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Transforming Formula One: 2014 Rules Explained by Red Bull

oritteropo says...

If there is a button the the steering wheel that gives an extra 100hp for overtaking by whatever method, I'm willing to call it push to pass. I expect that hitting the button would switch the engine to a high power torque mapping, use the MGU-H to spool up the turbo faster, and give a MGU-K boost exactly like last year's KERS button. I would also expect that not every team uses a steering wheel button for this function, but if Williams called it "push to pass" over the radio, I expect that they do. You could also have a separate engine mapping to do the same thing, and I expect that probably some teams do.

The RBR infringement was a bit more complicated than that. The FIA sensor was giving them inaccurate readings (it was reading high), and the FIA told them to apply an offset to the sensor values. They chose to use another method to ensure they weren't exceeding the 100kg/hr limit, and were excluded on the grounds that they had not sought permission from the FIA to do so and that it is not within their discretion to run a different fuel flow measurement method without the permission of the FIA.

I expect their appeal will be on the grounds that they did not in fact exceed the limit, and gained no advantage from their actions... and despite Christian Horner's level of confidence it could go either way. The last report I heard was that although they have lodged their intention to appeal, they have not yet actually tabled the appeal (but have a few more hours to do so).

Actually Mercedes were warned about the same issue. They chose to turn down their engines a bit to avoid the problem.

Formula one has been about getting around the rules at least since the 80s, and RBR have been very good at it. The camera mounting is very much in the category of satisfies the letter of the law, but very much goes against the spirit. I like the approach of using the camera mount as an extra wing actually (is it only the one team who did this?).

CreamK said:

What they meant by this is to use all power available. They got 100l of fuel to go full 1½h race. The fuel flow is limited to 100l/h. That means they need to use around 67l/h on average, this of course decreases during braking and is almost at max during acceleration. Also energy recovery and the release of that energy has some leeway to be used in different ratios, it is limited to 33s per lap. How that energy is divided, is up to the team.. So they will have the full boost of 160hp from ERS and full 100l/h fuel flow when using "push to pass" button but it's nowhere near the common definition of that function. Traditional push to pass is high boost, on 2014 F1 it means few percentages of power. The correct term would be "overtake mode".

RBR infringed fuel flow rule and no other team had been even warned, FIA has guidelines that teams should calibrate with enough margins to void minor differences between sensors. RBR refused to do this and counted on FIA not counting that marginal change. FIA had stated pre-season that in no case there will be extra fuel flow allowed, it's almost zero tolerance policy.

They've done this before, made a marginal rule infringement and got away with Charlie Whitings slap on the wrist:"change it to the next race".. Their camera mountings is already one of those little things that is technically legal and at the same is not.. It all depends if the TV crews can find a suitable camera. If they say "no", the rules are clear: they need unobstructed view.. That small hole hardly allow high quality picture, the only lens that could even remotely suffice is fisheye lens with a mask: it is not their standard equipment.. RBR most likely will have to change those too (imho, so should merc camera pods and mclaren parachutes too). Compare that to Williams 360 camera pod and it's pretty clear what FIA means by "enough room to fit camera" means.

Last year they had holes on the floor in monaco: ruling was, change them to the next race.. Then there was the TC scandal, RBR used illegal engine mappings.. They used them last year too when there was a ban of feeding fuel to exhaust during zero throttle to feed the blown diffuser: RBR chuckled and used them anyway.. They still have the duct inside the nose, it violates the intention of the rule but is legal technically. Of course the severity of the punishment is a clear sign: FIA just showed that no more of that bullshit, RBR has to start respecting rules.

Transforming Formula One: 2014 Rules Explained by Red Bull

CreamK says...

What they meant by this is to use all power available. They got 100l of fuel to go full 1½h race. The fuel flow is limited to 100l/h. That means they need to use around 67l/h on average, this of course decreases during braking and is almost at max during acceleration. Also energy recovery and the release of that energy has some leeway to be used in different ratios, it is limited to 33s per lap. How that energy is divided, is up to the team.. So they will have the full boost of 160hp from ERS and full 100l/h fuel flow when using "push to pass" button but it's nowhere near the common definition of that function. Traditional push to pass is high boost, on 2014 F1 it means few percentages of power. The correct term would be "overtake mode".

RBR infringed fuel flow rule and no other team had been even warned, FIA has guidelines that teams should calibrate with enough margins to void minor differences between sensors. RBR refused to do this and counted on FIA not counting that marginal change. FIA had stated pre-season that in no case there will be extra fuel flow allowed, it's almost zero tolerance policy.

They've done this before, made a marginal rule infringement and got away with Charlie Whitings slap on the wrist:"change it to the next race".. Their camera mountings is already one of those little things that is technically legal and at the same is not.. It all depends if the TV crews can find a suitable camera. If they say "no", the rules are clear: they need unobstructed view.. That small hole hardly allow high quality picture, the only lens that could even remotely suffice is fisheye lens with a mask: it is not their standard equipment.. RBR most likely will have to change those too (imho, so should merc camera pods and mclaren parachutes too). Compare that to Williams 360 camera pod and it's pretty clear what FIA means by "enough room to fit camera" means.

Last year they had holes on the floor in monaco: ruling was, change them to the next race.. Then there was the TC scandal, RBR used illegal engine mappings.. They used them last year too when there was a ban of feeding fuel to exhaust during zero throttle to feed the blown diffuser: RBR chuckled and used them anyway.. They still have the duct inside the nose, it violates the intention of the rule but is legal technically. Of course the severity of the punishment is a clear sign: FIA just showed that no more of that bullshit, RBR has to start respecting rules.

oritteropo said:

Are you sure? The radio call to Bottas was "use your push to pass button"!

RBR have appealed, and claim that the sensor was wrong (and reckon they can prove it). That could go either way in the final wash-up.

eric3579 (Member Profile)

oritteropo says...

Well you know what cheating mongrels us Aussies can be when there's a sporting competition involved... like the infamous underarm ball - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_FnSfVSG6c

It's really the team and not the driver though. This year each car is required to be fitted with an FIA fuel sensor to ensure that they don't exceed the maximum 100kg/hr fuel flow. In this case, the team found that the sensor was reading a bit high, so complying with it would mean a loss of power... so they changed the ECU settings to ignore it and go with their calculated values instead. They had been told to use the readings from the sensor, but with an offset applied, but chose not to because they felt it was still inaccurate.

The basis for the steward's decision to exclude the car was that "it is not within their discretion to run a different fuel flow measurement method without the permission of the FIA"

I imagine that the basis of their appeal against this decision will be that they did not actually exceed the maximum, it was a sensor error that made it appear that they did so, and that they therefore gained no advantage.

My sources for this are mostly these two articles - http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ricciardo-excluded-from-melbourne-result/ and http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/red-bull-confident-of-winning-fuel-flow-appeal/

eric3579 said:

So whats up with that cheating Australian Is that something the driver did or the team and were they aware they were breaking the rules? How does it even happen?

F1 Belgium Grand Prix: First Crash on Corner

ZappaDanMan says...

>> ^NetRunner:

>> ^ZappaDanMan:
Romain Grosjean has been given a one race suspension for causing the first-lap collision at the Belgian Grand Prix, and also imposed a €50,000 fine.

I personally don't get what a penalty like that is supposed to accomplish, you mean next time when he's wheel to wheel with someone he should just yield the position without trying?
I mean, he fucked up, but this kind of crap happens all the time further back in the line, and people don't get suspended from the next race for it. I guess the standard now is if you knock out a star like Alonso or Hamilton you face a much stiffer penalty than if you knock out Timo Glock or Heikki Kovalienen.
I guess it's a much bigger safety risk if you endanger the FIA's bottom line than it is if you endanger someone's life by being stupid...


Agreed.. unless you have a rich father to payoff official for penalties like Pastor Maldanado. He failed to slow down at the scene of an accident at Monaco in GP2, despite the presence of warning flags, and struck and seriously injured a marshal. He was banned from the sport, until his father stepped in and payed large sums of money.
He continues to be a reckless drive (not aggressive, reckless) and will injure someone in F1, with the likes of his multiple incidents he's had this season. Give someone like him fines means nothing.

He should not have a super licence.

F1 Belgium Grand Prix: First Crash on Corner

NetRunner says...

>> ^ZappaDanMan:

Romain Grosjean has been given a one race suspension for causing the first-lap collision at the Belgian Grand Prix, and also imposed a €50,000 fine.


I personally don't get what a penalty like that is supposed to accomplish, you mean next time when he's wheel to wheel with someone he should just yield the position without trying?

I mean, he fucked up, but this kind of crap happens all the time further back in the line, and people don't get suspended from the next race for it. I guess the standard now is if you knock out a star like Alonso or Hamilton you face a much stiffer penalty than if you knock out Timo Glock or Heikki Kovalienen.

I guess it's a much bigger safety risk if you endanger the FIA's bottom line than it is if you endanger someone's life by being stupid...

F1 Belgium Grand Prix: First Crash on Corner

F1 Belgium Grand Prix: First Crash on Corner

oritteropo says...

They've talked about it, and the FIA has done some tests, but there are down-sides to all their current proposals and nothing is likely to happen soon.
>> ^Deano:

I wonder if they'll pre-empt a possible decapitation and start fitting a wide rollbar over the heads of the drivers? Don't know how structurally strong that would be but something similar perhaps?

When pit stops go dramatically wrong

ZappaDanMan says...

Luckly there was no other race cars coming down the pitlane. See the snap reaction of the wheel gun guys on the far side, ran straight into the driving lane (I think this was the F1 era, before pit lane speed limiters).

After an investigation by 'Intertechnique' at Benetton's team factory, FIA (the sports ruling body) revealed that the team had been using an illegal fuel valve, without a fuel filter. This pumped fuel into the car 12.5% faster than a normal, legal fuel valve that had a filter.


Edit: Just checked that in 1994: Pit lane speed limited to 80km/h in practice, 120 km/h in the race. Fire-protective clothing for all refuelling crews Burns treatment material in each pit obligatory. Still, I wouldn't want to be hit by a F1 car at 120kph.

257.7 MPH Standing Mile World Record Ford GT 2012 Texas Mile

conan says...

Hmmm where does this mention a world record? all i could see is some sort of certificate issued by the owner of the race track. wouldn't a world record need proof by i don't know FIA, Guiness World Records ony similar?

Marshall Double Fail at Canadian Grand Prix

CreamK says...

Yeah but we needed this chaos. The previous season were so dull that i didn't even watch all the races, something i haven't done since 1991. There has always been these watershed moments in F1; teams coming up with groundbreaking inventions and FIA regulating them.. Just think ground effect, active suspensions, turbos all of them effectively changing the sport at the time. This is not the first time FIA introduces new stuff but this time they made the cars faster instead slower, as the main trend has been.

But the main thing is to listen to drivers and they all like this season a lot! Chaos brings life to stagnation..

Marshall Double Fail at Canadian Grand Prix

westy says...

>> ^robbersdog49:

This really, really was the GP with everything, even light relief! The marshal running to Vettel's car when he crashed in FP1 stacked it pretty good too )


First good f1 race of this season , despite that just about every FIA desisoin was retarded , and DRS gave button and Weber a free pass on michael schumacher.

Start under safty car , Keep safty car out for so long that drivers dont evan need to use wet tires , 2 DRS pionts when evan the 1 DRS gave a driver in a competative car a free pass.

Overlay of Formula 1 vs. "fast" GT cars on the same track

Formula 1 RIP, 1950-2009. (Sports Talk Post)

Formula 1 RIP, 1950-2009. (Sports Talk Post)

Formula 1 RIP, 1950-2009. (Sports Talk Post)

therealblankman says...

>> ^NetRunner:
This is premature.


I'm not so sure, while it may at first glance seem a bargaining tactic you can be sure that these manufacturers don't make such moves lightly. As well Ecclestone and FIA would surely see through such a move if it were merelely a ploy.

Don't forget how the Indy Racing League was formed.



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