Is it nuance to be an innocent family on the receiving end of a high explosive round? Last time I checked, whether it's via gas or a shell, death is death. Do you think the Palestinians suffer less fear waiting to see if they are about to die? That you raise scale as a method of differentiation is laughable. Israel has has ~70 years of slowly whittling away at Palestine and it's people.

And the facile differentiation between a German concentration camp and Gaza is beneath you. You would much rather not live in fucking either, and neither would all of us if we were given a choice. That the Israelis are going about the business of eliminating Palestine slowly is more about international backlash. If they thought they could get away with it, they'd sweep them in to the sea and be done with it.

And in response to the invocation of Godwin's Law, you do understand that the purpose of the Godwin is to reduce/remove ludicrous hyperbole, not to shut down legitimate comparisons? Much as you could draw parallels with Idi Armin, Stalin/Russia etc, Israel is engaging in similar tactics. Fascism, racism, segregation, making war on civilians etc. That it isn't a 100% carbon copy is irrelevant.

I definitely agree with you on the democracy point - my whole post was mostly an attempt to explain what I perceive to be the main factors that drive Israeli democracy toward the oppression we see over the Palestinians. The nutters on the hilltop have very little influence on this drive, but the combined forces of Jewish nationalism and protective insulation go a long way toward making these policies successful in Israel's free and democratic society.

I guess, then, in an extremely limited respect I agree with you on the 4th reich thing just because of the comparison between complacent German citizens who were only patriotic and insulated from the realities of Jewish suffering and Jews who are only patriotic and insulated from the realities of Palestinian suffering.

That being said, using the term "Fourth Reich" doesn't illuminate this sort of nuance and instead it accuses Israel of many extremes of which it is not guilty. For example Nazi Germany was guilty of a truly unprecedented campaign to methodically exterminate vast populations based on their ethnicity, and they were literally bent on world domination - I have many harsh criticisms for Israel, but if you think that Israel's conduct can be reasonably compared to that then you are delusional.

In a similar vein, while I do think that Gaza in many ways is the world's largest prison, it is not in any way comparable to Nazi concentration camps. I would much rather live in present day Gaza than be in a Nazi concentration camp, for one, and secondly I think that Israel's policy towards Gaza can better be described as one of control and marginalization, whereas the Nazi's goals with concentration camps was straight up efficient extermination.

So long story short, don't fall prey to the "reductio ad hitlerum" fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum) and make a more careful comparison between Israel's and Nazi Germany's respective civilian populations and I'd be more inclined to agree with your point.

They may be rare (I doubt it), but last time I checked, Israel is a democracy. The people keep voting in people who aggressively attack and expand in to what little is left to the Palestinians. Standing by and pleading ignorance is not good enough.

I did not call Israel the 4th Reich, I said the 4th Reich is alive and well in Israel. I'm sure not every person cheered on the Nazi's either, but we don't really make that distinction often when talking about the 3rd Reich because it led, and most people either followed or allowed it to lead. The fact that Palestine, a country in name only, is basically the largest concentration camp in the world strikes a disturbing parallel.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with a hell of a lot of what you say in your post, and you seem to be a reasonable and grounded person when it comes to this topic, but Israel has constantly held the upper hand since it's inception, backed by even bigger friends. If it were two kids in the schoolyard, we'd call em out for exactly what they are, a bully, and a cowardly one at that.

Please do give us a closer look at ISIS is doing. Massacres, torture, rape, collective punishment and on, correct? Maybe killing what, 100 people at a time in the worst instances? That doesn't distinguish them from Saddam. Within Saddam's rule those crimes are what guys like yourself colloquially referred to as Saddam's 'firm' hand. They are his, so to speak, lesser and more routine crimes. I'd left them beneath mention thus far.

If you must insist on parroting your ignorance of Saddams al-Anfal campaign I'll resort to posting excerpts as evidence that the gassing was but a small part of it.

4,500 Kurdish villages were destroyed by Saddam, that's entire villages turned to rubble.
182,000 dead civilians by counts gleaned from Saddam's own records of how many Kurds his forces had succeeded in eliminating.
The concentration camps Saddam ran were pretty clearly modeled after Hitler's:
With only minor variations ... the standard pattern for sorting new arrivals [at Topzawa was as follows]. Men and women were segregated on the spot as soon as the trucks had rolled to a halt in the base's large central courtyard or parade ground. The process was brutal ... A little later, the men were further divided by age, small children were kept with their mothers, and the elderly and infirm were shunted off to separate quarters. Men and teenage boys considered to be of an age to use a weapon were herded together.

The conditions within the camp were terrible and torture, abuse and beatings were routine. The men of fighting age though were sorted for the express purpose to later drive them out into the desert by bus or truck for mass execution. This is how Saddam carried his genocide of the inhabitants of the 4,500 villages he'd destroyed.

Anyone interested in more or questioning the veracity of the above account can find more and endless references and evidence here:
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1993/iraqanfal/index.htm#TopOfPage

As for American policy, I don't quite see where I suddenly bear personal responsibility to clean up the world if I choose to form my opinions on world events independently of it's 'fit' to American policy.

I don't care much if it was Bush or Putin that took Saddam out of power aside from hedging on which would leave a better Iraq, either would be tough not to be an improvement from Saddam. Similarly for Sudan or the Congo, I'd be rather glad if world powers finally cared enough to try and spare the people there suffering under brutal military repression and endless war crimes. I'm not quite sure why you wouldn't share such a view?

Saddam started the Iran Iraq war, which saw over a million dead, including the most prolific deployment of chemical weapons since WW1.

Saddam followed that up with the Al-Anfal campaign. Read up on it, it's one of the most brutal attempts at genocide in recent history, including chemical weapons, concentration camps, over a hundred thousand deaths and an effort to breed the Kurds out of existence through systematic rape of Kurdish women.

Saddam followed that up with the complete annexation of Kuwait. Effectively removing a UN member state and claiming at as part of his Iraq.

Saddam followed up his forced removal from Kuwait with a retaliatory genocide of Shia Iraqis again topping a hundred thousand dead again.

But yeah, he fortunately lacked the military might to succeed in such ventures for a time. He was bluffing having stocks of chemical and nuclear weapons to keep his neighbours in check. Pity he was removed from power then and we didn't wait till he could make good on his bluff.

Rodman says he hopes this shows that we can co-exist with each other...

How far is he removed from his situation? Kim Jong Un as good as murdered his uncle for power just a few weeks ago. Kim Jong Un is holding as many of his own people in concentration camps as the Nazi's did and with no better conditions. His country is the largest example of slavery existent today.

We DO NOT WANT to co-exist with the monsters that would rule in this way. I do not care if the man is really nice to you personally and to the friends and family loyal to him(at least until they 'betray' him like his uncle). He is at the same time, that nice guy to those he cares about, and cruel slave driver of the North Korean majority at the same time.

What he's doing now is probably the most effective way of getting the word out. Going to trial, even if that happened and he didn't simply disappear or die or get locked up in some concentration camp, would be unlikely to do much. The trial would simply be held behind closed doors and all documents sealed on national security grounds.

@enoch

Watch the video that was the point. We should be helping those in the Tea Party, getting them the right information and bringing them together to protest who's really at fault. A lot of them are being fed BS and that is only going to harm them in the end.

They all have legitimate grievances, those should be addressed. Not the ones about FEMA Concentration camps or Death Panels.

I find it really strange that she wants to bring awareness to the issue without any means of understanding. We don't know why she became anorexic, only that one day poof she's an extra for a concentration camp documentary. The only real reason according to the video to not eat is because then people will look at you funny and not want to associate with you. Finally why is it that she has not improved in her condition? Is she staying skinny to show off what not to be? If that were the case she knows its not working since shes getting emails from others wanting to be like her.

Also, what the hell is that pink thing in the background? 1:57

I dunno, I think they're playing with meanings here. We use the word "happiness" to describe two very different things: 1) an emotion of well-being (which is always temporary) and 2) a general sense of fulfillment or satisfaction with one's life (which could be quite stable).

So yeah, money used in the way shown here can buy the 1st meaning of happiness but I don't think it's necessary for the 2nd (although it might help). For instance, Victor Frankl was able to find the 2nd meaning of happiness even while suffering at the hands of Nazi's in a concentration camp--he found things like the love for his wife, his work as a doctor, his camaraderie with his fellow prisoners meaningful enough to overcome the dark circumstances which he was surrounded by.

Ultimately I think it is we who are responsible for transcending our circumstances and environments (whether those be affluent or otherwise ) and creating our own happiness. But I do think the video does show us one way we can start down that path (i.e. by thinking of others and not just ourselves).

>> ^PostalBlowfish:

>> ^Jinx:Firstly he isn't giving any credit to Hitler.

Yeah, that's pretty much exactly what he did do. It's not like he was saying he liked Hitler or something, but the one sentence that referenced Hitler gave him credit for liquifying coal.
Not sure why anyone cares, though. He mentioned a positive thing Hitler might have been involved in, and it stands to reason that there must have been a few positives to the guy. But when you bring him up, you're going to catch some shit (I guess) if you don't end up condemning him.
And now, in order to avoid hand-launched vegetables, I conclude with...
That Hitler, what a horrible guy!

Ok, you even mention Hitler and you immediately have to finish your sentence with some bullshit disclaimer. I mean, the article in the OP contradicts its title by the second paragraph by way of explaining that Mitt wasn't actually supporting Hitlers politics with this statement but then close by saying he should be more tactful? Tactful for who? For the morons who'd take something so far out of context that a offhand comment about Hitler's energy policy suddenly becomes a call for the massacre of Jews? Fuck. That.


You notice how frequently people are outraged on behalf of "some people" - This unnamed silent group almost entirely fabricated for the purpose of a narrative. This is a non story with a bunch of chumps sitting around talking about how Mitt should watch his words in case "some people" get the wrong end of the stick. Find me these vegetable launchers, and if you do please explain to me why they matter?

Its sad because I think politicians are so afraid of being eviscerated for such minor "tactless" comments that they frequently end up saying nothing at all. We the people end up paying for this allergic reaction with politicians who will only answer in platitudes. It goes for policy too frankly. Perhaps if the democrats aim was to fulfill their promises rather than avoiding raising the ire of their opponents then more would have been done in the last 4 years...

As for the advances in science made by the Nazi regime...well thats tricky. Perhaps its unfortunate that we can't put some knowledge back in the box if it was discovered unethically. Still, the idea of liquified coal is quite seperate to say, the genetic experiments in concentration camps. We use Jet Engines that were first put to practical use by the Nazis, rocket science was given a big boost by the advances made in developing the V2...the list goes on. Unfortunately war of any kind is a big motivation for inovation. Even if we could, should we forget the advances made that have a loose connection to an ideology we oppose?

Wow. Just wow. I can't help but imagine Romney as a visitor to the Russian goulags or the concentration camps. "The Germans told me they take the poor Jews off the streets and out of the ghettos and give them warm beds and clean showers in their very own holiday camps!"

@rbar I didn't call you a socialist, I don't know you that well! It was about your portrayal of capitalism. Also, I apologize for referring to free market capitalism, subject of this topic, as just "capitalism", that caused understandable confusion. I completely agree with you that some of those "isms" fall under a broader definition of capitalism, as they're social orders dependent on private property rights. Those who advocate free markets like me, however, really tend to consider free market capitalism as the only real one, while variations are just "less capitalistic" or not capitalism at all.

Any economic system is as cooperative as the next? Hmm... I don't know, rbar. Would you say there's as much cooperation inside North Korea as there is in South Korea? The old East and West Germanies? Surely any country with a lesser economy enjoys much less cooperation of their citizens among themselves (or with other countries) than a country where policy favors economic growth, no? Very common in North Korea, the "do what I tell or you'll starve in a concentration camp" approach, just isn't my favorite definition of cooperation. Coincidence or not, their economy is shit.

You raise a very important issue of limited resources, that wikipedia article on Capitalism explains better than I ever could, that counter-arguments to "those criticisms of the depletion of finite natural resources consists of the economic Law of Diminishing Returns, opportunity cost, and scarcity in economics". Interesting stuff.

My issue is with you portrayal of capitalism as ever-increasing competitiveness, because it's kind of biased and overlooks the abundance of cooperation. Imagine looking at a crowded night club and describing it simplistically as "a bunch of people struggling for the attention of the opposite sex". Seems pretty accurate if one hates night clubs. There is competition going on, specially for the most popular people, but what about all the other people enjoying each other's company over drinks, talking, flirting, and laughing, couples making out and enjoying the music on the dance floor? Who would describe those activities as purely competitive?

There is a lot of supply and demand in a capitalistic economy, not trying to sound like an economist, but competition is proportional to the difference between supply and demand. So what about where supply is meeting demand, should we just overlook the huge amount of cooperation happening there?

I find it amusing that you ask "What? What policy?", then, at the end of the same paragraph, write "The way the bailout happened is ... utter crap, but that is a different story all together." No, it's not a different story, the bailouts are government/central bank policy, partly the answer to your important question. Stepping in and handing out money to bankers who should have been punished by their excessive risk-taking with bankruptcy, is the exact opposite of letting free markets work.

To try to answer your persistent request for examples of free markets, if you didn't realize it yet, free markets are not very compatible with central banks, institutions that have a legal monopoly over what happens to half of a country's economy (usually half of all economic transactions involve money). Now, do you know how many countries have central banks today? Except for Monaco and Andorra, all of them.

Centuries ago, there wasn't a single country in the world where people enjoyed freedom of expression. That fact could be considered an obstacle to its adoption, but never a testament to its impracticality.

Its a cake. Lighten up. Is you IQ less than 100? Just wondering because your argument is is lame.

Lock up all the Bobs. I hate Bobs. Bobs are bad. Bobs are evil.

>> ^VoodooV:

Cool, I can lock Bob up in a concentration camp just because his name is bob.
Who cares, right bob? It's just discrimination right? it's all for the lulz right? Discrimination puts hair on your chest mIrite?
It's my religious belief that all people named bob are evil so I'm protected from all criticism right?
As usual, Bob is clueless
>> ^bobknight33:
Who cares.
Every one gets discriminated for something at some point in time grow up and find another cake.
Get a life.
Its a mom and pop store he can deny service for any reason.

Cool, I can lock Bob up in a concentration camp just because his name is bob.

Who cares, right bob? It's just discrimination right? it's all for the lulz right? Discrimination puts hair on your chest mIrite?

It's my religious belief that all people named bob are evil so I'm protected from all criticism right?

As usual, Bob is clueless

>> ^bobknight33:

Who cares.
Every one gets discriminated for something at some point in time grow up and find another cake.
Get a life.
Its a mom and pop store he can deny service for any reason.