@bareboards2

Oh, I totally get what you are saying. You've seen my comments in other threads. You know I think there are definitely social issues with how women are both perceived and treated in real life and portrayed in media. Yeah, absolutely, we can look at this story from the perspective of "men behaving badly" because they have the power and they can. And they certainly did. Totally agree with you that it is misogynistic behavior and that we can use the story as an example highlighting social problems and showcasing how one woman tried to turn the tables.

But that's only one perspective to view the story from. We can also view the story as a cautionary tale about Internet safety in the 21st century and comment on how the victim in this case actively (albeit completely unintentionally) contributed to her own victimization. And that's another valid perspective. Personally, I don't see them in conflict, nor do I see the need to shout down one perspective in favor of the other. I could see someone coming along and trying to use the 2nd perspective to negate the 1st (i.e. something along the lines of "she got what she deserved because she behaved like a slut") but ironically a comment like that would only validate the 1st perspective even further.

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I am not here to offend or start arguments.
I'm sorry if my words have done so.
I do empathize.
I understand the abuse they are drawing attention to.

I also understand that this contextual.
I know that the majority of men don't do this.
In no way am I trying to undermine the message here.

"Empathize but don't make it about me?"
I do empathize, which makes it about me.

I know this happens, I didn't deny it. I've just never bared witness to it. This makes me think the per centage of men that do this is quite low. One woman passing 400-500 men on a street and getting called at, is still a low per centage - and that's if it happens every day. If not, the average is even lower. The area or town is also a factor here. A big city in the US, I'm expecting is far more likely to witness this.

Men that do this, really are among the lowest common denominator. I'm honestly shocked that men even let other men still get away with this crap, never mind encourage it between friends.

On the flip side, telling someone to smile, is a completely separate issue. (An exaggeration is "Men in green shirts rape women, lets ban green shirts")

I know they wanted a catchy title for their art piece. I know they wanted people talking about it. So here we are, Talking about it. And what I'm saying is, I see nothing wrong with encouraging someone to smile, in order to brighten their day. Smiles beget smiles. And a person passing some happiness along should not be villainized.

Conservative women lack empathy as much as conservative men.

I read a report from a person who worked in an abortion clinic. The same people were parked in front of the clinic week after week. One woman in particular was vicious to women who came for services.

The worker was surprised when the woman showed up for an abortion. Upset and needing it desperately. Stayed professional, did the service.

Two weeks later, this same woman was out front, yelling just as loud as before.

The disconnect to reality is strong with some of these people. It's a baby being murdered, until you need the service for yourself.

Skyclad
Historically, Witches worked Naked, and there are many references to naked Witches standing on their clothes. In a few illustrations, the Witches are clothed in the clothing of their time, but examination of the drawings indicates that the artist rarely knew a real Witch.
Gardner introduced the term Skyclad into the Craft in the 1950's with the reference to "Witches worship naked which is called in the East (Indonesia), 'Skyclad'" and the term stuck as a poetic way to refer to ritual nudity. Witches worshipped Skyclad in 1950's and today, but in the 70s, the Welsh and American Celtic Witches began to wear robes, which became the standard way to worship for years. By the late '70s, the Feminist Witches began to experiment with Skyclad worship, so by the late 80’s about half of the American and European Witches worship Skyclad.
There are a number of reasons for nudity, the first being that in the Charge, which was written by Doreen Valiente from older sources, The Goddess said,
"And as a sign that ye be truly free, ye shall be naked in your rites."

This Charge is so beautiful that many Witches who reject the Gardnerian Traditions, retain the Charge as one of the few declamations that, if not directly from the Goddess, was unquestionably inspired by Her. Thus, the argument follows that we MUST worship naked because it is the will of the Goddess whom we love.

This argument is countered by a later version of the Charge that says,
"as a sign that ye be really free, ye shall be equal in your rites."
However, this is a later American version not as originally written.
A more convincing counter to the Charge is simply to reject the Charge outright.
Reject all Traditional and Gardnerian ideas, so it is then easy reject nudity as well.

A second reason for ritual nudity is the practical one. Witches all over the world often report that naked is safer.
In rites where I have been robed there have been accidents, incidents where a person stepping on the hem of another’s robe, and causes them to trip. In a nine-foot Circle, if one person goes down, usually all follow.  

Naked people are more aware of their surroundings, so you step more carefully and bang into the Altar and others less than clothed Witches.
You feel the heat of candles, as opposed to not detecting the heat until after your robe is in flames, so it is simply safer to be naked.
At Sabbat where we had three Covens worshipping together in Circle, some were from our Outer Court, so wore robes. During the rite, one woman stood too close to the West candle and set her robe on fire. She did manage to extinguish the flames with little disruption, but I did hear about the accident after the rite ended.

The magickal reason for nudity is that anything worn upon the body will interfere with and change the energy given off by the body. This includes clothes, make-up, perfumes, jewelry, glasses, contact lenses and so on.
This argument is quite logically countered by stating, “energy that can pass through a wall, cover miles of distance, and influence another person would not be stopped by a layer of cloth. “ Consider the greater awareness of your surroundings, being closer emotionally and physicality to the others in the circle. Being able to raise energy without the distraction of avoiding stepping on robes or pulling your sleeve up to keep in out of the candle flame.
Think of the Coven body, mind, and spirit that must generate a tremendous amount of power to send that spell over that distance. Once the Cone of Power is sent the spell won’t be deflected, but it can be deflected at the source by a relatively little. In other words, wearing clothing or non-craft jewelry or non-consecrated materials can easily deflect or alter the power that leaves the Circle. The spell, when it reaches its target, may be different or it may even reach a different target.
Nudity is rarely sexual, after ten minutes the naked Witch becomes bored with seeing bare breasts and genitals and is then free to work. A woman wearing a robe that cuts low in the front and is slit up the side to her hips will introduce into the Coven an attitude of sexual desire to the men as they try to see a nipple or thigh that, by being hidden, is desirable but when revealed by nudity is simply another body part. The men, in this situation, may have difficulty concentrating on the work in an effort to see what is barely hidden. Similar things occur in the female mind when the situation is reversed, though women are often trained to deny these thoughts to others and even to themselves.
There are Psychological factors to Nudity are that the people must accept themselves as they are or change themselves. It is difficult to put on a facade when you are denied a girdle, bra, wig, make-up, deodorant, aftershave, codpiece or other enhancements to your image. Once naked, the individual with their sags, and bulges shines and, becomes themselves and not a mask. 
When working magik, it is vital to know yourself and accept your own good and ill, for to attempt the path with false illusions will cause trouble when your subconscious rebels and forces your work to conform to a hidden truth.
To be naked indicates freedom from conventional mundane thought. When clothed in a suit or dress, you conform to societies expectations and become what they wish you to become. Your style of dress and hairstyle are a reflection, not of your own desires, but of what your peers wish you to be.
Equality between class and gender is assured when naked, as the rich no longer have jewels to show their class worth, and Women must face men as equals, both showing their inadequacies and realizing that the other sex is just as physically imperfect as you are. With this barrier down, men and women can accept each other as equals.
Once naked, you are free to place your mind into a sphere of magickal thought. A place between the worlds where the God and Goddess are not symbols hanging on a wall but REAL DIVINITIES, where all is possible.
It is necessary to be clothed at times; in public or when outdoors in winter it may be necessary to be clothed to allow the mind to concentrate on the goal and not to be thinking that the body is slowly freezing to death.
When this is necessary to wear a robe, it should be one that interferes with magik and mind as little as possible. It is best to wear a plain robe that is exactly the same as all others. To make a personal robe will introduce ego and class or sexual differences into the rite.
There are some uses to wearing robes. The simple act of putting on a robe that is reserved only for Ritual use causes the inner mind to awaken and to develop the attitude that "Now the mundane world is behind me, it is time for the magickal world to appear." This can be very effective to your working and will counter some of the physical drawbacks of wearing robes. If all are wearing identical robes, the attitude of equality within, 'the group' is enhanced, for there is nothing different between the people or sexes.
The robe must also be of a natural material such as cotton or wool since synthetics cause a great deal of interference with the power. A simple list of materials which will interfere with magickal power when worn from the least to the greatest effect is as follows: cotton, wool, conductive metals from silver, gold, copper, iron, synthetic materials such as nylon, or rayon, and Silk though a natural material is a strong magickal insulator.
In today’s world, you will find Witches who work Skyclad, robed, in costumes and even in their street clothes. Street clothes however; bring into the Circle all the influences that have become attached to those clothes over the day. These influences will affect your workings as well as your mind because the subconscious will see no difference between the mundane and the magickal, and as we spend most of our time in the mundane world, it is easy to see which will win.


"Nudity establishes a closeness and honesty among conveners and 'is a sign that a witches loyalty is to the truth before any ideology or any comforting illusions.” Starhawk.

wow missed the fun...I haven't watched the vid yet just read comments.

So at work today one woman told me about her husbands experience with the courts.

He had another child before meeting my co-worker. That mother (when they broke up after two months (they think she was trying to get preggers) said he couldn't see his kid.

well like I woulda done he took it to court. Apperently his laywer said straight up "you have no rights".

Judge agreed. Not only is he not allowed to see his kid but the step dad legally adopted the kid, not sure if the kid even knows.

anyway that quote from the laywer is how I related to all the comments.

watching vid now....EDIT only made 7:30ish can't do it. The mom doesn't have to tell the dad (who has her sundays) what meds shes on? That woman is not acting proffessionally, I don't care if everything she says is true there are ways to act in those settings.Gona read those links now.

All right, so I just went back and read my earlier reply to this, and I think it got a bit too harsh at one point (it was very late, and I was very tired). Sorry about that.

And I'm really sorry about your mom. Seriously. It fucking sucks in so many ways, and nobody should have to go through what you, your mom, and probably many others around you went through due to one horrible sack of shit.

However, it's still only anecdotal. Just like you claimed that the issue shown in this video might individual rather than systemic, and that women as a whole shouldn't be blamed for the actions of one woman.

But that's exactly the kind of judgment you are passing on men.

I mean, conversely, I have my own shitty-ass stories of abuse ...except the villains in all of my stories just happened to be women (no male teacher ever abused me in any way). But I don't necessarily hold that against women as a gender. Sure, I think it might've been exacerbated by the fact that the school system is heavily dominated by women who, when they are pushed into a corner by the incredibly bad system they're stuck with, just have a harder time understanding and relating to young boys than they do young girls. But I don't go on masculinist rants claiming that I was somehow systematically oppressed by women as a group, because that is just crazy-talk (and no, I am not a masculinist, or even MRA (partisanship is for fucking CHUMPS, and I am no chump)).

However, the fact remains that you've brought nothing to this conversations except belligerently stated opinions which you refuse to back up when asked to do so. That's not fair to the people who are talking to you, and it certainly isn't fair to you yourself who is made to look like an idiot because hey; stupid is as stupid does.

If you engage me in a conversation and are able to back your shit up, I will gladly give you the time of day. I may not agree with you - in fact, it's possible that my disagreement will be downright vehement - but I'm going to review your statements and your sources seriously and respond to them (somewhat) seriously.

Unless they are TOO stupid, in which case it is possible that I will point at you and laugh.

If I think your arguments are sound, and believe me when I say that I am fair in this because I push myself hard to stay rational, I will actually tell you that your arguments are sound. And if you actually manage to prove me wrong, I will literally tell you that you proved me wrong. It has been known to happen (exceedingly rarely), and I always manage to stay upfront and honest because the only thing that really matters to me is the truth.

So please don't fucking bail on an argument like that again, because it drives me up the fucking walls.

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands (AP) — A court convicted six people Friday in what prosecutors said was the largest case of human trafficking ever brought to trial in the Netherlands.
Experts said the case could have an impact on Dutch policy because the crimes were committed after brothels were legalized in 2000 in the hope that legitimacy would make it easier for the police to monitor prostitution.

Five of the six convicted men were found guilty of participating in a large, well-established network that kept women in prostitution by force — and with extreme violence.

Some of the victims were compelled to have breast enlargement surgery, and one defendant was convicted of forcing at least one woman to have an abortion. Women were beaten and forced to sit in icy water to avoid bruising. They also were tattooed.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/world/2008-07-11-Dutch-human-trafficking_N.htm

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

Try it from this page: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/03/29/the-one-woman-screwing-up-north-dakota-s-plan-to-end-abortion.html

Your video, One Woman Screwing Up North Dakota’s Plan to End Abortion, has made it into the Top 15 New Videos listing. Congratulations on your achievement. For your contribution you have been awarded 1 Power Point.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

FTR North Dakota sounds kind of awful. Especially for women. This video from here.

YT description continues:

'Arthorsson, who is a civil engineer who works in Trinidad and Tobago had visited his family in the Icelandic capital but was returning home to be with his fiancée on the Caribbean island.
After police removed him from the flight he was taken to Jamaica Hospital where he was treated for alcohol poisoning and luckily for him, Federal authorities declined to prosecute the case.
It was while aboard the New York-bound flight that Arthorsson was duct-taped to his seat by fellow passengers after attacking one woman, spitting on other passengers and screaming the plane was going to crash.
A friend of one of the observing passengers, Andy Ellwood of New York, posted a picture of the subdued flyer to his Tumblr with an account of the incident.
The 'passenger drank all of his duty free liquor on the flight from Iceland to JFK yesterday,' Ellwood wrote.'

There is one woman with her body entirely cut in half.

>> ^Sagemind:

Emotions, hate and everything negative create a killer - thereby emotion, forgiveness and love shall set him free.
...And by free, I mean free to remorse and begin a process of feeling what it is to be human again.
Since negative forces create a killer, condemnation and negativity will never penetrate to hard shell he has around him. The unexpected realization that someone is reaching out, someone you expect only condemnation from can be the chisels to start the first crack of remorse and acceptance that maybe someone out there cares.


Don't get me wrong, I believe that what the man did was wonderful and truly human in a way that the bitterness and hate displayed by the other people miss. However, I feel like it might be jumping the gun interpreting the emotion displayed by this scum as you (and others) have. I'm not saying that there couldn't be healing there, but I also feel like those tears may be more of the selfish and insane attitude that made him a serial killer to begin with.

I'm not sure who said it first, but Carrie Fischer had a great line in her one-woman show: bitterness is like you drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. I agree wholeheartedly that what this man did was far more productive to himself and others than the vitriol spilled by those who couldn't show compassion towards this waste. Still, I understand them and wouldn't trust this man to be anything other than what he clearly is: cold, unfeeling, and already dead.

Not to get gruesome, but this man faced FAR more compelling moments which should have evoked empathy. He faced his victims and strangled them to death (if I googled the right guy, over 90 time) Think about that. He had people in his control who he tortured. They were awake and likely pleading for their lives. Probably women. Imagine their eyes filled with tears as he did whatever horrors he did to them.

To think that a moment of forgiveness from one of his victim's families makes him in any way human is just naive. I am far more likely to believe that his tears were motivated by the same hyper-narcissism that he felt killing his victims. We will never know exactly what was going through his head as he cried in this clip, but I doubt it has anything to do with healing or becoming human. It more than likely has to do with another selfish, "I'm great and this guy gets me" insanity.

All this said, I vacillate on the death penalty. I remember the quote Gandalf says about the subject and find it one of the most compelling anti-death penalty statements: Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.

This guy is about as much of a clear choice of someone I would have no problem putting to death. This isn't OJ for which you could argue that there is tainted evidence... this guy not only admits his horrible guilt, but is verifiable in a much more concrete way. Yet, I can't help but to think that we could learn from him and hopefully good can come of that, either to help prevent the creation of other monsters like him, or at least clues on how to catch them easier.

In the end though I empathize with both sides of those who spoke. I agree that the gentleman who forgave the killer will lead a relatively happier life, in as much as he can having lived through what he did, but I completely understand wanting this man to suffer after what he did to his victims. He is not human, he will never be, and I don't believe his tears are noteworthy as an example of his humanity, but rather curious as a psychopath who smiles or whistles as he inflicts horrors on others.

>> ^bareboards2:

@Porksandwich sweetpea, you didn't listen to it again, did you?
Shrug.


1:16-1:50, he basically agrees that arguing with them is pointless.

3:20-3:35, he says to cover your scene for this stuff. But again what are you accomplishing if a massive wave of people come in bent on trolling? He's already admitted they have no rational thought to it, or are deluded.

So.......not sure what else I am supposed to draw from this. He points out one woman and one project and complains about the harassment toward her. It sounds an awful lot like he expects people who watch his video (since he mentions that his viewers should be watching her stuff too) to go do this on her material.

Guess I'm trolling at this point, because I am clearly not seeing the point of shouting down trolls....it's what they WANT. Much like changing your culture/way of life/choices due to terrorism, you're playing right into what they WANT you to do. Correcting someone who makes a kind of insulting statement who normally doesn't is often rude....so I don't see where his audience could apply this.

I'll do a for example: the honey and sweetpea comes off as condescending whether meant to be or not. Has a "I am addressing a child" tone to it. Normally I'd just overlook it, because I don't expect that from you......BUT applying his example of speaking out against down-talk/harassment/bullying. Is it accomplishing anything? I really doubt it, maybe you just talk that way. Maybe I am overplaying it. If you were purposefully trolling everyone you felt was disagreeing with you..would you stop doing it? Maybe other people like you talking that way and are now going to be pissed I pointed it out, you can't meet everyone's standards. That's why a billion different sites exist on the internet.