Since when is a gun the ONLY way to protect yourself? Buy a taser, buy a baseball bat, buy a billy-club. Invest in self-defense classes. Spend the $1000 on better locks or a thicker door.

You want to know what to do if someone burglarizes your house if you don't have a gun? Same as if you do have a gun... you're on your own, and you do your best to prevent yourself from being killed. If that means hiding in a closet, it's better that than dead.

The problem (as I see it) is that we're conflating every-day street crime (which is statistically more rare than it used to be) with horrific gun rampages (which are statistically more common than it used to be, and obviously more rare than every-day street crimes.) They're completely different animals. Choggie would have us believe that baseball bats are just as dangerous as AR15s. Certainly, statistically, that is true when we're discussing average crime-rates. However, I've never heard of someone bludgeoning a classroom full of preschoolers with a louisville slugger.

As Americans, we have to decide: are we OK with horrific gun rampages a few times every year? Is your right to own a military sidearm or rifle worth the occasional shooting spree? Maybe it is. Maybe that's the price of freedom.

Certainly, absolutely we need to address street crime and the factors that contribute to it. However, its obvious from these statistics that WE ARE. The crime rate has gone down.


And yet the shooting spree rate has gone up.

I'd love to see a similar video where the 'attackers' are blindfolded. They could just walk forward throwing punches, or swinging a baseball bat. Maybe they would fly backwards at just the right time... maybe not.

Dude how hard is it to follow this guy and hit him in the back of the legs with a baseball bat. Yeah it's wrong to commit violence on people, it is absolutely wrong. That is exactly what happens when cops don't do their job and stop this bastard from extorting people. I can't believe you put up with this for 2 and a half years without making threats or following through with them on your own. Heck even a warning brick through the window would force the cops to at least come around there and have more of a presence, thus stopping this practice.

Look we're not as evolved as we would like to believe, the level of morality is no greater than it was when Genghis Khan was about. Step the fuck up, if you don't want to hurt anyone fine but you should do something if the police don't step up.

>> ^L0cky:
I looked at a lot of sources, including CDC. They have a helpful compilation of their stats in the form of their CDC's 2007 chart book. It shows that firearm related deaths and poisoning are always less than motor vehicles; firearms are more likely to cause an early death; while death from poison is more likely to get you in middle age (possbily this includes long term effects of poisoning, ie working with hazardous materials when they were younger?).
It also doesn't show non death injuries; nor can the stats reflect the fact that every household has potential poisons while around half of households have firearms.
I took a look at the pdf, and while the charts are nice, they cover various date ranges and present their results in different formats, and I think you're misinterpreting them. What I did was use the search feature and look at the raw data. You can also search for non death injuries, but gun related non deadly injuries, accidental or intentional, doesn't even make the top 20, and it doesn't show anything below that.

>> ^L0cky:
In absolute terms it's inarguable that there are a lot of gun related deaths and injury in the US (around 31,000 deaths and 70,000 injuries per year give or take). This doesn't change simply because there are other causes of death and injury.
You just said that your source doesn't show non death injuries, yet now you're claiming 30,000 deaths and 70,000 injuries per year. You claim to be getting your sources from the same place, but the data from the CDC shows that between 1999 and 2010 the average homicide by firearm is 12,807 deaths per year. If you add accidental deaths involving firearms the total comes to 21,146 which accounts for 9.6% of all accidental and intentional deaths (this does not include suicide, illness and disease related deaths).

>> ^L0cky:
Let me be clear, my argument is that non sport firearms don't add anything positive to society that justifies the resulting gun related injury, death and crime. The granting of firearm licenses for hunting and sport should require strict licensing that's based on a requirement of training and testing. Gun control laws should be purposefully strict.
We already have plenty of gun control laws. More laws are not going to stop someone that has no intention of obeying them. You obviously did not read the whole article I linked to as it points out that "93 percent of the guns obtained by violent criminals are not obtained through lawful transactions that are the focus of most gun control legislation.

>> ^L0cky:
I haven't objected to this. My objection is to the suggestion that a societal need to teach children how to use firearms can be used to justify their existence. It's circular logic; and I'd prefer not to live in a society where learning to use firearms is a requirement of safety.
No one said that you need to teach children to use guns to justify their existence. You were a kid once (or still are), and at a certain age didn't you do the opposite of everything your parents said? If there is going to be a gun in a house, even if they are told it's dangerous and not to be played with and you do your best to lock it up and keep it away from them, if they do get their hands on it wouldn't it be better that they knew how to properly handle it so they don't end up adding to the accidental death by firearm statistic? Cars are dangerous too, but we teach our kids how to be safe in and around cars (wear your seat belt, look both ways before crossing street, etc.), why are you so freaked out about teaching a kid gun safety?

Your philosophy that kids shouldn't be taught how to use guns because guns are bad is basically the same as abstinence only sex education, AKA teaching ignorance.

>> ^L0cky:
I'm not stating this, I'm questioning it. You yourself said you own them for self defense.
I said I own guns for many reasons, self defense being one of them. You still seem to be confused about why someone chooses to carry a gun for self defense. It looks to me based on what you've written is that you assume someone carries a gun only to protect themselves from other gun owners. As I already pointed out, only 10% of violent crimes involve the use of a gun. I carry to protect myself from 100% of crimes.

>> ^L0cky:
That has zero effect on the number violent crimes that DO involve the use of a gun.
You can't pick out a small portion of a larger statistic to base your argument on, you need to take into account the whole picture. That's like saying 2001 was a slow year for terrorism, if you don't count the World Trade Center attacks.

>> ^L0cky:
This isn't a useful number unless you can show that those crimes would not have been prevented without guns; and would still have occurred without guns.
I don't know what more you expect, a crime was in progress, a lawfully armed citizen stopped it and it was reported to the police. What your asking isn't possible as the only way to know what would have happened in the other situations is to invent a time machine.

>> ^L0cky:
I guess your point is that gun ownership reduces crime. I'm open to that - if it can be shown more clearly.
What is clear from comparing to other countries, particularly those with comparative gun ownership is that the lack of gun control in the US correlates to an increase in gun related death and injury by an order of magnitude. The problem isn't gun ownership in and of itself; it's gun ownership without lack of appropriate gun control laws.
If guns don't reduce crime, then why do we give them to the police? Once more back to that article you didn't read:

"In 13 states citizens who wish to carry arms may do so, having met certain requirements. Consider Florida, which in 1987 enacted a concealed-carry law guaranteeing a gun permit to any resident who is at least 21, has no record of crime, mental illness or drug or alcohol abuse, and who has completed a firearms safety course. Florida's homicide rate fell following the enactment of this law, as did the rate in Oregon after the enactment of a similar law. Through June 1993, there had been 160,823 permits issued in Florida. Only 530, or 0.33 percent, of the applicants have been denied permits. This indicates that the law is serving the law abiding. Only l6 permits, less than 1/100th of 1 percent, have been rescinded because of the commission, after issuance, of a crime involving a firearm."

>> ^L0cky:
You're right, if guns suddenly vanished tomorrow there would still be crime and violence. However, it would be crime and violence without guns; and I think, that (of itself) is preferable. How could it not be?
Are you fucking serous? Why is a murder with a gun any worse than a knife, baseball bat or even bare hands? A murder is a murder no matter what tool is used to commit it. Other crimes besides murder would be better off without guns, but what part of 90% of violent crimes do not involve the use of a gun did you not understand? If you take away guns from everyone, you're only removing 10% of the tools used by violent criminals, and that doesn't guarantee that violent crime will drop by 10%? In reality you wouldn't be removing anything from criminals because "93 percent of the guns obtained by violent criminals are not obtained through lawful transactions that are the focus of most gun control legislation. So you essentially want to take away every law abiding citizen's right to defend themselves with a gun without doing anything to stop criminals from committing crimes with guns.

>> ^L0cky:
Crime in the UK has reduced dramatically according to The Office for National Statistics between before then (1999/2001) and now, including firearm offences. In Australia assault is up, robbery is down and sexual assault is about the same according to the Australian Institute of Criminology. Homicides involving firearms have continued to decline to their lowest on record.
From your source: "Provisional figures for the year ending June 2012 show that 5,507 firearm offences were recorded in England and Wales, an 18 per cent decrease on the previous year (6,694)." In 1997 when the ban was enacted only 2,648 crimes were reported involving guns. It looks like that ban has worked well.


>> ^L0cky:
I pulled it from the same source you are correcting me with
The CDC - Injury in the United States: 2007 Chart Book, page 24.
Statisticslol
This is where you have misinterpreted the graphs. The vertical portion of that graph is in deaths per 100,000 population. If you dig up the raw numbers from the search engine this is what you'll find:

Motor Vehicle Accident = 22%
Homicide by Firearm = 13%
Accident by Firearm = 0.5%

You made me picture the DeNiro scene from The Untouchables, except with Jobs as Capone.>> ^EvilDeathBee:

>> ^Reefie:
>> ^EvilDeathBee:
Jobs was probably more concerned by him saying that his mac had a problem, rather than the cursing

Yeah, truth hurts! I bet he unsubscribed from Adam Curry's podcasts soon after

I bet he came over to Curry's house afterwards with a baseball bat, smashing his stuff yelling "You made me look like an asshole out there!"

>> ^Reefie:

>> ^EvilDeathBee:
Jobs was probably more concerned by him saying that his mac had a problem, rather than the cursing

Yeah, truth hurts! I bet he unsubscribed from Adam Curry's podcasts soon after


I bet he came over to Curry's house afterwards with a baseball bat, smashing his stuff yelling "You made me look like an asshole out there!"

This is why I stay home on those nights when the stars are right, at home, under the bed, with a baseball bat.

As a biker, I've had people try and run me off the road for no reason at all. And by no reason, I mean me minding my own business while casually riding to work. At one point, I had a car full of thugs try to side swipe me because I gently honked my horn when they didn't leave from a green light after about 10 seconds. This same group of thugs followed me to the parking lot where I worked and 3 of them proceeded to get out of said care with what looked like tire irons and a baseball bat. If I hadn't been legally concealing a fire arm at the time things likely would not have ended well for me. As it was they decided it was a better idea to return to their car and drive away.

Things like this are why, even though I hate that I have to, I am always armed when riding in unfamiliar areas.

>> ^ChaosEngine:

>> ^GenjiKilpatrick:
Hah! But no, seriously.
@<a rel="nofollow" href="http://videosift.com/member/lantern53" title="member since August 6th, 2010" class="profilelink">lantern53 knows.. that depriving servers of a living wage and forcing them to bust their asses for 5% gratuity on a $130 check.. you know, builds character.
Struggling in quasi-poverty for years of your life is what the American Dream is all about! duh.
That's why Mitt Romney is such a great American and needs to be President.
He knows what it's like.. to force people to struggle. For their own good.
p.s. - Everyone knows that raising the minimum wage is just another Socialist/Marxist scheme by Obama to disenfranchise the Job Creators in this country.
While I completely agree that people should be paid a living wage, I don't really have a problem with tipping. People should bust their asses in their job, especially if your job is customer facing. Customer service in the USA is so much better than almost anywhere else I've been, (it's particularly bad in NZ)


Just a meaningless anecdote (just find it funny that you mention it):

I went to Sydney once (15 years ago) and the very first day, I went to a place called the Juba Cafe. My friend and I were surprised to find porridge on the menu, because all I knew of porridge was from Oliver Twist or Little Orphan Annie. Our server, who's name was Anna, was really surprised to hear it, so she bought us porridge to convince us it was good. It was. Then, after we ate (before we tipped her) she invited us over to her apartment for some wine that night. When we got there, she had invited all her friends over to meet "her new Americans." They gave us wine, we talked for a long time about NZ (where she was from) and they rolled me the first "baseball bat" that I ever smoked, with the the little cardboard filter in it and everything. They also introduced me to Aphex Twin (the "Richard D. James Album") and we bonded over Ween, which I was surprised to hear they knew all about, even in 97'. So, after we were completely blitzed, Anna and her friends took us out to dinner, where we ate and drank and talked for hours and didn't pay a dime while these guys all treated us to a great first night in their city. I'm not even sure how we got home, but they sure didn't let anything bad happen to us.

The reason I mention it, is that I would say it was, easily, the best service I've ever had in my entire life, anywhere. We had to leave town the next day and I never saw or spoke to any of those guys again. I really wish I'd kept in contact with them because I owe them so much more than a night out. I still roll a fat bat and pop in the Aphex Twin on a pretty regular basis.

Or, you know, grow for personal consumption only.

>> ^Auger8:

That wasn't a robbery he just gave them that shit, the dude had a kid sized baseball bat and that's it, WTF like three times he sets the bat down even. And you keep that much weed and money and around with not one weapon to defend yourself with, you asked for that shit to happen dude. And ya that's why you don't advertise on Youtube that your a dealer lol.
[edit] He says on his channel they've done this to him twice too. Geez get a better door or a can of mace or something dude.

That wasn't a robbery he just gave them that shit, the dude had a kid sized baseball bat and that's it, WTF like three times he sets the bat down even. And you keep that much weed and money and around with not one weapon to defend yourself with, you asked for that shit to happen dude. And ya that's why you don't advertise on Youtube that your a dealer lol.

[edit] He says on his channel they've done this to him twice too. Geez get a better door or a can of mace or something dude.

where did he get that baseball bat?

>> ^Gallowflak:

I was being fatuous.
>> ^A10anis:
>> ^Gallowflak:
Awesome! Except I wouldn't really call Coventry a "town". When I was growing up there it was a perpetually miserable, industrial city, with a collapsing car industry, full of ugly and hopeless people with nothing better to do than try to sell you coke or put dog shit through your letterbox after you beat them up with a baseball bat for threatening to kill your dog.
Man, fuck Coventry.

Every city has it's bad side. The Coventry I know is, thankfully, not the generalised one you recall.


Sorry, it certainly didn't come across that way. Maybe next time you might consider ticking the "sarcasm" box.

I was being fatuous.

>> ^A10anis:

>> ^Gallowflak:
Awesome! Except I wouldn't really call Coventry a "town". When I was growing up there it was a perpetually miserable, industrial city, with a collapsing car industry, full of ugly and hopeless people with nothing better to do than try to sell you coke or put dog shit through your letterbox after you beat them up with a baseball bat for threatening to kill your dog.
Man, fuck Coventry.

Every city has it's bad side. The Coventry I know is, thankfully, not the generalised one you recall.