and tried. Not once.

So why do we get the tapes now?

The more I look at it, the more McVeigh looks like a patsy of the Oswald variety.

On September 28, 2009, Jesse Trentadue, a Salt Lake City attorney, released security tapes that he obtained from the FBI through the Freedom of Information Act that show the Murrah building before and after the blast from four security cameras. The tapes are blank at points before 9:02 am, the time of detonation. Trentadue said that the government's explanation for the missing footage is that the tape was being replaced at the time.

(Wikipedia)

@thinker247

There was a lot at stake on that game. The gold means we beat the record for most gold medals won in the winter olympics, and in 2002 in salt lake city the gold medal game was Canada vs. USA and we won the gold in their nation, people were saying that this was going to be karmic revenge.

Not to mention.. It's Canada and hockey.

I'd love to see the same pictograms judged by someone who isn't a "designer". These images are made to please the fans of the games, not those with an overactive sense of the aesthetic.

I know lots of people would say the Sydney boomerang style ones were a lot cooler than the rather plain Chinese ones. Same goes for the Salt Lake City ones, which this guy seems to fail just because they had straight lines.

Designers, critics, specialists, etc. rarely seem to have the same tastes as the masses these things were made for.

^"Some people may need a religious or religious-like structure to be good, but most don't."

I don't think that is why people are drawn to religion at all. All the religious people I know -- whatever the faith, including New Age woo woo stuff -- seem to be searching for a framework to view life and to give them comfort and support.

For some, that becomes extremely rigid and fundamentalist and is the source of most of the bad stuff from religion. It comforts some people to think that they have the answer and others don't.

Just as it comforts some to bash religion so hard. You know, that is just the flip side of religion -- just as rigid and fundamentalist in their belief that THEY are right.

My brother became a Mormon after going, as a tourist, to the Temple in Salt Lake City. He told me of the huge, beautiful murals in the Temple, all with happy families. Our own family was typically dysfunctional, and my brother was drawn to those images. They were important to him. So he became a Mormon.

Later, in one of the few times he tried to prosyletize me, he said -- they tell me things I have trouble believing. But I choose to have faith.

My brother needed religion to get through this life. It worked for him, he was willing to make the trade-offs between logic and faith, because he needed faith to survive. He has been married almost forty years and he has four grown children who seem to be functioning well, when other kids in the neighborhood weren't so successful.

Just because you don't need that structure and comfort, I don't see why you want to denigrate those who choose it.

And yes, yes, for pity's sake, yes, I know bad things are done in the name of religion. What I am trying to get across is that good things are also done. And I think it is pretty dang weird that ya'll don't just say "yes, some good things are done, isn't that great" and let it lie.

You realize that you sound just as whacko as any True Believer who insists you are wrong for not believing the way they do, don't you? I mean honestly. Look in the mirror and see the shared humanity. How are you different?

This is my crusade, by the way. No different than your crusade. Somehow, we have got to find some way to let others be different than us without it being some sort of sin. Sin against God or sin against logic.

I don't believe in evil or sin. I believe in humanity, with all its warts and all its glories.

From videos like this outsiders might think Utah is a Mormon theocracy (or Morocracy). And that's certainly what the church would like, but Salt Lake City is actually surprisingly liberal, and has a strong gay community. This was a big news story here, and sparked protests. Including kiss-ins, where hundreds of people, both gay and straight, protested by holding hands and kissing on temple grounds. Of course they weren't arrested or thrown out - by this time the church was eager to avoid further embarrassment and bad publicity. The charges against the couple were also dropped.

http://www.sltrib.com/lds/ci_12872004

Don't talk about how "spot on" something is if you have no idea about it. If you really want to know something about the church's history regarding blacks, study this web site: http://www.blacklds.org/history

The government of the United States also has a history of racism and discrimination toward black people, but current members of government aren't accused of being racist just because their organization has a history of racist members. Members of U.S. government are welcome to cite examples from the Civil Rights movement in discussions of civil liberties, although they are part of the very entity that opposed that movement in the past. I don't see this as hypocrisy. I see this as progression.

I do not seek to justify the racist statements made by leaders of the church, but to explain that neither Joseph Smith nor the doctrines of the church were racist in any way, and that the church has long since left behind those policies. There is here an important distinction between policy and doctrine.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints was one of the first religions to baptize and ordain black people. Joseph Smith himself ordained Elijah Abel, a black man, who later became a member of the Quorum of the Seventy, a leadership position holding the High Priesthood, in 1936. Joseph Smith opposed slavery, but is often misunderstood on this subject. Like many religionists of his day, in 1936 he believed that slavery was a curse upon the seed of Canaan, but he did not use this as a justification for slavery. He stated that God would abolish slavery in his own time. In 1944, he ran for president on an anti-slavery platform. http://www.blacklds.org/Aprilma

In March 1842, Joseph Smith wrote the following in a letter on the subject of slavery, "I have just been perusing your correspondence with Doctor Dyer, on the subject of American slavery, and the students of the Quincy Mission Institute, and it makes my blood boil within me to reflect upon the injustice, cruelty, and oppression of the rulers of the people. When will these things cease to be, and the Constitution and the laws again bear rule? I fear for my beloved country mob violence, injustice and cruelty appear to be the darling attributes of Missouri, and no man taketh it to heart! O tempora! O mores! What think you should be done?"

In January 1843, on the "situation of the negro," Joseph Smith said:

"They came into the world slaves mentally and physically. Change their situation with the whites, and they would be like them. They have souls, and are subjects of salvation. Go into Cincinnati or any city, and find an educated negro, who rides in his carriage, and you will see a man who has risen by the powers of his own mind to his exalted state of respectability. The slaves in Washington are more refined than many in high places, and the black boys will take the shine of many of those they brush and wait on." http://www.blacklds.org/quotes#boil

While Joseph Smith was acting as mayor, "a colored man named Anthony was arrested for selling liquor on Sunday, contrary to law. He pleased that the reason he had done so was that he might raise the money to purchase the liberty of a dear child held as a slave in a Southern State. He had been able to purchase the liberty of himself and his wife and now wished to bring his little child to their new home. Joseph said, ‘I am sorry, Anthony, but the law must be observed and we will have to impose a fine.’ The next day Brother Joseph presented Anthony with a fine horse, directing him to sell it, and use the money obtained for the purchase of the child."

"The horse was Joseph’s prized white stallion, and was worth about $500; a huge sum at the time. With the money from the sale, Anthony was able to purchase his child out of slavery."

Concerning the ban on blacks from the priesthood, it would appear that following Joseph Smith's martyrdom, certain members claimed that Smith believed that blacks were not entitled to the priesthood, although the overwhelming flood of evidence suggests that Joseph Smith was not racist, that he was anti-slavery, and that he believed that blacks were entitled to all of the same blessings of the church as other members.

An account of how the priesthood ban on blacks falsely came into being:

1879, Abraham Smoot (the owner of 2 slaves) and Zebedee Coltrin claim Joseph Smith instituted the Priesthood ban in the 1830s (L. John Nuttal diary, May 31, 1879, pg. 170, Special Collections, BYU). The Smoot affidavit, attested to by L. John Nuttall, appears to refer only to a policy concerning slaves, rather than to all Blacks, since it deals with the question of baptism and ordination of Blacks who had "masters". This affidavit says that Smoot, "W.W. Patten, Warren Parish and Tomas B. Marsh were laboring in the Southern States in 1835 and 1836. There were Negroes who made application for baptism. And the question arose with them whether Negroes were entitled to hold the Priesthood. And…it was decided they would not confer the Priesthood until they had consulted with the Prophet Joseph; and subsequently they communicated with him. His decision was they were not entitled to the Priesthood, nor yet to be baptized without the consent of their Masters. In after years when I became acquainted with Joseph myself in Far West, about the year 1838, I received from Brother Joseph substantially the same instructions. It was on my application to him, what should be done with the Negro in the South, as I was preaching to them. He said I could baptize them by consent of their masters, but not to confer the Priesthood upon them" (quoted in Wm. E. Berret, Historian, BYU VP of CES, The Church and the Negroid People).

But Coltrin says the ban was to be universally applied to all blacks. In L. John Nuttal’s Journal (pages 290-293) we find, "Saturday, May 31st, 1879, at the house of President Abraham O. Smoot, Provo City, Utah, Utah County, at 5 O’Clock p.m. President John Taylor, Elders Brigham Young, Abraham O. Smoot, Zebedee Coltrin and L. John Nuttall met. Coltrin: I have heard him [Joseph Smith] say in public that no person having the least particle of Negro blood can hold the Priesthood." According to Coltrin, "…Brother Joseph kind of dropped his head and rested it on his hand for a minute, and then said, ‘Brother Zebedee is right, for the spirit of the Lord saith the Negro has no right nor cannot hold the Priesthood.’… Brother Coltrin further said: ‘Brother (Elijah) Abel was ordained a Seventy because he had labored on the Temple…and when the Prophet Joseph learned of his lineage he was dropped from the Quorum, and another was put in his place. I was one of the 1st Seven Presidents of the Quorum of Seventy at the time he was dropped.’" Coltrin claims that Abel was dropped from the quorum of Seventy sometime before or during 1837 when Joseph Smith Jr. learned that Abel was Black. Apostle Joseph F. Smith successfully argues against this point on the grounds of Abel’s two additional certificates of ordination to the office of Seventy, one dated 1841 and the other from some time in the 1850s after Abel arrived in Salt Lake City. Coltrin’s memory is shown to be unreliable in at least two specifics: His claimed date (1834) for Joseph Smith’s announcing the alleged ban is impossible, since Coltrin himself ordained Abel a Seventy in 1836. Also, he incorrectly identifies which of the quorums of Seventy Abel was ordained to. Abel, on the other hand, claims that "the prophet Joseph told him he was entitled to the priesthood." President John Taylor, on the other hand, said that Abel’s ordination as a Seventy "was allowed to remain". The other element that makes Coltrin’s story suspect is the claim that Joseph didn’t know Abel was black. Anyone who has looked at a picture of Abel has easily identified him as a black man.

From the Council meeting minutes of 4 June 1879 (Bennion papers as quoted in Neither White nor Black, Bush and Maas, Signature Books, pg. 101, note 29.)

Five days after Coltrin related his account: "Brother Joseph F. Smith said he thought brother Coltrin’s memory was incorrect as to Brother Abel being dropped from the quorum of the Seventies, to which he belonged, as brother Abel had in his possession, (which also he had shown brother J. F. S.) his certificate as a Seventy, given to him in 1841, and signed by Elder Joseph Young,Sen., and A.P. Rockwood, and a still a later one given in this city. Brother Abel’s account of the persons who washed and anointed him in the Kirtland Temple also disagreed with the statement of Brother Coltrin, whilst he stated that brother Coltrin ordained him a Seventy. Brother Abel also states that the Prophet Joseph told him that he was entitled to the priesthood."

Because this policy was never explained, many members of the church sought to explain the ban, and they turned out to be very misguided.

President David O. Mckay said in 1954 that “There is no doctrine in this church and there never was a doctrine in this church to the effect that the Negroes are under any kind of a divine curse. There is no doctrine in the church of any kind pertaining to the Negro...it is a practice, not a doctrine, and the doctrine some day will be changed."

In 1988, Elder Dallin Oaks, the man originally quoted in this rant, said "It is not the pattern of the Lord to give reasons...some people put reasons to [the ban], and they turned out to be spectacularly wrong. There is a lesson in that...I'm referring to reasons given by general authorities and elaborated on by others. The whole set of reasons seemed to be uneccessary risk-taking...The reasons turn out to be man-made to a great extent."

In 1981, Elder Bruce R Mckonkie said, "Forget everything I have said, or what … Brigham Young … or whomsoever has said … that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world."

I admire anyone who got through all of that. The same kind of misunderstandings occur on the topic of Native Americans.

I think that the church's past of racism is shameful and sad, but I feel strongly that it has no bearing on the current state of affairs. Many individual members of the church may be racist, but it is not a racist church.

Tags for this video have been changed from 'bill, cant, debate, for, shit' to 'salt lake city, mayor, rocky anderson, billo, cant debate for shit' - edited by EDD

>> ^Issykitty:
I should have worn a bikini in when I was in the airport two days ago, in Salt Lake City.


Nobody would have cared. Kanab is on the other side of the state. The center of Utah leans to the left. As I tell my friends visiting SLC: SLC is fine, just don't visit the surrounding areas (I'm looking at you, Provo).