>> ^blankfist:

I bet if they opened the market up to first class mail, you'd see some rather great options being created. Maybe not all at once, but over time.
But as it is now it's illegal to offer first class mail services in the US unless you're the US Government. What kind of bum deal is that?


Ya, a relic of eras gone by. Perhaps a good idea when you needed a central network of ponies to run a country. Not so necessary nowadays. I think the Mayan's had a foot version of the pony express. But it really has outlived it usefulness. I remember some other stories of kids starting a local mailing route to be faster than snail mail for in city deliveries. They were subsequently shut down because it is a legal monopoly. If you want to stifle things, get government involved, it works! Speaking of, lets get the government to do the internet, that should work well.

As you may have notice, this message is very long. Please take a while and read it a few times, in chunks, before you respond. I ask a lot of questions here so I’d like it you pretended as if you were asking the questions to yourself.

I should have qualified my statement about religions. I meant to clarify that in the Persian and Pre-Rome regions of the world, which were primarily Pagan, a huge majority of the religions didn’t have religious structures that were based around fear, for the most part. Yes, I admit that there was the concept of retribution from the gods but it wasn’t anything to the degree of everlasting punishment. I currently don’t know anything about the religions of the very early Americas (Mayans, etc). It wasn’t until the god concepts became more personalized and more humans that it became more about fear. There is a natural progression in the ideological development in religions that goes from being nothing about humans to being all about humans. Eternal suffering or anything resembling a “hell” is relatively new and came about around the time of monotheistic religions.

Let me ask you a question. Why do you trust your personal revelation?

I ask this because I used to be very “spiritual” and I’ve even had out-of-body experiences, experiences that I can only call past life regressions. I grew up in a practicing Christian family and I have memories of experience that I can only call “personal revelation”. I’ve come to a lot of reasons why I shouldn’t trust those personal revelations; I want to know if you’ve come to understand how the human brain is very easily tricked into irrational behaviors and beliefs (not just religious)

You say that this has been an ongoing revelation since you were 14. If you had not had this history of personal revelation at all and it came to you suddenly today, would you find it believable? I imagine that you’re beliefs have been challenged many times. Are you certain that the strengthening effect of the challenges aren’t just from the boomerang effect, caused by a need to justify something that you feel committed to?

Here is another great question. How much of your belief system is tied to your identity; how much do you identify with it, personally or socially? Meaning, if you came to disbelieve what you now believe, would you know who you are or would you have a sort of identity crisis? If you stopped believing as you do now, do you feel that you would you lose a part of who you are?

You ask a good question in “Maybe it is you who is delusion and I see things as they actually are.” Yes, perhaps I am and perhaps you are and perhaps we both are. So how can we know, how would we find out, what kinds of tests and experiments could we do to illuminate the answer. It isn’t good enough to simply say that we both might be delusional; therefore our views are equally valid. Either one of us is correct and the other is not, or we are both incorrect.
You know, I used to have a dualistic view on the nature of humans. I used to believe in the soul or the spirit as something separate from the body. I used to resonate heavily with the lyrics of Tool and the ideas behind the art of Alex Grey.

I guess my biggest question would stem from this statement that you made
“My faith is that i have a spirit, a soul, a divine spark that is connected to the ALL, the ONE, also known as "the source".”
What makes you think that there is an “ALL”, a “ONE” or “the source” and how do you know that you’re not just fooling yourself? What would it mean if you discovered that it’s probably not true, and that the real explanation for the subjective experiences that you’ve had are far more elegant and interesting than the ideas of spirituality that you currently hold?

To be blunt, I don’t think that you’re thinking this whole notion of an ego through far enough. It sounds like you’re just accepting the ideas as being true without going through the motions of analyzing what the concept implies. The notion of an ego implies several things; one of which is that we as humans are special to the degree that we have egos when, either, other animals don’t, or, other animals are better than us in controlling it. The questions then become, do other animals have egos? If so, how does the ego operate in them? Do other life forms, such as plants or bacteria, also have egos, or does the ego require a certain degree of cognitive function? If the ego does require certain cognitive functions to be noticeable, and since we are extremely closely related to other apes such as chimpanzees, do they also exhibit features of having egos? If they don’t and having an ego is strictly a human feature, what happened during the development of the brain that allowed for the access to what we might call the ego and at this point, do we really believe that the “ego” is actually something that exists outside of the brain? If it doesn’t exist outside of the brain than how can we separate who you perceive as yourself and what you perceive as the “ego”? Are all “ego’s” the same or is it brain dependent with variations depending on brain structure and chemistry? Can you see why I would say that the notion of the ego as something outside of or separate from oneself is inherently egotistical.

The way that you talk about the ego makes it seem mystical and somehow separate from “self”. To me, that sounds like someone trying to escape responsibility. Why not just cut out the middle man and admit that you, not your ego, has the tendency to be possessive, needy, insecure, wishes for self-aggrandizement, etc. The notion that “negative” qualities are part and partial of some sort of external thing that is separate from “you” just seems childish to me, not to mention, completely unsupported by research.

For myself, I suppose that I recoil at the idea of an “ALL”, or “ONE”, or “the source” because it doesn’t really answer any questions. If someone were presenting these ideas to me for the first time, I would immediately start asking questions like “What is it made out of, what kind(s) of particles?” “How does it perpetuate?” “What is the physics of this thing?” “By what mechanism does it connect to everything?” “How does a source not also have its own source?” “What tests and experiments can we do to learn more about this thing?” “What objective information do we have about it?” “Does this thing operate differently between animate and inanimate objects?” “If spirit or soul is inherent in the system, do animals and plants also have a spirit or soul?” “What exactly constitutes as a spirit or soul, what can it be defined by?” “Did “the source” have a beginning or a history?”

I think you understand my point. My problem with subjectively believing something is true is that it’s more susceptible to not going far enough in scrutiny. It is much easier to subjectively believe something that feels good or feels right and not go any further than that. Very few subjective beliefs translate into objective or rational understandings of nature; it’s very easy to get it wrong. Subjective beliefs are as prone to fallibility as humans are to irrational thinking.


In reply to this comment by enoch:
hmmmm..
i disagree with your statement that only the monotheistic religion control by fear.
buddhism (yes..buddhism) shinto,mayan,toltec,arminianism,zoroastriasm..the list is legion and they ALL have punishment/reward doctrine.each at varying degrees but its in there.

i do enjoy hearing an atheists perspective on how my faith translates.
very..analytical of you my friend.
suffice to say my faith is born from personal revelation and has been an ongoing revelation since i was 14.
nothing i have encountered or experienced has taken away from this revelation,in fact it has strengthened it.
could i be delusional?
i guess its possible.
or maybe it is you who are delusional and i see things as they actually are.
not trying to be an ass,just pointing out the subjective nature of this particular polemic.

i guess..in its most simplest of terms.
my faith is that i have a spirit,a soul,a divine spark that is connected to the ALL,the ONE,also known as "the source".
freud believed that the ego WAS who you were.i could not disagree with that more.
the ego is who you THINK you are.predicated and perpetrated by those who are close to you.
we cant help that.it is very human.
so around 12 yrs old we start to have a sense of self.this self understands the world and how he/she interacts with it by rules set by his/her parents.
as we grow older so does the circle of influence i.e:friends,lovers,teachers etc etc.
think about this for a second because i am expressing a very huge idea in a very short amount of time and glossing over all the implications of said idea.

my philosophy..or my faith if you will,views the ego as my "false" self.
the ego wishes only to validate itself (thats why mass marketing is very VERY effective).
the ego wishes to perpetuate its own existence by way of constant feed-back.
the ego gets jealous and possesive.
the ego gets insecure and needy.
the ego has demands...and desires...which seek only for self aggrandizement.
now societal roles consisting of compassion and empathy will,and can,curb the destructive nature of the ego (think your teenage years and just how self centered you were to give you an idea of ego gone wild)

through my faith and discipline i am quite aware of my ego and have suppressed it to the point where it no longer manipulates my thinking nor my emotions.
so i have no urge nor a desire to be perceived as "correct" because to me that is irrelevant.
(though i do prefer to be "corrected" if i misstate something).
i do not experience jealousy,nor envy.
but i do experience pride.
i do not allow anothers limited perception of me based on their own subjective reasoning influence how i feel about who i am.
i am open and honest because my faith is that we are all connected with the divine and to lie,steal or cheat you is to be doing to myself also.
i do not judge anothers faith or lack of it because that is THEIR path and the only time i ever feel the need to intercede is when it flows into my domain and affects me in some way.

even as i write these words,which to me seem pretty articulate and clear,i know that you will understand them based solely on..well..your understanding.
i do not say that as a slight but rather a statement.
trying to convey complex thought patterns by way of text can be so..limiting.

everything i do or say i do so with spirit in mind.
sometimes i fail..sometimes i succeed.
i am human.
with a spirit! ziiiiing!
anyways..
i really do enjoy our conversations.
you are a pleasure my friend.
namaste.
(look that word up btw..its a great word)

hmmmm..
i disagree with your statement that only the monotheistic religion control by fear.
buddhism (yes..buddhism) shinto,mayan,toltec,arminianism,zoroastriasm..the list is legion and they ALL have punishment/reward doctrine.each at varying degrees but its in there.

i do enjoy hearing an atheists perspective on how my faith translates.
very..analytical of you my friend.
suffice to say my faith is born from personal revelation and has been an ongoing revelation since i was 14.
nothing i have encountered or experienced has taken away from this revelation,in fact it has strengthened it.
could i be delusional?
i guess its possible.
or maybe it is you who are delusional and i see things as they actually are.
not trying to be an ass,just pointing out the subjective nature of this particular polemic.

i guess..in its most simplest of terms.
my faith is that i have a spirit,a soul,a divine spark that is connected to the ALL,the ONE,also known as "the source".
freud believed that the ego WAS who you were.i could not disagree with that more.
the ego is who you THINK you are.predicated and perpetrated by those who are close to you.
we cant help that.it is very human.
so around 12 yrs old we start to have a sense of self.this self understands the world and how he/she interacts with it by rules set by his/her parents.
as we grow older so does the circle of influence i.e:friends,lovers,teachers etc etc.
think about this for a second because i am expressing a very huge idea in a very short amount of time and glossing over all the implications of said idea.

my philosophy..or my faith if you will,views the ego as my "false" self.
the ego wishes only to validate itself (thats why mass marketing is very VERY effective).
the ego wishes to perpetuate its own existence by way of constant feed-back.
the ego gets jealous and possesive.
the ego gets insecure and needy.
the ego has demands...and desires...which seek only for self aggrandizement.
now societal roles consisting of compassion and empathy will,and can,curb the destructive nature of the ego (think your teenage years and just how self centered you were to give you an idea of ego gone wild)

through my faith and discipline i am quite aware of my ego and have suppressed it to the point where it no longer manipulates my thinking nor my emotions.
so i have no urge nor a desire to be perceived as "correct" because to me that is irrelevant.
(though i do prefer to be "corrected" if i misstate something).
i do not experience jealousy,nor envy.
but i do experience pride.
i do not allow anothers limited perception of me based on their own subjective reasoning influence how i feel about who i am.
i am open and honest because my faith is that we are all connected with the divine and to lie,steal or cheat you is to be doing to myself also.
i do not judge anothers faith or lack of it because that is THEIR path and the only time i ever feel the need to intercede is when it flows into my domain and affects me in some way.

even as i write these words,which to me seem pretty articulate and clear,i know that you will understand them based solely on..well..your understanding.
i do not say that as a slight but rather a statement.
trying to convey complex thought patterns by way of text can be so..limiting.

everything i do or say i do so with spirit in mind.
sometimes i fail..sometimes i succeed.
i am human.
with a spirit! ziiiiing!
anyways..
i really do enjoy our conversations.
you are a pleasure my friend.
namaste.
(look that word up btw..its a great word)

>> ^dystopianfuturetoday:

Trump has found his veep. Charlie Sheen would make an excellent Secretary of State?


It could happen. Bush Jr. got elected.

Maybe the Mayans were right.

The best part is what you find when you look into Steven Jones, whom many cite as the preeminent scientist working with the 9-11 truthers. He's done some amazing work over there at BYU. Including a great piece on the reinterpretation of Mayan artifacts, and how they show evidence of Christ's visit to north America.

That there is a proper scientist.

>> ^probie:

I often wonder what the next big apocalyptic date will be. 2000 had the millennium bug, 2012 is the end of the Mayan calendar. I guess 2036 will be the next big one when Apophis swings by.


Elaine: "According to my source, the end of the world will be on February 14th, in the year two thousand and sixteen."
Peter Venkman: "Valentine's day. Bummer."

I often wonder what the next big apocalyptic date will be. 2000 had the millennium bug, 2012 is the end of the Mayan calendar. I guess 2036 will be the next big one when Apophis swings by.

>> ^dag:

Very interesting that it was the "flyover states" that were effected last. Don't worry the Sino-American cyberwar of 2015 will put people back to work.


>> ^garmachi:

>> ^NetRunner:
yeah, I was kinda surprised about how it essentially tracked with population density. Even at the beginning, the highest unemployment was where population was most highly concentrated.


The food and fuel riots of 2015 will follow this same pattern.


You guys are all optimistic. Didn't you listen to the Mayans? It all goes down in 2012.

People, people, it's so obviously a joint NSA-KGB plot to infiltrate Poland using Elvis, armed with hijacked alien artifacts. THINK ABOUT IT! There were *no* cameras around when the plane allegedly "crashed". Coincidence? They're covering up the fact that there was no plane crash, but an ancient mayan temple disguised as a plane crash to fool the sheepish population! Cloning the Polish president was easy enough, and detonating a combined EMP- and time compression bomb in orbit around the earth diverted attention from the military industrial complex trying to create another cold war buildup in the region. The new world order organisation controlling the media will see to it that the population buys into these lies, but luckily I was able to research the truth!

I have very mixed feelings about it.

First of all, I do not intend to criticize the OP(s) for being "members" of alcor.

It is a VERY cool idea and I would do it in a HEARTBEAT if I was a bit more confident in their science.

The way I understand it is that yes, there are organisms that can survive being frozen and then reanimated in either simple or complex ways. That said, I do not believe that human beings are built to make this probable.

The questions are ones of time, money, and science. Science right now CANNOT do this. The methods by which Alcor (and the other place) are "preserving" bodies has not been proven to encourage a non-existent procedure of reanimation.

This technology will not be available for a LONG time, if ever. I don't believe it is impossible, but I believe it is the sort of thing which would come FAR in advance of where our medical science is now. I believe that the science involved would have to not only have to unfreeze but reverse certain aspects of decomposition that happen WAY too fast for this to be possible. Unless you are being frozen almost instantly while still alive, which I do not believe is legal since it would be tantamount to euthanasia. So in my mind, we are talking about advanced techniques of cell manipulation and reconstruction which don't remotely exist. This brings me to

Will Alcor still exist in 300-1000 years? What provisions are being made for this?

I hate to say it, but I think the partial answer lies in Alcor's profits. I doubt they would ever release their financial statements, but you can probably tell a LOT by what their financial situation is.

If Alcor is actually legit, and not just to separate the future-minded person with expendable income from their money, they won't exist for long. The money involved in keeping these bodies in suspended animation for hundreds of years will not allow them to stay in business forever and eventually the plug will be pulled on these tubes and that will be that.

That's the best case scenario.

The worse case scenario is that this is a scam. They probably know damned well that they are banking on solutions that don't (and probably won't) exist in their own lifetimes. Therefore they charge money to people who like the idea, enjoy their Ferraris and dump the bodies in about 50 years when there are no living relatives so the inheritors of Alcor can continue the business. Another clue: their staff is volunteer based with little to no medical background... yeah.

I know I'm being a bit pessimistic, but it is very much akin to UFOs... there are lots of people that believe in UFOs and there are lots of people who make product for those who believe in UFOs. Some of them also believe in UFOs, but I suspect a vast majority see a market that is booming and money to be made. Whenever someone is trying to sell you something, you know that they know it is bullshit.

It is like all the 2012 hysteria. Why am I seeing commercials for SUVs and McDonald's tie-ins for a movie about the end of the world? Why do we have major corporations sponsoring shows on the Discovery channel "analyzing" the Mayan predictions about the last few years we have left? Money... it's always about selling me something.

But seriously, I really don't mean to be a debbie downer about this, but it is just a flash in the pan. I just really hope that you aren't spending money that could be better spent elsewhere.

Finally, I REALLY question the idea of preserving just the head. All I can think of is this scene:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oL7XP0ROvk

Skip to 2:12

wont matter in 3 more years.

your pondering is an exercise in pointlessness, infidel.

the poles are going to reverse in 2012, at which point, a vengeful mayan god will wake up from a long nap. All those not baptized with the power of the Melchisedech Preisthood, stripped from the earth after the crucifixion and failure of the surviving apostles, then restored to the earth by jesus and the angel moroni through the prophet Joseph Smith, shall perish.

All Mormons currently in orbit on this earthly plane will follow the zombie prophet, bringham young, to Missouri. Where the mayan god, known to those in the latter days as Jesus Christ, shall reign as king for 1000 years. Worker Ants of Zion will be busy. happily enslaved by their heavenly king, digging up the names of every soul that has ever been sent and moved on from physical existence, for the past 6000 years. tirelessly baptizing every dead mortal being in global history. preparing for the final battle between good and evil. assembling their tabernacle armies. so that Yahweh almighty can finally cast his judgement on humanity and every soul he thought to create can take their place in one of three levels of his merciful heaven.

then my parents will eventually get their own planet. and ill be a motherfucking princess.
bitches.

My interpretation of the movie is that tom's contemporary wife was writing her book based on memories of a past life. Current day Tom discovered the tree of life and used it to "cure" death, becoming immortal himself, but too late to save his wife. He planted a seed from the tree on her grave, and hundreds of years later I guess he's become rich enough to pay for an Alcubierre bubble ship to take himself and the tree, which now houses her soul, out to the supernova for a reunion. The conquistador's unique death, after ingesting the tree of life's nectar, created some kind of open tunnel for his soul to move between lifetimes. That's the only explanation for the most confusing part of the movie for me: when space-Tom appears to the mayan guard. I know it's not supposed to be literal but part of me wonders if immortal Tom has not truly re-incarnated 1,000 years back in time, and now has a chance to cherish every moment with the next incarnation of his true love.

I wonder how many years in earth time passed during his journey? Could be millions. Who's to say what's happening to the passage of time inside tha bubble?

Tags for this video have been changed from 'doomsday, december 21, Mayan, 2012' to 'banned, redacted, selflink' - edited by Ornthoron

>> ^Memorare:
It's wads like these 2 who are twisting the original message.


I'm sorry, but even the original message was one of ignorance. We can forgive them, however, as it was a time of ignorance and fear. Today, we have FACTS, KNOWLEDGE, and INTELLIGENCE to help us avoid becoming mindless, idiot automatons.

Things we didn't understand way back then were best described using theories and storytelling; just as the ancient Greeks, Mayans, and countless other civilizations did throughout history. It was all they had of explaining the way the world around them worked, as they hadn't yet developed the knowledge and tools to come to FACTUAL, OBSERVABLE conclusions. If you believe these two morons, then you may as well believe the Earth is flat, Zeus has orgies in the clouds, and that you can see Russia from Alaska.

Or, you can join the rest of humanity and accept something much more plausible and intelligent. People like this will one day be extinct. Humanity is growing smarter, and outgrowing mythical bedtime stories told to keep children in line through fear, and from questioning ignorance. More proof of evolution.

I predict that by 2012 95% of all internet traffic will be some form of media about cats, in normal and LOL form.

This phenomena will be what brings down the internet, ultimately bringing humanity to its knees and ushering in the end of the world that the Mayans predicted millenia ago.