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I'm not at all a scholar of the bible. I've read parts, I've been to
Sunday school before i was confirmed (age 14) and I have at times had
fun reading it.

Well, I would encourage you to try to understand it. Every conversation I've ever had with an atheist about the bible either brings up the same five things from the old testament or their doubts about who wrote the bible..and that's it. I've never actually spoken to an atheist, and I've spoken to many atheists, who even understood the basics. I think that if you're going to criticize something, you should at least try to understand it at a basic level..maybe that's just me. Although, the lack of understanding matches what the bible says, that the truth is spiritually discerned. Without the Holy Spirit, the atheist is going to find it fairly impossible to comprehend.

Arguing from authority is not a strong argument. Just because "the
intellectual scholarship" is much greater than I understand, doesn't
change what the book says. And since new evidence is not uncovered, it
is what it is, you are forced to "interpret new evidence" and that's
not the way the world works.

What you, and many others try to imply, is that what is the bible is simplistic, and for people without any intellectual standards. The truth is that what is in the bible is complex, and it takes a real intellect (supplanted with godly wisdom) to be able to understand it. The intellectual scholarship is vast because the bible is inexaustible. It functions as a cogent whole, and address all the deep questions that human beings have. It is not simple by any stretch of the imagination.

1) Personal evidence cannot be verified. What things were revealed to
you before you ever read or understood them? How were they revealed,
what was revealed, how did you later understand them / where did you
read them?

I would like to understand your thought process, which is why I ask.

Is it possible that you already had a forgone conclusion when you read
X, and therefore you interpreted X the way you wanted?

God had revealed to me through signs that He is a triune God, and that He has a Messiah, someone whose job it is to save the world. So when I finally read the bible, those signs are what initially confirmed it to be true. I didn't have any foregone conclusions about the bible before I read it. I had no actual idea what Christianity was all about.

What happened? How has your life improved, what did you do before,
what do you do now? How can you tell that it happened supernaturally?
Is there any difference from that to just having a profound change of
heart. If you are talking about addiction, it is possible to fill the
void of that addiction with other things - some people exchange
cigarettes with food, why not religion/faith? Does your faith take up
as much of your time as "the unhealthy things" you did before?

Before I became a Christian I was a theist, and before I was a theist I was an agnostic. When I became a theist my bad behavior didn't change. I was like Enoch, in that I believed that none of the religions were true, or that all of them just had pieces of who God is. I believed in a God that loved you the way you are and didn't particularly enforce any kind of behavior upon you, as long as your heart was in the right place. I would think that God, knowing me intimately, and knowing my good intentions, was very understanding if I did something which was out of line. Of course God is very patient with all of us, but the point is that I had plenty of faith in God at the time, and spent my time thinking about Him and pursuing the truth. The difference is that once I accepted Jesus into my heart as my Lord and Savior, everything changed.

It was only when I became a Christian that my behavior changed, and much of that practically overnight. When you're born again, you are spiritually cleansed and start out with a blank slate. You become like new. I had addictions, depression, anger, pain, sadness, and other issues that left me in short order. Some of those things I never thought I would give up, some of them I never wanted to give up, but I immediately lost the desire for them. It was a change of heart; God gave me a new one. It was supernatural because as I said, I didn't do any work. People spend their entire lives in therapy or counseling and spend tens of thousands of dollars or more to get rid of just some of these problems, and often don't see any results. I lost almost all of my baggage in just a few short months.

3) Not really. It only accounts for a visual interpretation of how men act. The writers of it has observed how people act and guessed at reasons why that is. Some are close to reality, some are way off. Which human behaviors does it predict? How and where does it describe in finite detail how those behaviors are created? I'm looking for actual citations here, because this is complete news to me.

It predicts all kinds of human behaviors by describing the mechanisms which motivate them to act. It shows the fundemental dichotomy of the heart of man. As an example:

James 3:3-10

When we put bits into the mouths of horses to make them obey us, we can turn the whole animal. Or take ships as an example. Although they are so large and are driven by strong winds, they are steered by a very small rudder wherever the pilot wants to go. Likewise the tongue is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts. Consider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark. The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.

All kinds of animals, birds, reptiles and creatures of the sea are being tamed and have been tamed by man, but no man can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison.

With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God’s likeness. Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be. Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring? My brothers, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.

and

Matthew 12:34

O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

and

Matthew 15:19-20

But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

4) I disagree. It describes a point of view. The morality of the God of the bible is hardly any good morality. We have an ingrown moral compass, I can agree on that, it's been naturally selected against because it helped our ancestors to survive and procreate. "His moral law" is atrocious, if the bible is any indicator.

If everyone followed the morality that Jesus taught us, this planet would be as close to a utopia it could possibly get. He taught us to love one another, to forgive as a rule, to do good to even those who hate you, to help everyone in need, and to follow the moral law. Your idea of Gods morality being atrocious is plainly false. The passages that you feel are atrocious have an explanation, its just whether you want to hear them or not. As far as natural selection goes, all it cares about is passing on its genes. That is the only criteria for success. This doesn't explain noble behavior in the least, such as sacrificing your life for someone else. That's a bad way to pass on your genes.

5) Which prophecies have been fulfilled? You don't think Israel chose their currency based on the bible instead? Which captivities have been prophecied down to the year and where in the bible?

http://www.khouse.org/articles/2004/552/


6) This is hardly uncontested. There are parts of the bible that seem to be true, but because some of it is true, does not mean that all of it is. http://www.theskepticalreview.com/tsrmag/982front.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_history#Historical_accuracy_of_biblical_stories

It's positive evidence in the bibles favor when it is verified by archaelogical evidence. There are many things in the bible that historians denied were true in the bible, like the hittite civilization, until archaelogy proved the bible correct.

7) Citation needed. Saying that the universe has a beginning is hardly proof of anything. That's the easy way to say it, anyone apart from earlier theories said that, so of course they did it in there too. In actuality the bible claims that God is eternal, which there is no basis for.

These claims are just claims, there is no basis for saying them in the bible. Blood clotting could be found by trial and error back then, ocean currents can to a great extent be measured by fishermen even back then. Scientists who believed in an eternal universe have since changed their mind, when evidence discredited the theory. It's all about being able to back up your claims. the bible just claims.

This guy discovered and mapped the ocean currents, and he did so being inspired by psalm 8, which is the one that mentions the "paths of the seas"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Fontaine_Maury

Abraham didn't learn from trial and error. They were doing circumcisions on the 8th day from the beginning.

You must think something is eternal, unless you believe something came from nothing. So your problem isn't really with eternal things, just an eternal person.

Here is a list of them

http://www.inplainsite.org/html/scientific_facts_in_the_bible.html

8 ) How did you experience the holy spirit?

It's really impossible quite impossible to describe since it effects every level of your being at the same time, but experientially you could say it's like going from 110 to 220v. It's like you lived all your life being covered in filth and suddenly you're washed off and sparkling clean. It's like being remade into something brand new.

>> ^gwiz665

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

Upvote, not because I agree with you that it's a sin - but for the nuanced substance of your reply. You must represent the left wing of your fundamentalist church. I don't think your equivalence of sin stance is a very common outlook though. >> ^shinyblurry:

Well, first of all I will say that my heart goes out to this kid. I obviously don't approve of anyone being bullied for any reason. I remember what school was like, and how cruel kids can be. The fact that he was cutting in second grade is pretty messed up, and I think it shows how messed up this culture is, that a second grader would even find out about something like that so young. I feel bad for him, but I don't really see the justification for laying this on the shoulders of Christians. In my experience I have heard bigotry against homosexuality come from the lips of the secular man far more often than the Christians.
My perspective on homosexuality is this: it's a sin. Does that mean that a homosexual is to be held in contempt? Of course not. All people are made in the image of God.
James 3:9-13
With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God's likeness. Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be. Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring? My brothers, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.
The command of the Lord is to approach it with gentleness and love. Christians don't always do that, and to my shame I haven't always done that, but that is the way it is supposed to be handled.
We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, so for one sinner to point out another one is hypocripsy. We all have our special challenges, and my sin isn't any better than his sin.

Well, first of all I will say that my heart goes out to this kid. I obviously don't approve of anyone being bullied for any reason. I remember what school was like, and how cruel kids can be. The fact that he was cutting in second grade is pretty messed up, and I think it shows how messed up this culture is, that a second grader would even find out about something like that so young. I feel bad for him, but I don't really see the justification for laying this on the shoulders of Christians. In my experience I have heard bigotry against homosexuality come from the lips of the secular man far more often than the Christians.

My perspective on homosexuality is this: it's a sin. Does that mean that a homosexual is to be held in contempt? Of course not. All people are made in the image of God.

James 3:9-13

With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God's likeness. Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be. Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring? My brothers, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.

The command of the Lord is to approach it with gentleness and love. Christians don't always do that, and to my shame I haven't always done that, but that is the way it is supposed to be handled.

We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, so for one sinner to point out another one is hypocripsy. We all have our special challenges, and my sin isn't any better than his sin.

*dead video not available from here http://revver.com/video/333810/escape-the-grapevine/

>> ^Sagemind:

Movie games are just bastardizations anyway - They shouldn't be taken as "Part of The overall Story" - Ever.
Most Movie Games are never good enough to be games and rest on the merits of the movie itself - so why would anyone be shocked that this one would be any different!
Most of the games you see out there from Disney - for example - are the same game with different graphics to reflect the new movie they're promoting and parents let their kids buy this crap.
I tell my kids - if it's a spin off a movie - don't buy it. Buy it only if it was a video game first!


There are exceptions... For example, the grapevine says that the Chronicles of Riddick game was actually pretty good. What this means is that the awesomeness of a movie and it's associated game and vice versa can never be above a certain limit (the Uwe Boll quotient). This explains why games based on good movies suck so hard, and also explains why the Mario Bros. movie was just abysmal and why the Resident Evil movies were rather disappointing.

The one with the rabbits. I used that song to get my girlfriend into DCFC, and it has a really special meaning for me about my relationship with her. I'm a hopeless romantic, lol. I haven't seen all of the videos on Directions yet, because I don't have the DVD (I plan to get it eventually), so I haven't seen the Different Names for the Same Thing video yet. Every song off of Plans and Transatlanticism is pure gold to me though. I would probably put one of those two as one of my favorite ten albums of all time. Amazing, amazing music. Gibbard has the voice of an angel, lol.

In reply to this comment by thepinky:
Yeah. I love Directions. My brother owns the DVD and it has some great special features. Which music video for I Will Follow You Into the Dark are you talking about? The one with Ben Gibbard and the gaping hole in the floor, or the one off of Directions with the animated bunnies? Both of them are cool. None of the Directions videos have any of the band members in them.

I love all of the Directions videos, but I especially love "Different Names for the Same Thing." Have you seen that one? The director went to a middle school band and asked them to perform the song. A little girl sang the vocals and they recorded the kids doing it, then they dubbed Death Cab's performance over it. It's perfectly in sync and just a great video. I got very nostalgic when I watched it.

In reply to this comment by JAPR:
Directions, right? I've seen some of the videos off of it, but haven't gotten around to picking it up. Fantastic stuff. I absolutely LOVE the video for I Will Follow You into the Dark.

In reply to this comment by thepinky:
Have you guys seen all of the videos that Death Cab contracted people to make for their album "Plans?" GREAT stuff. I love those music videos. I hadn't seen this one and I really like it. Thanks.

Yeah. I love Directions. My brother owns the DVD and it has some great special features. Which music video for I Will Follow You Into the Dark are you talking about? The one with Ben Gibbard and the gaping hole in the floor, or the one off of Directions with the animated bunnies? Both of them are cool. None of the Directions videos have any of the band members in them.

I love all of the Directions videos, but I especially love "Different Names for the Same Thing." Have you seen that one? The director went to a middle school band and asked them to perform the song. A little girl sang the vocals and they recorded the kids doing it, then they dubbed Death Cab's performance over it. It's perfectly in sync and just a great video. I got very nostalgic when I watched it.

In reply to this comment by JAPR:
Directions, right? I've seen some of the videos off of it, but haven't gotten around to picking it up. Fantastic stuff. I absolutely LOVE the video for I Will Follow You into the Dark.

In reply to this comment by thepinky:
Have you guys seen all of the videos that Death Cab contracted people to make for their album "Plans?" GREAT stuff. I love those music videos. I hadn't seen this one and I really like it. Thanks.

No problem, great sift.

In reply to this comment by blahpook:
Thank you!!!

In reply to this comment by JAPR:
*promote

Thank you! It sifted.

In reply to this comment by paul4dirt:
would love to be able to promote, great!

*shortfilm

Thanks for pushing this to the front!

In reply to this comment by jacobrecker:
lovely music and vid. annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd sifted

Thank you!!!

In reply to this comment by JAPR:
*promote

Directions, right? I've seen some of the videos off of it, but haven't gotten around to picking it up. Fantastic stuff. I absolutely LOVE the video for I Will Follow You into the Dark.

In reply to this comment by thepinky:
Have you guys seen all of the videos that Death Cab contracted people to make for their album "Plans?" GREAT stuff. I love those music videos. I hadn't seen this one and I really like it. Thanks.