This is a perfect place to advertise Jason Mattera's new book: Obama Zombies.

Obviously people don't care for the "DESTROYS" part of the title, so let's vote on a new title. Please PM me with your favorite choice below:

1. Al Franken angry he can't explain bill
2. Al Franken Attacked, Frustrated. VideoSift Angered.
3. Jason Mattera's new book: Obama Zombies
4. Al Franken gets DESTROYED by Tea Bagger on Heath Care Bill
5. Republicans kicking ass!

Just kidding! Believe in Jesus! CaptainPlanet420 OUT!

Obama will come down in history as a master orator.

No he won't. He's barely average as a speaker. Way too artificial. Way too much dependance on his teleprompter. His register is mechanical. His head swinging is distracting. His tone is flat and dull. Only Obama zombies think his speeches are 'great'. What you mean is that he is 'articulate'. He avoids speech flubs like the plague because he knows that is what the far left hated about W. GWB was a much more natural speaker than Obama, but he got mush mouthed a lot and they liked to say it was because he was stupid. Obama doesn't want to be called stupid, so he PAUSES and then he WAITS ... and then he PAUSES so that he can be ... PRECISE and not make a ... MISTAKE! That's not great speaking. It's robotic.

And even the left wing is harping on this particular flub. PotUS's just don't go after the SC. Not ever - let alone in the SotU address. Obama is catching major flak from this. It may be red meat for the far left fringes, but it was stupid of him to do. The totality of the speech? Pretty much as expected. "Wasn't my fault... MY administration... MY program... MY plan... Me me me me me." Speech was a dud.

This thread is all about people who can deal with complexity and nuance, and those who can't.

Was there ever a cop-out so easy to make and so devoid of pith? I trow not. It is ever so when those pesky, nasty, mean old facts and logic end up troubling the counsels of the followers of a pied piper. The persons unable to grasp nuance and complexity in this debate are the ones who are blindly following Obama, and taking everything he says at face value. Obama is in trouble. His numbers are dropping horribly. He's lost the support of the public, and his own party is wobbling.

Last night was not a speech for the public (who he's lost). Not was it a request for Republican cooperation (which he doesn't need). Last night was a warning shot at democrats who are getting nervous at how much the public is against this vague, undefined, secretive, expensive, socialistic bill.

"The time for bickering is over..." That was aimed smack dab at his own party to shut their pie-holes, line up, ignore their angry constituants, and goose-step where he tells them to go. Obama is telling the eroding Democrats in his party anything/everything he thinks he needs to say in order to give them just enough CYA to cram his bill through over the objections of the people. In doing so he's trying to get the entire country to ignore the details. He's trying to soar his bill through with rhetoric alone, and he's hoping there are enough Obama-zombies out there to make it work without too much political blowback.

Obama's claim that the bills do not cover illegals is window dressing. There is more than enough evidence and historical precedent to lend credence to the accusation that the bill will end up covering illegals as sure as the sun rises. I'm sure Obama really BELEVES that just because it 'says it' in the bill then that means the issue has been dealt with. Actually taking the time and effort to make his bogus claims reality is for his minions and flunkies to deal with at some unknown future time...

Generally the more that people get healthcare, the longer they live. The longer they live, the longer and more productive members of society they are.

As far as human health care is concerned, there are only two 'blocks' of people identified (A) by how much they produce and (B) by how much health care they consume. Block 1 is age 17 to 64 which produces the bulk of a nation's GDP, and consumes (on average) low amounts of health care. Block 2 is the very young and the very old which produce low amounts of wealth, and consume the bulk of the nation's health care. The claim 'the longer you live the more productive you are' is untrue. As far as a socialized medical system is concerned, it would be ideal if human beings died the second they stopped working so they wouldn't be freeloading off the system.

Generally when someone goes to the hospital when they don't have healthcare, it's because it's do or die.

In a word - baloney. Here's a story about a guy that calls the ambulance rides for every little tiny thing.
http://www.wgrz.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=69029&catid=37&provider=email
And his story is NOT all that unusual. Sure, he takes it to the furthest extreme perhaps, but everyone runs to the doctor for every little cough, ache, or twinge. That includes poor people with no insurance who end up getting free doctor visits on the tab of the honest paying citizens who play by the rules. When you have no insurance you don't just 'not go' to the doctor in the U.S. You go anyway and it's free. Sure, the office tries to get you to pay. But if you can't pay they just make it up off the insurance compaines.

All I'm saying is that there's not any real evidence that a social system is going to result in one red cent of savings. It is also NOT a given that it will result in 'more people being covered'. The devil is in the details, and Obama's plan is being rushed through pell-mell without due dilligence by the media, the Congress, or anyone else who should be putting the brakes on this mess. The 'stimulus' plan was rammed through with no watchdog, and look what a fiasco that has been. Government should never be allowed to do things in haste (ahem Iraq War ahem!). When goverment acts hastily, the people should stand up and shout NO. Haste is the enemy of sensible policy.

who are these people who want a public option to assuage their guilt

Quite simply, anyone who wants to vote for a health care plan with no testing, no fact checking, no peer reviews of efficacy, and no attempt to apply the rigor of science, analysis, and cost effectiveness - AND IT MUST BE DONE THIS YEAR OMG OH NOS! Though I will have to ammend my statement that there is only ONE kind of person who'd do this... There are really TWO kinds of people... 1. Is the guilt-addled neoliberal (like you perhaps?) who votes for any socialist system that comes down the pike. 2. Is the brain-dead Obama-zombie neoliberal lemming who just dutifully follows the wash of "Me too!" propoganda that gives him his marching orders. Obama sent out his orders this week to his army of lemmings. Guess the community agitator didn't like it very much when the community was agitating against HIS plans...

>> ^Winstonfield_Pennypacker:
I see whining about using B-Hussain-O's middle name... I see whining about "but Obama's deficit is STIMULUS..."... I see pointless diversions saying "Bush!" when no one is debating that Bush sucked.
What I don't see is any substantive denial of the fact that Obama is - in fact - increasing the deficit faster than any President in US history. Because he is. Quit being such Obama zombies and at least try to scrape together the gonads to have some intellectual honesty.


Shhh... This is the happy moment, when we're all supposed to love the man. Eventually, popular opinion will turn, THEN we can all look back and say how much we've always hated him and his deficit spending. You're getting ahead of the regularly scheduled programmed emotional response. It's not about intellect. It's about emotion and HOPE! HOPE, for the FUTURE! And OTHER meaningless inspirational sayings and platitudes! Now is not the time for THOUGHT, now is the time for LOVE! WEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

I see whining about using B-Hussain-O's middle name... I see whining about "but Obama's deficit is STIMULUS..."... I see pointless diversions saying "Bush!" when no one is debating that Bush sucked.

What I don't see is any substantive denial of the fact that Obama is - in fact - increasing the deficit faster than any President in US history. Because he is. Quit being such Obama zombies and at least try to scrape together the gonads to have some intellectual honesty.

In essence, they agree with Obama because they feel he is a good guy, rather than agreeing with him because his policies match theirs. In a similar sense, QM believes that people disagreed with Bush solely because they didn't like him as a person.

Some of us are amazed that people are so desperate to smoke Obama's used toilet paper DESPITE the overwhelming evidence that he's a cheating, lying, unlikable, business as usual Chicago thug pol. Over the past few days alone he has shown an apalling lack of grace. Opposing agendas are labeled with propogandistic slurs. He insults other points of view. He gets angry with media when they ask him 'real' questions. He wails doom and gloom and uses scare tactics. He breaks his promises. He hides substantive errors in judgement with glib dismissals. Some other pol acting like this bozo would be pilloried (and rightly so).

I can only deduce two reasons for this incredible lack of intellectual honesty regarding Obama...

ONE: Unlike Bush, the media ignores his blunders, hides his gaffes, and gives him kid glove treatment instead of hard journalism. With the media abandoning its credibility in an effort to carry his water, it leaves the the unthinking, ignorant, and intellectually lazy masses believing he's a 'great guy' in spite of plentiful evidence to the contrary.

TWO: A bunch of people sucked into the Obama hype machine are now mentally and socially invested in the man. They praised him because he could 'talk good'. It was shallow, but they are on the record for it and so they want him to be good for no other reason than he is 'thier guy'. Call it buyer's remorse, or desperation, or whatever. The end result is that Obama could go out tomorrow and club baby seals to death with his bare hands and they'd still apologize for him. They just can't bring themselves to admit that they were wrong.

These are the Obama zombies. Such persons will clink glasses of Flavor-aid as they use the audacity of hope to leap onto the Hale-Bopp comet and fly through Heaven's Gate.

Of course there's nothing wrong with shaking a Marine's hand and the Marine responding. But you know what? There's nothing 'cool' or special about it either. President's don't regularly stop to shake the hands of the honor guards because if they did they'd be doing it ALL FREAKING DAY. Every time the President gets of a chopper, a boat, a plane, or out of his car he'd be stopping to shake the hands of his honor guard. So they don't do it often - DUH. Do you stop to shake the hand of every Wal-Mart greeter? Every cashier? Every grocery store stocker? Every janitor?

So the manchild Barry gets zero props for this stunt. Maybe he was being nice. More likely he was just doing a deliberate photo op. Either way to pretend like he's somehow 'cool' or 'real' or anything for doing it is stupidity. Just like his fake apology for the Daschle fiasco. You want to be an Obama zombie and wet yourself with pleasure over these pathetic attempts at 'genuineness'? Go ahead. All it does is prove you're a tool.

I giggled myself silly when I read this comment. Leaving Bush out of it, the hero worship is HILARIOUS. Calm down, ladies and gentlemen. Someone is going to get trampled in the rush to lick Obama's handsome, eloquent, apologetic feet.

>> ^Winstonfield_Pennypacker:
Get real everyone. Barak Obama himself had NOTHING to do with the vetting process except the initial "check this guy". Do you think the President has the time to go do the literal mountain of fact-finding needed for the hundreds of people in his administration? Here is what really happens... AIDE1: "Mr President we checked and Tom Daschle looks OK." OBAMA: "OK, let's go" (fist bump).

And as far as the "Oh wow - that's how a President should act"... You people must rent yourselves out as Hoovers you are such suck-ups. Bush accepted blame & apologized for a lot of things, but you never cut him one inch of slack. Now you're all falling over yourselves to say how wonderful Obama is for doing it. What a bunch of brainless Obama-zombie tools. Your two-facedness and partisan hack nature make you completely pathetic sell-outs.

I never at any time during Bush2 would sell-out my principles. Bush did TONS of things I thought were incredibly stupid and I said so. Farm subsidies, immigration 'reform', education bill, reckless spending and a bazillion other things. And I want him held responsible and blamed for all that crap, so when he did them I criticized him like he deserved for being an over-spending jackass. But you Obama-zombies... Obama could re-open Gitmo2 under the name "Obamaland" (which he probably will) and you'd say he was a genius. Obama could declare war based on faulty intelligence and you'd fall over yourselves to be the first person in line to french-kiss his duodenum.

Winstonfield_Pennypacker says"
" Bush accepted blame & apologized for a lot of things, but you never cut him one inch of slack. Now you're all falling over yourselves to say how wonderful Obama is for doing it. What a bunch of brainless Obama-zombie tools. Your two-facedness and partisan hack nature make you completely pathetic sell-outs. "

Bush accepted blame for some things, as he was leaving. I can't remember any time Bush took any meaningful responsibility in a timely manner. If he had, he would have less to regret as he left.

There was little Bush ever did that wasn't blatantly partisan, and you're criticizing the other partisan side for not ever being behind him? Well, that's brilliant.

When a democrat wins in places like Indiana and North Carolina, the election trasncends the partisan. This country wants him to fix the mistakes the made by his predecessor and previous congresses. It's not just democrats that want this to happen. You act like you don't understand this.

You're a moron. The way you write makes you look like a right wing moron, which makes you look even dumber.

I like Obama. I voted for Obama. I can be happy for Obama. I can be happy for the change in atmosphere. You seem upset. You must not have voted for Obama. Sucks to be you, I guess. Might as well accept it and get over it, dude.

"You've sold out logic, reason, and even common sense in the name of blind partisan fanboism."

You're acting like a loser. I'm sorry for your loss. If you're going to be a cry-baby, why don't you just take your ball and go home?

This administration was drastically different from the last one on day one. This is another example of how and why. Most of us who don't have REAL obsessions (like yours) can recognize that. You're the only "fanboi" here - the anti-fanboi. You're so edgy, dude.

Extreme! Let's flex our penises to show how extreme we are.

ps. Like it or not, this is history. There's already songs written for him, and his face on all kinds of merchandise, and his name being used for all kinds of different things. It's probably as embarrassing to him as it is to me, but you can't sit around expecting it to stop, because the man made history.

>> ^Winstonfield_Pennypacker:
I could list a billion Bush apologies and it wouldn't matter jack to Obama-zombies.



Of course Bush apologized for a lot of things, but not for the things people were criticizing him for.

He didn't apologize for invading Iraq under false pretenses, he apologized for displaying a "Mission Accomplished" banner too soon.

He didn't apologize for the government's handling of Katrina nor did he say that the FEMA director was less than effective in his allocation of resources... he apologized for not landing Airforce 1 in Louisiana instead of flying over it.

It isn't that Bush didn't apologize for anything, it is that he very often missed the point (almost intentionally at times). Sure, Obama could say "I'm sorry that the people I chose to check out Tom Daschle screwed up", but he didn't. He took responsibility for the actions of those under him, the same way a platoon sergeant is still responsible for the actions of those under his leadership, even when the platoon sergeant isn't directly involved in the screw-up.

There is a point to be made that many people are/were too critical of Bush at times, but I really can't see a reason to criticize Obama for accepting responsibility for the actions of those under his command.

Name one thing (other than failing to dismantle Social Security) for which he apologized and quote a verifiable source.
Katrina: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8az4CfEDpw
Prison abuse: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1875191
Economic downturn: http://ca.news.finance.yahoo.com/s/01122008/2/biz-finance-bush-apologizes-financial-crisis-says-economy-recover.html
To a certain extent even the Iraq War: http://abcnews.go.com/WN/Politics/story?id=6354012&page=1

But I could list a billion Bush apologies and it wouldn't matter jack to Obama-zombies. Just keep splooging on each other over Obama's 'apology' for something he had nothing to do with. And please quit apologizing for it. Just accept it. You've sold out logic, reason, and even common sense in the name of blind partisan fanboism. You're Obama-whipped. Just admit it. If Obama took out a gun on national TV and started shooting puppies you'd thank him for ending the 'future rabid dog menace'.

Get real everyone. Barak Obama himself had NOTHING to do with the vetting process except the initial "check this guy". Do you think the President has the time to go do the literal mountain of fact-finding needed for the hundreds of people in his administration? Here is what really happens... AIDE1: "Mr President we checked and Tom Daschle looks OK." OBAMA: "OK, let's go" (fist bump).

And as far as the "Oh wow - that's how a President should act"... You people must rent yourselves out as Hoovers you are such suck-ups. Bush accepted blame & apologized for a lot of things, but you never cut him one inch of slack. Now you're all falling over yourselves to say how wonderful Obama is for doing it. What a bunch of brainless Obama-zombie tools. Your two-facedness and partisan hack nature make you completely pathetic sell-outs.

I never at any time during Bush2 would sell-out my principles. Bush did TONS of things I thought were incredibly stupid and I said so. Farm subsidies, immigration 'reform', education bill, reckless spending and a bazillion other things. And I want him held responsible and blamed for all that crap, so when he did them I criticized him like he deserved for being an over-spending jackass. But you Obama-zombies... Obama could re-open Gitmo2 under the name "Obamaland" (which he probably will) and you'd say he was a genius. Obama could declare war based on faulty intelligence and you'd fall over yourselves to be the first person in line to french-kiss his duodenum.

Well, at least you tried to answer me. D+ for effort?

>> ^Winstonfield_Pennypacker:
So stop calling all of us Obama zombies, like we're so enthusiastic that we don't have independent thought.
I look at the comments on Obama, the slavish cheerleading, the instant knee-jerk rejection of ANYTHING that criticizes him - no matter how legitimate - and can come to no other conclusion. For example on this 'transparency' thing. Bull! He's already started off secretive and opaque. Obama's past records are still sealed up, his role as a 'community organizer' is still shrouded. And he chews out any journalist who dares to ask him a REAL question about like why he put a lobbyist on his cabinet when he said he wouldn't allow lobbyists. Or like putting a tax-dodger in charge of the treasury. Bush would (rightfully) be excoriated for such stupidity, but Obama zombies give his a total pass. Obamaniacs actually do seem to have abandoned all rational thought.
Hypocrisy. Pure hypocrisy. Democrats howled and whined and opposed reflexively anything Bush did for 8 years and now that thier guy is in they want everyone to shut up. Cram it, Obama Zombies. You know who you are. I never swallowed the Flavor-Aid on Bush. I hated his spending and a ton of his moronic policies. Bush was a lousy fiscal President. I said so all during his Presidency. Grow a pair Obama-zombies and criticize Obama for being a jackass hypocrite on 'transparency' when his administration is anything but.