Peter Schiff was also 100% correct about the 2008 crash, but that still doesn't exonerate him as being a complete tool. i do not care for these examples of suitability for office due to correlation, correlation is not causation, and these attempts at power of authority figures to garner support for his cause is just appalling - just because a veteran says it does not make it a fact (& they are trained to follow order, not be free-thinkers) to me the true patriots shun military service 'Think of Muhammad Ali' when he so famously stated (No Vietnamese person ever called me nigger).

Paul may be right about wanting to bring the troops home, but he is very wrong about more broader issues & before of the cultists ask me for what those are read my older posts on my profile, i don't feel like repeating myself to people who close their ears & their minds.

The only common factor in all that ignoring and downvoting is you and your snide, passive-aggressive and sarcastic comments in this thread. We're ignoring you. You haven't made any contributions to the discussion, just attacked individuals, or kinda implied a disapproval in some backhanded way. The only things you have said that were on topic show you are two steps behind, like in researching the context of Harris's remarks on nuclear attacks, for example. The best way to kill a stupid argument like that is to ignore it, and the best way to still show disapproval is to downvote.

Just because you say something in a thread doesn't mean people are obliged to engage with it. So take this opportunity to look back at your comments from the beginning and try and imagine why anyone would want to answer them. For starters, people don't like answering sarcasm, indirect criticism and personal insults. So if you want your comments to get some attention, start with that.>> ^marbles:

Herd mentality in action!
@dystopianfuturetoday @Skeeve @Zyrxil @Januari @Issykitty @hpqp @rottenseed @enoch @Boise_Lib
Good job guys. You made my point. 13 down votes and 0 rebuttals. No mind control here. Just free thinkers.

>> ^marbles:

Herd mentality in action!
@dystopianfuturetoday @Skeeve @Zyrxil @Januari @Issykitty @hpqp @rottenseed @enoch @Boise_Lib
Good job guys. You made my point. 13 down votes and 0 rebuttals. No mind control here. Just free thinkers.


Marbles, it's been quite a while since many critical thinking sifters and siftettes have ceased to take you seriously (re: conspiracy theories). The downvote is, at least in my case, a quick way of saying "your argument is bunk but I don't wish to waste my time on you". But if you feel better turning downvotes into a sign of your rightness, feel free, although you should probably pay royalties to your fellow TRUTH-teller shinybee, he's been using that pathetic line for a while now.

>> ^marbles:

>> ^Gallowflak:

What are you talking about?

I'm talking about how the new Atheist movement is full of young mature independent astute free-thinkers. They take criticism in stride and are open to opposing views and opinions. The responses to my comments here certainly reaffirms my position.


I think that most people absorb into groups that resonate with them because of highly tenuous bullshit, rather than a genuine ideological or intellectual kinship, and pay lip service to the ideas of the clan which is most convenient or comfortable for them to "be" in. So I think that a movement based around critical thinking and secular humanism has a hard time from the get-go, because most people aren't critical, or reasonable, or rational, even if they fancy to pretend otherwise.

Honestly, I never really expected many of those in the new atheist movement to be up to scratch, even before going into it. And there's a serious problem with some rather douchey and stiff figureheads.

These are all things we can talk about, though! There are people here genuinely interested in having a conversation, even if they forget that, sometimes. But you don't seem to want a conversation.

Maybe you feel embattled, and you'd probably have good reason. But making quips and then taking people's legitimately pissed reactions as a kind of vindication of your point, a point you haven't actually made, isn't a good way to get anything done.

It just seems like, rather than having an argument, you have an attack, and there's no real response to that other than rejection. And that's what you got. It isn't groupthink or hivemind activity, it's just that, here, you're not part of the dialogue, you're just offensive white noise.

If you have something to say and a case to make, there's at least one person who will actually fucking read it. But I've not seen it yet.

>> ^Gallowflak:


What are you talking about?


I'm talking about how the new Atheist movement is full of young mature independent astute free-thinkers. They take criticism in stride and are open to opposing views and opinions. The responses to my comments here certainly reaffirms my position.

In reply to this comment by marbles:
Herd mentality in action!

@<a rel="nofollow" href="http://videosift.com/member/dystopianfuturetoday" title="member since January 9th, 2007" class="profilelink"><strong style="color:#000000">dystopianfuturetoday @<a rel="nofollow" href="http://videosift.com/member/Skeeve" title="member since May 3rd, 2007" class="profilelink"><strong style="color:#6a8e23">Skeeve @<a rel="nofollow" href="http://videosift.com/member/Zyrxil" title="member since June 29th, 2007" class="profilelink">Zyrxil @<a rel="nofollow" href="http://videosift.com/member/Januari" title="member since June 30th, 2007" class="profilelink">Januari @<a rel="nofollow" href="http://issykitty.videosift.com" title="member since August 29th, 2007" class="profilelink"><strong style="color:#9966ff">Issykitty @<a rel="nofollow" href="http://videosift.com/member/hpqp" title="member since July 25th, 2009" class="profilelink">hpqp @<a rel="nofollow" href="http://douchebag.videosift.com" title="member since July 26th, 2007" class="profilelink"><strong style="color:#008800">rottenseed @<a rel="nofollow" href="http://videosift.com/member/enoch" title="member since April 22nd, 2009" class="profilelink">enoch @<a rel="nofollow" href="http://videosift.com/member/Boise_Lib" title="member since July 11th, 2009" class="profilelink">Boise_Lib

Good job guys. You made my point. 13 down votes and 0 rebuttals. No mind control here. Just free thinkers.


seriously?
and this made sense when you were typing?
did it ever occur to you...even for a second..that you were being an asshole?

>> ^marbles:

Herd mentality in action!
@dystopianfuturetoday @Skeeve @Zyrxil @Januari @Issykitty @hpqp @rottenseed @enoch @Boise_Lib
Good job guys. You made my point. 13 down votes and 0 rebuttals. No mind control here. Just free thinkers.


An odd number? Oh, thanks I missed one.

Herd mentality in action!

@dystopianfuturetoday @Skeeve @Zyrxil @Januari @Issykitty @hpqp @rottenseed @enoch @Boise_Lib

Good job guys. You made my point. 13 down votes and 0 rebuttals. No mind control here. Just free thinkers.

Let's be clear, atheists have NO agenda. Atheists would prefer to be quiet on the subject. However, every day we see religion influencing politics, education and, as a result, restricting freedom of thought/action, so people who value their freedom will, obviously, speak out. Here is a good deal; keep your faith to yourself. Keep out of politics and stop brainwashing kids. In short, humanists/atheists/free thinkers do not care which bronze age myth you follow. Be a slave in private, keep your dark age practices private, and allow the rest of us to be free of your dogma. Do this, and we will have no need to comment on your "faith."

I think this guy is great for promoting free, individual, logical thought. But he may have made an error when he said; "If there's any truth to empathy, you're going to have to substantiate it." I thought empathy was simply recognizing, and sharing, someone elses experience (happiness, sadness, pain). I hope he keeps up the good work, we need many more like him, especially when we may soon (hopefully not) lose the greatest free thinker of our age, Christopher Hitchens.

>> ^GeeSussFreeK:

If God indeed is God then would it not be justified? (I should qualify this with I am an agnostic atheist) But there is very little that separates a Abrahamic faith than a scientific one, or even logical one. Rational systems have undeniably "Chinese walls", as does science. Bedrocks on which are facts that have to be accepted that can't be proved. All people, every single one, lives their day hinged on "facts" they have no idea are "True" with a capital T. Everyone is living with some form of dogma. It is a new found arrogance, and perhaps in rebellion of the arrogance that "religion" has had for some time, that people who don't "have faith" are somehow being smarter or less dictated too. Many of the worlds brilliant mathematicians and my personal favorites were rejected by the world of "free thinkers" to the point where they killed themsevles. All their opposition died, in time, and their ideas only came into popularity after they were dead and in the ground. People are brutally unfair, not fully considering things most of the time...even those tasked with the responsibility to do great thinking. Seldom to people embrace the ignorance we all share, and instead bask in the differences.
One of my favorite quotes on the matter is this:
So strong is this propensity of mankind to fall into mutual animosities, that where no substantial occasion presents itself, the most frivolous and fanciful distinctions have been sufficient to kindle their unfriendly passions and excite their most violent conflicts.
-James Madison
We are all not so different, in the end...how could we be?
>> ^A10anis:
>> ^GeeSussFreeK:
>> ^A10anis:
I am an Anti-theist, in that the very thought of an eternity of cowing, grovelling, and being a slave to some celestial being is not one I would choose. It would be, as Hitchens says, like an eternity in North Korea. Be a slave to your god if you wish, but leave the rest of us, most importantly our children, to think for ourselves.

A lot of self indulgence and confirmation bias there, as much as some faiths religions (for clarity ) I would suppose.

No bias, just fact. Name one Abrahamic faith that does NOT dictate to it's followers. I choose freedom of thought, over controlled thought, every time. Religion, if is not stopped, will happily take us back to the dark ages. A time when they had absolute power over every aspect of peoples lives. Who, in their right mind, would prefer that to freedom?


What are you talking about? How can you rationally claim that "very little separates Abrahamic faith from science?" or that science has "facts that can't be proved?" BTW, you cannot be an Agnostic Atheist, you are either not sure there is a god, or you believe there is no god. Or are you saying you are not sure if you are an atheist..lol. I leave it to others to see the nonsense of your non-sequiturs.

If God indeed is God then would it not be justified? (I should qualify this with I am an agnostic atheist) But there is very little that separates a Abrahamic faith than a scientific one, or even logical one. Rational systems have undeniably "Chinese walls", as does science. Bedrocks on which are facts that have to be accepted that can't be proved. All people, every single one, lives their day hinged on "facts" they have no idea are "True" with a capital T. Everyone is living with some form of dogma. It is a new found arrogance, and perhaps in rebellion of the arrogance that "religion" has had for some time, that people who don't "have faith" are somehow being smarter or less dictated too. Many of the worlds brilliant mathematicians and my personal favorites were rejected by the world of "free thinkers" to the point where they killed themsevles. All their opposition died, in time, and their ideas only came into popularity after they were dead and in the ground. People are brutally unfair, not fully considering things most of the time...even those tasked with the responsibility to do great thinking. Seldom to people embrace the ignorance we all share, and instead bask in the differences.

One of my favorite quotes on the matter is this:

So strong is this propensity of mankind to fall into mutual animosities, that where no substantial occasion presents itself, the most frivolous and fanciful distinctions have been sufficient to kindle their unfriendly passions and excite their most violent conflicts.

-James Madison

We are all not so different, in the end...how could we be?

>> ^A10anis:

>> ^GeeSussFreeK:
>> ^A10anis:
I am an Anti-theist, in that the very thought of an eternity of cowing, grovelling, and being a slave to some celestial being is not one I would choose. It would be, as Hitchens says, like an eternity in North Korea. Be a slave to your god if you wish, but leave the rest of us, most importantly our children, to think for ourselves.

A lot of self indulgence and confirmation bias there, as much as some faiths religions (for clarity ) I would suppose.

No bias, just fact. Name one Abrahamic faith that does NOT dictate to it's followers. I choose freedom of thought, over controlled thought, every time. Religion, if is not stopped, will happily take us back to the dark ages. A time when they had absolute power over every aspect of peoples lives. Who, in their right mind, would prefer that to freedom?

@Sagemind

Being a slave to another person is a wretched life.
Being a slave to a concept is unfathomable.
Religion is a concept of man.
Religion is a concept designed to subjugate and control a population.

Religion is a man made system that has been used for good and evil. We know God through faith alone.

There was a time when education was unheard of and only a relative few were exposed to it. Rulers kept everyone else dumb so they could be controlled. Religion was and always will be designed as a tool to control. In the beginning there were many sects and religions. As the religions caught hold, they slowly choked out as many other religions as they could to exercise their brand of control. Christianity happened to be one of the few that was more ruthless at destroying the others. (Many are documented in the bible - Genocide in the name of religion included.) The smaller religions only needed to be discredited and be called cults - as they continue to do today.

The early church was heavily persecuted by many different dictators. Believers were frequently martyred because they reufsed to worship other Gods. The expansion of the early church under these circumstances is one of the positive evidences for Gods existence as it is unlikely it could have happened in that climate of persecution. There was nothing to gain from being a Christian in those days except being an outcast.

Genocide is committed in the name of many things, and today the masses are no less controlled by secular Governments than they have been under religious ones. Bad behavior is not an exclusive to religion, it is the nature of man himself, who could corrupt anything beneficial. That people have acted badly in the name of Christianity isn't proof of anything except mans inherent corruption.

Now, many, many lifetimes later, man has become educated and has thrown the shackles of religion (a form of slavery) and science has emerged as we seek for fact instead of fiction. There are many who are still bound to religion and can't function without the masters hand to lead them. They have lost, it seems, the ability to reason, with cognitive thinking, on their own.

Many need the presence of a deity to explain the un-explainable. It's a neat fully-packaged explanation that never needs unwrapping. It is easy. It's man's nature to pick the easy route. To many it just makes more sense. To others, those more cerebral, they want to see what is underneath. They refuse to accept what is fed to them and dig a little deeper. What they find is a world of control and dominance but also a world of wonder where education can lead one on many journeys.

The question of whether the Universe is random or deliberately created is not only credible, but utterly necessary and fundemental to understanding who man is and how he relates to the Universe. Perhaps you should try Contrary to popular belief, intelligent design is a scientific theory which seeks to explain the Universe just as evolution does. The question of God is central to philosophy and our most noted philosophers have debated this question of Gods existence throughout recorded history. The complexity of life is inadequately explained by materialistic processes, and many of these theories, such as evolution, are metaphysical to begin with.

There is a percentage of the population that operates on the right side of the brain where zeros and one are absolutes and in-fact they are. They work on a puzzle where the pieces are scattered everywhere in a dark room. The pieces don't always fit perfectly so someone else pulls them apart and the big picture is corrected. Every once in a while a strobe light goes on and larger mistake is noticed and we go back to restructuring out truths.

Religion want's to turn out the lights forever, kick everyone out of the room and continue to control those free thinkers. Individuals with original thoughts scares religion. The control will crumble and individuality will rein. Their fear is that without the control, chaos will ensue. What they don't see is that to stifle education is to bring about that which they fear most.

The most basic and fundemental questions of life have not been advanced one iota. There is a higher truth operating here: Man advances theories of life which convenience his own personal hypocripsy and enable him to do evil without consequence. This is a basic truth:

John 3:20

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

1 Corinthians 2:14

“The natural (unredeemed) man receiveth not the things of the (holy) Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned”.

1 Corinthians 3:19

For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

I still am not sure which they fear most. Is it the chaos itself, because look around, it exists with or without religion and often because of religion. Or is it the fear of loosing out on the promise of a Utopian forever. A mythical heaven where every single person has a different definition of. A place of fantasy.

Religion works on some of you. You remain a cow in this life so that you can experience a better life later. Well, heads up people, This is the life and you've been duped. Religion has brain washed you to do it's bidding. You fight the good fight for what you've been told is true by a hierarchy of rulers who seek the top roles in dominance. This isn't just true in Christianity, it goes for all religions. You are the pawns, the people on the front lines, leading the way, taking the brunt of accusation while the leaders at the top live the good live. You send your money (tithes) to them while you scrape to live a decent life.

I neither came to Christianity out of fear, or because I desired another life over this one. Nor was I indoctrinated or persuaded. Rather I was instructed in the spirit, and received personal revelation of the truth. I came to it independently and my convinctions rest solely on that. Your belief about an interdepedence due to a weakness of mind or character is wholly invalid.

I for one will not erase myself to the "Greater Good" of a hierarchy that cares more about it's well being/proliferation than it cares for the individual thought of a free thinking individual. It is my nature to put my thoughts and opinions before those of a mindless juggernaut that is religion. I will not allow my free thought to be controlled, twisted or stifled by anyone or anything.

Anyone with self respect should feel the same. Giving up on reality and calling it faith is really just saying, "Wow, that's just to much to take in and comprehend, I'm just going to shut down now. I will never have to concern myself with trying to keep all the balls in the air anymore. I will let a God sit in the driver's seat and ride out the rest of my life as a passenger." On top of that you spend all your days yelling out the window that you've got it so easy, you don't have to drive, you'll get to enjoy things when you get to your destination. What you fail to see is the person in the driver's seat doesn't have a license to drive, or a body or anything, they are plain fiction and the end of the road is a brick wall. When will you look up and see that you should have taken the wheel and honored the privilege of the ride before it was too late.

This imagined heirarchy of yours is a convenient strawman for your arguments about personal freedom, but it doesn't bear out. There is no conspiracy here. The body of Christ is so fractured at this time that a belief there is a heirarchy of control is simply ludicrous. Belief in God is about personal conviction and personal responsibility. Convinction because we are all sinners who have transgressed Gods laws. Responsibility because God is the moral authority who judicates our lives. You seem to think you're free, but anyone who sins is a slave to sin. You seem to think you're without a god, but you have something you worship. Whether its something in the world, or in the case of many secular humanists, yourself, there is something out there that you bow down and kiss every day of your life. Your freedom is just another box that you feel comfortable in. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

1 Corinthians 13:11-13

When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Being a slave to another person is a wretched life.
Being a slave to a concept is unfathomable.
Religion is a concept of man.
Religion is a concept designed to subjugate and control a population.

There was a time when education was unheard of and only a relative few were exposed to it. Rulers kept everyone else dumb so they could be controlled. Religion was and always will be designed as a tool to control. In the beginning there were many sects and religions. As the religions caught hold, they slowly choked out as many other religions as they could to exercise their brand of control. Christianity happened to be one of the few that was more ruthless at destroying the others. (Many are documented in the bible - Genocide in the name of religion included.) The smaller religions only needed to be discredited and be called cults - as they continue to do today.

Now, many, many lifetimes later, man has become educated and has thrown the shackles of religion (a form of slavery) and science has emerged as we seek for fact instead of fiction. There are many who are still bound to religion and can't function without the masters hand to lead them. They have lost, it seems, the ability to reason, with cognitive thinking, on their own.

Many need the presence of a deity to explain the un-explainable. It's a neat fully-packaged explanation that never needs unwrapping. It is easy. It's man's nature to pick the easy route. To many it just makes more sense. To others, those more cerebral, they want to see what is underneath. They refuse to accept what is fed to them and dig a little deeper. What they find is a world of control and dominance but also a world of wonder where education can lead one on many journeys.

There is a percentage of the population that operates on the right side of the brain where zeros and one are absolutes and in-fact they are. They work on a puzzle where the pieces are scattered everywhere in a dark room. The pieces don't always fit perfectly so someone else pulls them apart and the big picture is corrected. Every once in a while a strobe light goes on and larger mistake is noticed and we go back to restructuring out truths.

Religion want's to turn out the lights forever, kick everyone out of the room and continue to control those free thinkers. Individuals with original thoughts scares religion. The control will crumble and individuality will rein. Their fear is that without the control, chaos will ensue. What they don't see is that to stifle education is to bring about that which they fear most.

I still am not sure which they fear most. Is it the chaos itself, because look around, it exists with or without religion and often because of religion. Or is it the fear of loosing out on the promise of a Utopian forever. A mythical heaven where every single person has a different definition of. A place of fantasy.

Religion works on some of you. You remain a cow in this life so that you can experience a better life later. Well, heads up people, This is the life and you've been duped. Religion has brain washed you to do it's bidding. You fight the good fight for what you've been told is true by a hierarchy of rulers who seek the top roles in dominance. This isn't just true in Christianity, it goes for all religions. You are the pawns, the people on the front lines, leading the way, taking the brunt of accusation while the leaders at the top live the good live. You send your money (tithes) to them while you scrape to live a decent life.

I for one will not erase myself to the "Greater Good" of a hierarchy that cares more about it's well being/proliferation than it cares for the individual thought of a free thinking individual. It is my nature to put my thoughts and opinions before those of a mindless juggernaut that is religion. I will not allow my free thought to be controlled, twisted or stifled by anyone or anything.

Anyone with self respect should feel the same. Giving up on reality and calling it faith is really just saying, "Wow, that's just to much to take in and comprehend, I'm just going to shut down now. I will never have to concern myself with trying to keep all the balls in the air anymore. I will let a God sit in the driver's seat and ride out the rest of my life as a passenger." On top of that you spend all your days yelling out the window that you've got it so easy, you don't have to drive, you'll get to enjoy things when you get to your destination. What you fail to see is the person in the driver's seat doesn't have a license to drive, or a body or anything, they are plain fiction and the end of the road is a brick wall. When will you look up and see that you should have taken the wheel and honored the privilege of the ride before it was too late.

for all you misfits,free thinkers and rule breakers.
welcome home.
*promote