Hey JustSaying,

Appreciate you saying that, I like you too and I haven't taken offense to anything you've said. I understand where people are coming from who don't believe, because I used to be a nonbeliever. The only reason I say anything on here about God is because it's my hope that someone could make that connection to Him and have the abundant life that Jesus promised, and that He would get the glory for it. What do you mean about being a disappointed idealist, by the way?

I'm not voting for Trump, I see through the Christian act..I don't have much faith in the promises he has made. I live in the real world, but there is more going on than what we can see. I base my decisions on my convictions about that, not really the political or social or economic situations. I care about these things but there is a deeper reality going on that is beyond my individual desires.

Somewhat disappointed that he didn't include my personal favorite argument against Pascal's Wager: conflicting faiths.

Instead of a 4-cell chart (2x2 from believe/don't believe and god exists/doesn't), the chart should arguably be a LOT bigger. Plenty of individual branches of Christianity will tell you that *their* specific brand is the only one that will get you into heaven. And that's just relatively minor distinctions -- different sorts of Protestants, or Protestants vs Catholics, etc. We haven't even got to Christianity vs Judaism vs Islam -- all of which fall under the "Abrahamic" umbrella -- but very few Christian faiths think that Jews or Muslims are just as eligible to enter heaven as they are (or vice-versa). From there you can get to things as disparate as Hindu vs Ancient Egyptian vs Zoroastrianism, and everything else.

With that sort of chart, it is just as easy to say that choosing to believe in the *wrong* god could possibly be associated with a more negative outcome than washing your hands of it and going Atheist. Maybe I chose to believe in Ra the Sun God when Zeus ends up being the one true deity. Come to find that Zeus, as it turns out, tolerates people who don't believe in him as long as they don't believe in one of his competitors (like Ra). Therefore I get a lightning bolt to the keyster and a trip to Hades while my nonbeliever buddy gets a ticket to Elysium.

Of course it's all a load of bollocks, but if your argument is a load of bollocks (like Pascal's wager) you don't get to complain when somebody flips it on its head and uses it to argue the exact opposite...

Hey Messenger. We’ve gone around the mulberry bush a few times on these issues. Instead of debating this with you, I will just pray for you instead, that God will reveal Himself to you. Then you can tell me whether God answers prayer or not.

"To me, these two statements are mutually exclusive.
Either 1 Corinthians 2:14 is right and atheists cannot see God, or Romans 1:20 is right and atheists can see God, but refuse to do so."

They’re both right; nonbelievers cannot see or understand God at all, except for the revelation that God gives them individually. Note what it says just before in Romans 1:19:

Romans 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, "because God has shown it to them."

God makes it plain to them, so that they can see and understand certain things about God which could lead them to make a positive decision to believe in Jesus Christ.

I think the author of this video, and presumably the Christians who have spoken to him, have a fundamental misunderstanding about what the bible says about atheists or those who don't believe. I don't know why messenger seems to think this was my argument for theism; I don't recall saying anything like this to anyone on this site, although I could be wrong.

What I believe is that yes, atheists are not able to see or comprehend the things of God because they are spiritually discerned:

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

But that isn't the end of the story:

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Romans 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Romans 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

So, the colorblind person is given glimpses of Gods power and deity, through the creation, and other kinds of revelation such as in their conscience, to know that there is a God who created them and that they are accountable to Him. If it were simply that nonbelievers couldn't see God, they would have an excuse. Yet, that isn't what the bible says. In the end it's not that nonbelievers can't see God, it's that at some point in their lives they have seen God and rejected Him.

Most atheists I've spoken to have had supernatural experiences for which they cannot write off with materialistic explanations. Some will even change from atheism to theism in the course of a conversation because they suddenly realize that they had suppressed the truth of their own experience. God can and does give ample evidence of His existence and everyone at some point in their life will see it clearly and have a clear choice to make. It's when you choose to suppress the truth that you become self-deceived. It's not up to me to prove to someone God exists; it is up to me simply to be a faithful witness and pray they would respond to the revelation they already have.

Nonsense.

If you were a true Christian, you'd follow the laws of the old testament too.
I presume you don't go into town everyday and put people of other religions to the sword?

I want to address this scripture quotation first:

Matthew 5:17

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

You have fundamentally misunderstood what Jesus is saying here. What do you think He is talking about? What do you think He means when He said He came to fulfill the law? Please elaborate.. This, however, is what He was talking about:

John 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

He fulfilled what the law and prophets said about Him on the cross.

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

What did they write concerning Him?

Luke 24:25 And he said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!

Luke 24:26 Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?"

You need to understand what was written about Jesus and how He fulfilled it before you can understand what He was talking about.

Your misunderstanding of the gospel and Old Testament law not withstanding, a true Christian is not under the old covenant, they are under the new covenant.

Romans 10:4-10 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them.

But the righteousness based on faith says, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) "or 'Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).

But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim);
because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

The old covenant is for Israel, the new covenant is for the whole world. Christians are not under law, but grace.

Romans 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

So you can drop the "no true scotsman" fallacy....

It's funny you would invoke this fallacy, yet state earlier "If you were a true Christian.." Yet, according to Jesus, there are true and false Christians:

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

A true Muslim follows Allah, and Allah has instructed his followers to exterminate all of the nonbelievers.

While I find it intriguing that Bill Maher is defending Christianity in this clip, I find it even more intriguing that @hpqp is defending Maher defending Christianity in this clip. I double-checked to see if the apocalypse had begun before writing this post.

That said, I would like to interject a very basic fact, which is that immoral and corrupt behavior is natural to humans, regardless of what belief system they might claim. Therefore we must evaluate any particular belief system by what it teaches (and ultimately on truth):

If you want to evaluate Islam, look at the Quran. The reason there is radicalized Islam is because the Quran commands holy war against nonbelievers, especially Jews and Christians. It commands them to be murdered and says that even the rocks and trees will cry out against them. I am not condemning Muslims for being Muslim, but I will say that the Quran teaches them things which are contrary to the will of God. 200 hundred thousand Christians are martyred every year, many of them by Muslim extremists.

If you want to evaluate Christianity, look at the teachings of Jesus Christ and His apostles. If everyone followed what Jesus taught, there would be no violence at all. There would be harmony between the nations, the poor would be fed, clothed and sheltered, and everyone would love one another.

I noticed someone pointed out that the bible teaches that anyone practicing certain sins should be killed. Yes, that was the law in Israel for that particular time, but that was under the Old Covenant between God and the Jews. God made a New Covenant with the entire world through Jesus Christ which does not include those laws.

God bless

>> ^Quboid:

Shiny, why do you post stuff?
If you are posting to try to persuade people that your God is the one true God, you are being counter-productive. You are pushing people away from your belief. Whether or not your posts have any merit, whether or not you are right, people see your posts and think that Christians are a tiresome bunch of self-righteous bores.
It doesn't even come down to how convincing your arguments are any more - you are putting people off God. You are diminishing the sum total of Earth's belief in your God. I imagine you watch videos like this with the same impotent anger that I feel when I watch a video about a "gay" 4 year old being killed but ask yourself - is harming your religion really what you want to be spending your time doing? What will you say to St. Peter at the Gates, "I tried but I actually put people off. Sorry 'bout that."?


I don't think he understands that/how he is putting people off. I suspect he's been raised or taught by an almost old-fashioned zealot type; nonbelievers deserve to live in shame and scorn, that kind of thing. I imagine someone who looks like kenneth from 30 rock but instead of being super nice, he's super religious, walking around quoting the bible at people.

I'm no mind reader. There is just a certain light that I can see that identifies someone as Christian. I can usually tell before I even speak with someone. It doesn't mean I can tell what people believe beyond that. It's only a dichotomy between believers and nonbelievers.

>> ^Stormsinger:

I for one seriously hope Jesus comes back to take them away because they're so faithful. I can't wait for his glorious return when he delivers the nonbelievers from annoying people.

>> ^westy:

If my therapist ( if i had one) brought god in to a sessoin i would tell her to fuck off and ask for her to be sacked. like if you went to a therapist and thay started bringing postman pat into something.


If they're asking you how you feel about God or religion then they're doing their job. These are things that will probably have a major effect on how the therapist approaches your treatment.

If they tell you that you need God, especially after you've indicated that you're a nonbeliever, then walk out the door.

Your ignorance is sadly typical, but perhaps curable. There's no need to 'lie' about islam and the quran, they are their own worst enemies.

The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm

You are presently duped into defending a pedophile warlord and the defective and inferior civilizations that are the best islam can produce. More studying on your part is required.


>> ^9547bis:


>> ^quantumushroom:
by its own "holy" book, islam demands one of 3 choices for faithful muslims encountering infidels: kill, convert or enslave. A fourth option is to pretend to assimilate into a society, until the muslim minority becomes a majority. Then, enact sharia law.
islam = freedom fail

Exactly! Which is why Muhammad invaded everyone. Ho, wait, the Muslim expansion wasn't during his lifetime.
But yeah, after that they choked all other faiths. Ho wait, it was actually forbidden to convert for two hundred years. Anyway, after that they sure enslaved all those infidels. Well except the Jews. And the Christians. And, erm, the Mazdaists.
Ha damnit, I have to give it to you QM, I can't lie as well as you do (-:

I doubt it..want to have a bible-off? In my mind, if you truly understood the Word you never would have abandoned Him. Also, that no one can comprehend the bible without the Spirit.

I am not so thin skinned, btw..but I am conscious of having Gods name dragged through the mud..

how about we start over and see where the thread takes us?

>> ^longde:
hehe. An atheist quoting the bible is a bit like a prisoner suing the victim of his crime.
I'm not an atheist, but I certainly don't believe in Christiantiy, and I got here from being a devout christian from the cradle to high school. I dare say I know the bible better than you do, having studied it at length and daily for all those years.
It just strikes me as strange that you are put off at scorn from nonbelievers. At least you are honest, though. I'm not saying I was never wary of being made fun of when I proselytized people. But back then, it was face-to-face; while today you have an anonymous handle and avatar to hide behind.

hehe. An atheist quoting the bible is a bit like a prisoner suing the victim of his crime.

I'm not an atheist, but I certainly don't believe in Christiantiy, and I got here from being a devout christian from the cradle to high school. I dare say I know the bible better than you do, having studied it at length and daily for all those years.

It just strikes me as strange that you are put off at scorn from nonbelievers. At least you are honest, though. I'm not saying I was never wary of being made fun of when I proselytized people. But back then, it was face-to-face; while today you have an anonymous handle and avatar to hide behind.

Id say religious people have different political priorities as well. Obama would not be president if only non-believers voted for him.
>> ^bmacs27:
The reason nonbelievers don't organize is because we all have different political priorities. Why would you organize if you don't want the same things?

I sort of want to parody this video where all the missionary work everyone complains about suddenly disappears. Then all the people in the video start dying of horrible diseases from the dirty water, or starving to death because they don't know how to properly irrigate their fields...

I like the comparison to overzealous vegans... this whole thing is getting old. Yes, people lobby for religious interests. There's also a meat lobby. Leave me alone, I won't sign your petition, and I don't have any money. To Dawkins and the rest, the public trust pays you to research biology, not pontificate on teapots from outer-space.

The reason nonbelievers don't organize is because we all have different political priorities. Why would you organize if you don't want the same things?