>> ^Skeeve:

Further, the Least Harm Principle suggests that living a vegan lifestyle actually kills more animals than if we subsisted strictly on ruminant animals. So I think I'll stick with beef


Skeeve, I just read a quick summary of LHP and it has some pretty obvious holes in it:

- It counts exposing rodents to predators (when crops are harvested) as "killing" them. Obviously, predators would be eating rodents anyway. A loss to mice is a gain to buzzards.

- It bases deaths of wild animals caused by agriculture on decline in numbers compared to before the area is farmed. This is pretty flawed, since animal numbers would plummet when the land was claimed but level out afterwards. Some of the animals would move nearby and some would cut down on reproduction rather than dying in some great massacre.

- It goes by pure numbers, counting a fieldmouse the same as a cow. Now I don't want to see mice getting squished, but an animal with a pinhead brain does not have the same capacity to suffer as a large grazing animal like a cow or a pig. Otherwise you might as well count aphids in the death toll. (I appreciate that this was countering a hard-line vegan argument, so I suppose the equal treatment is valid in that particular context).

- It lists pesticides as a cause of death, but seemingly ignores the possibilities of organic farming. When was the last time you met a vegan that was keen on pesticides?


Sorry, that was really preachy. I'm kind of riled up because I'm lacto-ovo vegetarian and therefore indirectly responsible for those chicks getting minced. Not a nice feeling.

P.s. Props to Throbbin. I have a great deal of respect for people who have killed for their meat. If everyone had to slaughter an animal before they could buy KFC there might only be a small increase in vegetarianism, but at least there would be a large decrease in hypocrisy.

>> ^Nykwil:
Who knew that ladybugs were such thieves, the cute shell was a disguise the whole time!


Yeah, that is why I had to keep Ladybug (a former VS user) away from my aphids!

>> ^Mashiki:
I can almost bet that there's some type of aphid issue in the area which is why they're swarming. About 5 or 6 years ago, I had something similar happen on my property up in Ontario, earlier in the year I had problems with aphids on everything. About 3 weeks later everything was swarming with ladybugs.


Ladybugs do swarm during winter like other insects.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladybugs

The only reasons I can think of for such a swarm would either be a ladybug orgy, or that they've found a concentration of aphids.

I can almost bet that there's some type of aphid issue in the area which is why they're swarming. About 5 or 6 years ago, I had something similar happen on my property up in Ontario, earlier in the year I had problems with aphids on everything. About 3 weeks later everything was swarming with ladybugs.

Ant-orgy on an aphid?

"We're the only species on the planet that consumes..." should be changed to include "regularly". There are numerous cases of different species nursing off of other lactating animals, though I'm not sure if this happens without human intervention. Also, there are ants who tend and protect aphids so that they can harvest their secretions. Mmmmm.... secretions.

My aphids!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Where are the security protection (ants)?

kronosposeidon: Rats. Even if we did have interspecies relationship, she can't have my aphids!

Farhad2000: Awww. :~( Tell her we miss her. :~( My aphids are safe!

This doc was so fascinating, I had to translate the interesting bits (which is about 90% of it):

Ants transnmit secret mesasges, and follow invisible paths. Their code is just now beginning to be cracked. Ants are not ordinary creatures. They can support 100 X their mass. Each ant individually has some extrordinary ability, so when they unite, they become a true superpower.

<Title: The Secret Organization of Ants>

We are in central Europe. These wood ants are in search of food. Their actions look random, each ant doing something different, but in reality, they are all working together, each doing its own specific job. In a single year, One colony can consume more than 10,000,000 insects.

Despite being so small, ants are one of the most formidable predators on the planet. They eat more meat than lions, tigres and bears combined.

When attacked by a predator, or subjected to a scientific experiment, wood ants all react in the same way. To defend their nest, the workers shoot formic acid. The life of a single ant is worth little. The sole goal is the survival of the colony.

A shot of acid in the nose or eyes is enough to make the bear turn away. The hive is now exposed, and about to face an enemy far more powerful than the bear. The bees don’t stand a chance.

The adults, having expended so much effort, seek out a much more energy-giving staple, honeydew – a sugar- and vitamin-rich stubstance secreted by aphids. In exchange for the production of honeydew, the aphids receive the ants’ protection. In a single year, a colony of wood ants may consume 100kg of honeydew.

In Indonesia, this relationship has been taken even a step further. These Indonesian ants still protect and drink from the aphids, but here they carry the aphids themselves from plant to plant, and even direct the aphids to the best, sweetest parts of the flower. They act as shepherds, tending to their flocks. These Indonesian ants are the only creatures on Earth to own domestic animals, besides humans.

When they detect a coming storm, they remove their livestock to the shelter of large leaves. After the storm, work resumes. The largest aphids, the mothers, receive preferencial treatment. They travel on the heads of the ants. The smallest make the jouney in the mandibles of their guardians.

Other speceis have developped far less pacificstic relationships. These are the carnivorous plants from the island of borneo. Some of their leaves form urns with ultra-splippery rims. Each pouch containds deadly liquid. This liquid digests insects that fall into the trap. All the insects climb up, attracted by the smell of its nectar. This giant carpenter ant isn’t the only ant about. This miniscule campanotus can walk the very dangerous rim without falling in. Once the giant falls in, it has no means for escape, and the tiny campanotus is put to the task. Unique among ants, it can swim underwater. It can also survive the liquid that is slowly digesting the carpenter ant. They eat their host’s victims, and in exchange, ensure their host’s protection from herbivores.

The tiny ants’ secret is demonstrated by their ability to walk the rim of the plant and get out of the water. Back in the laboratory, these ants are put in a centrifuge, and subjected to a spinning force 100X that of gravity, the ants still cling to the smooth surface. This secret lies in the miscroscopic film of liquid at the end of their legs. This skill is essential for building the nests.

Ant descended from wasps, and first appeard more than 100,000,000 years ago. Some species have retained primitive characteristics. These Australian ants still have the sting of their ancestors. Different from other species, the workers are nearly as big as the queen, and they lay their own eggs, though, non-fertile ones, which serve to nourish the larvae. Only the queen gives life to the next generation. Among other species, the organization of these ants is heirarchical. When a queen dies, several workers become fertile, and seek to replace her by eliminating their rivals. What follows is a ritualistic attack, where the ants attempt to wear out their opponents by striking them with their antennae, and pinching them with their beaks.

These conflicts are an exception among ants. Ants generally strive for the good of the colony. There are thousands of species of ants, and their prosperity rests not in the strength or abilities of the individuals, but in the organization of their society.

There is an immense diversity in this insect group, but all species of ants share a common trait: they all function as societies. No species of ant known lives apart from the others. The evolutionary transition from solitary to social has only affected 3-5% of animals, including humans, but this minority enjoys domination in almost all land habitats.

One of the most impressive examples can be seen in the pampas of Argentina. The ants are so organized in their gathering of food, that they represent a serious menace to the herds of something <cattle>?. Something else about the roof of their somethings. And I’m going to bed now.

Aphids, Choggie. Aphids. ;-)

"I'm not claiming that the tree is gonna heal you, but if you have faith, and you use the little drops of water that are coming down, and you use it with a faith in you, it will heal you."

That's not a claim?

I remember this years ago.

Choggie: How about the ladybug who tried to steal an aphid? HA HA! Take that, LadyBug (where-ever she is)!

Oh and I am surprised no one mentioned http://www.videosift.com/video/fungi-parasite-takes-over-the-minds-of-ants ... Well, maybe LadyBug. Where is she? Oh well, peace and quiet on my aphid farms.

Yep, but in a violent way.


In reply to your comment:
“Attack of the fireflies...you mean like this? (poor little deer!)

In reply to your comment:
“It could be worse, Firefly. Attack of the ants? Attack of the ladybugs (get off my aphids!!). Or attack of fireflies? ””