Yeah, great post.

The science on the sift is great, I'm new and it's what attracted me here, plus the cat videos .

You may find this interesting:

http://www.dangerouslaboratories.org/h2homesystem.pdf

It's the same set-up...

Electrolysis powered by the excess energy from photo-voltaic cells, where hydrogen and oxygen are stored as a gas and then used in hydrogen fuel cell to create electric current as required.

To me the revelation here isn't so much the solar power; the increase in efficiency of photo-voltaic cells is exciting, but not new conceptually.

Storing the fuel locally as gas, then using a hydrogen fuel cell to generate the electric current is however very nice as domestic scale systems go.

Big though, isn't it?

I'm still trying to understand precisely how the energy in the system works from a physics point of view; if they're using an electrolyte, and why noble metal components are used. Any help?

It is a new form of electrolysis, pupportedly a lot more efficient and using nowhere near the same ammounts of rare-earth elements that existing tech uses to extract hydrogen from water.

It is not over unity / perpetual motion etc...it takes energy to get it going, and needs water to keep it going, just the same as a conventional car. Water is consumed in the process.

Pretty scant detail, but for those who are interested in researching this further:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genepax#Genepax_Water_Energy_System

Is this electrolysis or something else?

By best, I meant the best source we have now that could fill demand if we began replacing combustion engines with fuel cells. Unless they've made a huge discovery in the past couple of months, the last time I checked, with current methods of electrolysis, it actually takes about twice as much energy to separate the hydrogen from water than the energy that is stored in the hydrogen you get out. Then you also have to take into account the energy required to compress or liquefy the hydrogen for storage.

"If they would just put some high end solar cells on the top you could just put tap water in it and not worry about finding an H2 gas station."

If only it were that simple. Water is not the best source of hydrogen since it only has a measly 2 hydrogen atoms per molecule, so the source of hydrogen will more than likely still come from sources that will pollute. Even if we extract the hydrogen from water, it takes a lot of energy to separate the hydrogen from water, so you're basically removing the pollution from cars but adding it in the fuel production.

To be truly sustainable, renewable and clean, we would have to use natural, renewable sources of electricity, such as wind, solar, etc., to power the electrolysis plants for refining hydrogen from water. One day we may get there, but the biggest obstacle are the oil goons who want to keep us dependent on their oil and refineries to keep them rich.

Oooh, the tube surrounded in controversy and doubt that I'm too lazy to test...

(Yes, I know what electrolysis is, and no, that's not even close to how you do it).

I'm not disputing that it might be useful to turn water into
hydrogen and oxygen for ease of transport and use, but one
main corollary of thermodynamics is that "there ain't no free
lunch". Even if this was electrolysis via RF (which I doubt;
look at the miniscule bubbles - they can't support that size
flame) and was 100 percent efficient, all you've done is converted
the electrical energy into chemical energy. This is measured
in one way by Gibbs free energy for 2H2O -> 2H2 + O2, what
one could call "the integrity of the water molecule", which
is really the difference in free energy of the bonds in
water and the gases 2H2 and O2. What it looks like to me
is similar to what happens when you put a candle in a microwave
oven. Check out these videos:

and

The first shows the plasma can be initiated on the smoke alone,
while the second shows the plasma dissociated from the flame once
it gets started. I think that what is happening in this saltwater
situation is a little salty water is ejected from the tube which
then starts a plasma going, which is constrained to appear as a flame
because the RF is restricted to the area above the tube, rather
than the whole cavity of a microwave, where the plasma can rise to the
top of the inverted glass.

Constitutional_Patriot,

I watched both your videos. This guy has only invented a more efficient method of ordinary electrolysis, and he has miscalculated the energy input. Maybe he didn't account for the effects of induction. His suppression of the details is reason to suspect that he's a deliberate fraud. If he really cared about free energy for the world he would make the details public. When an academic discovers something they publish all the details quickly and that proves they were the first to invent it. Distrust anybody who refuses to show you all the details of a so-called "demonstration". Keeping it secret won't protect his invention. It would just make it easier for people to steal his invention or prevent it from reaching the market by killing him. So this guy is either an idiot or a fraud.

From his own website:
" The egas (Hydrogen/Oxygen or Hydroxy Gas or electrolysis gas) produced acts like a catalysis to your fuel. Get higher octane combustion. Utilizing oxy-hydrogen gas to boost a fossil fuel with a complete burn of all the hydrocarbons, produes a way cleaner emmission. In fact so clean you will not pass the SMOG test. (disconnect it when at the SMOG test.) Best of all you will be driving with cleaner emissions! You can easily make one yourself. Hydro-boosters will work with any ICE engine, diesel too. Actually combusts better with diesel! Small lawnmower engines too. Any size engine."

The directive to disconnect it at the smog test is bullshit, intended to hide its lack of effect, IMO. He just wants to make money from selling the parts.

I suppose he could have come up with a more energy efficient method of electrolysis, but that isn't what the report says. I cannot fathom how anybody could be so simple as to not ask about the energy input and output of the system.

The laws of thermodynamics imply that their radio wave generator is using at least as much energy as the fire is producing. There's no way to reorganize saltwater into chemicals with higher total binding energy (unless a nuclear reaction occurs). He basically just invented a cool new method of electrolysis. It will only be useful for cars if he can separate and store the hydrogen & oxygen before they react.

The reporters in this video are ignorant like George Bush -- hydrogen from electrolysis is just an energy medium. The energy for electrolysis has to come from somewhere, typically the electrical power grid, which in the US is powered mostly by fossil fuels. Non fuel cell electric cars are satisfactory -- we need to work on more environmentally friendly ways of generating power for the grid.

This was on Mythbusters, admittedly not the most scientific of guys.
Episode 53
Great Gas Conspiracy

Myth: Automakers and fuel suppliers are in collusion to keep us dependent on expensive gasoline and inefficient cars. There are many devices that one can use to cut your fuel consumption.

They got a carbureted car and a fuel-injected car to test several types of devices. The cars were placed on a dynamometer, which allows the car to drive without moving anywhere.

Test devices and additives:

* Fuel line magnets: working on the "principles of hydrodynamics," they are supposed to align the molecules for more efficient consumption.
* Acetone additive: supposed to make gasoline burn more efficiently
* 300mpg 'super' carburetor
* Hydrogen fuel cell generator: flammable hydrogen gas produced by electrolysis. Adam labeled it "Gasbuster: Stickin' it to the Man"

They tested each car on the dynamometer at 35mph and 55mph with each 'device.'

Carburetor car:

* Baseline: 17mpg at 35mph and 25mpg at 55mph
* Magnets: exactly the same as baseline busted
* Acetone: 16.7mpg at 35mph and 24mpg at 55mph busted
* Super carb: much worse than baseline, 12mpg at 35mph and 17.7mpg at 55mph busted

Fuel-injected car

* Baseline: 19mpg at 35mph and 27mpg at 55mph
* Magnets: 18mpg at 35mph and 26mpg at 55mph busted
* Acetone: 18mpg at 35mph and 26mpg at 55mph busted

Your comment on this story are the comments that made sense to me, and I am with you when you say a car that is powered by water should be the dream of most people on the planet. Unless you sell oil then your dream would be to hope it never happens.

In reply to your comment:
“ Hello, just wanted to comment on fuel cells, as some of the information posted about them isn't quite right. Fuel cells are not batteries, they are load-following electricity generators. As and when a fuel, in the case of hydrogen fuel cells, hydrogen, is fed into what is usually a stack of cells, electricity and H20 are created via a simple electro-chemical process (like the reverse of electrolysis). Hydrogen is not energy intensive to isolate except when it is reformed from hydro-carbons via certain methods (this is perhaps why certain people seem to be taking a shine to fuel cells right). In fact, Hydrogen can be obtained easily from solar panels & wind power with an electrolyser, but best of all, from waste. In a completely zero emission system, anaerobic digesters, pyrolysis and hydrogen fuel cells (pretty much in that order) can work in harmony to turn almost any waste into electricity and pure water in a closed loop in terms of the energy required to run each element. It's true that some fuel cells do use exotic materials, most all of them use platinum for example, and of course these being either mined or toxic materials are not friendly to people or the planet and should be avoided in clean energy solutions. Cenergie have developed a solution to this in a fuel cell system which uses only commodity materials and is 100% recyclable. If you'd like to find out more about fuel cells and clean waste to energy systems, have a poke around www.cenergie.com, it's cute and full of info. I can't comment on this man's technology, although given the state of our planet, we might champion technology which makes water, instead of burning it up. Power for peace, alkagirl*”

Hello, just wanted to comment on fuel cells, as some of the information posted about them isn't quite right. Fuel cells are not batteries, they are load-following electricity generators. As and when a fuel, in the case of hydrogen fuel cells, hydrogen, is fed into what is usually a stack of cells, electricity and H20 are created via a simple electro-chemical process (like the reverse of electrolysis). Hydrogen is not energy intensive to isolate except when it is reformed from hydro-carbons via certain methods (this is perhaps why certain people seem to be taking a shine to fuel cells right). In fact, Hydrogen can be obtained easily from solar panels & wind power with an electrolyser, but best of all, from waste. In a completely zero emission system, anaerobic digesters, pyrolysis and hydrogen fuel cells (pretty much in that order) can work in harmony to turn almost any waste into electricity and pure water in a closed loop in terms of the energy required to run each element. It's true that some fuel cells do use exotic materials, most all of them use platinum for example, and of course these being either mined or toxic materials are not friendly to people or the planet and should be avoided in clean energy solutions. Cenergie have developed a solution to this in a fuel cell system which uses only commodity materials and is 100% recyclable. If you'd like to find out more about fuel cells and clean waste to energy systems, have a poke around www.cenergie.com, it's cute and full of info. I can't comment on this man's technology, although given the state of our planet, we might champion technology which makes water, instead of burning it up. Power for peace, alkagirl*

Hello, just wanted to comment on fuel cells, as some of the information posted about them isn't quite right. Fuel cells are not batteries, they are load-following electricity generators. As and when a fuel, in the case of hydrogen fuel cells, hydrogen, is fed into what is usually a stack of cells, electricity and H20 are created via a simple electro-chemical process (like the reverse of electrolysis). Hydrogen is not energy intensive to isolate except when it is reformed from hydro-carbons via certain methods (this is perhaps why certain people seem to be taking a shine to fuel cells right). In fact, Hydrogen can be obtained easily from solar panels & wind power with an electrolyser, but best of all, from waste. In a completely zero emission system, anaerobic digesters, pyrolysis and hydrogen fuel cells (pretty much in that order) can work in harmony to turn almost any waste into electricity and pure water in a closed loop in terms of the energy required to run each element. It's true that some fuel cells do use exotic materials, most all of them use platinum for example, and of course these being either mined or toxic materials are not friendly to people or the planet and should be avoided in clean energy solutions. Cenergie have developed a solution to this in a fuel cell system which uses only commodity materials and is 100% recyclable. If you'd like to find out more about fuel cells and clean waste to energy systems, have a poke around www.cenergie.com, it's cute and full of info. I can't comment on this man's technology, although given the state of our planet, we might champion technology which makes water, instead of burning it up. Power for peace, alkagirl*