Religious nutjob is out of his fucking mind.

My great-grandpa was an atheist. He was a WWII and Korean War veteran and farmer. He was out tending to his cattle at the young age of 102. He died just shy of his 106th birthday. He smoked, drank whiskey and wine, and ate like shit. He once told me that only fools believe that praying can solve anything real.

He would have definitely kicked this religious wackjob in the teeth.

>> ^Yogi:

Chomsky was right...Bush jailed people without trials indefinitely. Obama skips that step and goes straight to murder. It isn't legal, it isn't moral, Obama is worse than Bush and the American Empire is still kicking. We need to put it down here at home if we're going to have a chance at a civilized life.


I'll take a wild guess that everything Cenk is talking about most certainly did happen in Afghanistan and Iraq first during our dear leader "Junior Bush", let alone "during the Obama administration". I won't bother to say any more than that as any president that must inevitable go to war with another nation has failed his people (to some extent, some leaders are given no choice and some are caught off guard--but many use it like it's a fraternal right of the presidency--make war and no one complains) and we WILL be committing murder on the large scale, that will always be a partial description and definition of war; except for a few extraneous and special circumstances were we defend ourselves, but in the end we turn into the monster we tried not to be: WWI, WWII, Vietnam, Korea, Bosnia, Iraq (twice), Afghanistan, South VS. North USA, even the Cold War and are malicious proxy wars...

Trust me this has been around a long time, might as well bring up the every presidents "expenditure" or whatever they ended up calling it in those days and ages. War really is one side murdering the other for not a single good reason between the two, but their own bigotry created by...

...Organizations (like Al Qaeda) are capable of strikes that can affect a city block (a large suicide bomb) typically and in a grand while one that effects perhaps 20 blocks (the World Trade Center, which was felt "afterwards much farther away than 20 blocks, it circled the globe)... But, overall they have an effect on a much smaller section of people. It's hard to decide what to give up sometimes as we see others suffering, but we do wish to help them. At some point though an organization is a small group that becomes a country; like our Republicans and Democrats, two flavors of a one flavor system (unless you like pure batshiat crazy, we have that one too).

Imagine if we could increase the profit from the military industrial complex without ever having to end the war because of too many people dying.

In WWII we had to kill other first world nations, and it disrupted the economy in unsustainable ways... then we figured out we could just kill people in far away third world places, but now the bleeding heart liberal media keep making people feel guilty.

Creating corporate products with the sole purpose of finding and blowing up corporate products - justifying making more corporate products...

Drone v. Drone war : It's the perfect model!!

Pluto was discovered in 1930... then the Dust Bowl, the Great Depression, and WWII happened... makes you wonder doesn't it!

>> ^MayaBaba:

Good added facts there RFlagg.
You know since Pluto was declassified as a planet the worlds gone to hell in a hand basket - makes you wonder doesn't it!

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First off, Romney does not equal Obama. This kind of thinking is truly what frightens me, and it's not because of the reasons you probably think.

Some 20 years ago, the overwhelming majority of the population were ignorant of politics and apathetic. Political games were played, cheap shots were utilized, but in the end, in the big scheme of things, on the truly big issues, both sides would compromise and do the right thing. Clinton and the GOP Congress balancing the budget, Bush Sr. raising taxes, etc. etc. Stuff got done. And the majority of people were wholly ignorant on things like federal budgets, that kind of thing. There was also some kind of understanding on basic principles where regardless of your ideology, you couldn't do catastrophic things just because it suited your ideology.

Now, that's gone. Extremists in both parties are labelled fascists or communists, or whatever, but now moderates are being labelled as either part of the same extremist groups, or they're called sell-outs, part of a completely corrupt system, and perpetrators of that system, not as agents trying to work within a system that was built long before they got there, who could change the system while they work within it. When they do the right thing that violates ideology, it's not because it was the bipartisan right thing to do; it's because they're extensions of the corrupt system. The bailouts are an absolutely perfect example. I hate to break it to people here, and I know most won't agree with me, but the bailouts were the right thing to do, even if you're against too big to fail, etc. The banking system was already in place when the economy collapsed. It's like being in a boat as its sinking. You can critique the design of the boat all you want, but the boat sinking kills you all. It's ridiculous to talk about actions that will blow up the boat. Plug the holes, do what you need to do to get the boat to land. THEN figure out how to fix the design, or build a new boat. But what happened? The bipartisan policy by both a Democrat and Republican president was tarred and feathered as government being in the pocket of big business. Those same people don't seem to realize the boat didn't sink. We didn't face another depression. Be critical the banking system wasn't significantly reformed after that was done, I have no issues with that.

To the person who said Obama's policies haven't worked in three years? Again, are we in a depression? No. Those policies worked. And how can you expect a macro-economic shift within a year or two of his other policies? Go back and look at economic history. Things don't change on a dime just from macro-economic policies instituted by the government. It takes several years before the effect can be measured. Again, sheer ignorance. The difference today is the ignorant are far more willing to participate in the political debate even though they don't have a clue what they're talking about. This is a problem on both sides.

Both sides are stoking the ignorant to get involved in the public debates, and not encouraging a very very basic understanding of crucial facts about history. Like... WWII was a Keynesian economic exercise effectively, which in the end was a gigantic gov't deficit that did end the Great Depression. This is a very straight forward basic economical historical fact. But there's 30% of the population that will not believe it because it blows apart what they politically favor today. It's ridiculous.

I disagree with Romney, and I probably won't vote for him. But he's not a fascist. There's a significant difference between him and Santorum. And there's a significant difference between him and Obama. Is there a choice as clearly different as say Ron Paul vs. Ralph Nader? No. Is that a bad thing? Not in my book.

My fear is in our political ecosystem, the moderates, the good ones who truly aren't compromising for the wrong reasons, but do it to get things done, and have a willingness to ignore ideology for practical solutions that help the country are getting drowned out, and characterized as corrupt when they're not. I disagree with Romney, but he's not corrupt. I disagree with Obama, but he's not corrupt. We don't need a revolution to fix our current political system, but an increasing number of people think we do. And the last decade we're seeing a rise in the extremists on both sides enough to drown out the political moderates we desperately need. This just can't continue indefinitely.

>> ^deathcow:

>> ^lantern53:
Obama's policies have not worked for the past 3 years. If you believe some improvement is coming, you have far more faith than the average Catholic bishop.

obama = romney = anyone else they put forward

>> ^NetRunner:
It's this kind of behavior from the right that really has me worried. It's one thing for people to be skeptical about information from a particular source, but what we're seeing from the right today is a blanket rejection of all information that comes from outside their own partisan network of sources.
>> ^heropsycho:
When I showed him facts, such as the butt ton large deficit during WWII and the surplus under Clinton, showing numerous non-partisan statistics, he simply said that's not true.



Sounds similar to a few religious people who won't acknowledge scientific facts because those facts contradict their beliefs.

It's this kind of behavior from the right that really has me worried. It's one thing for people to be skeptical about information from a particular source, but what we're seeing from the right today is a blanket rejection of all information that comes from outside their own partisan network of sources.
>> ^heropsycho:

When I showed him facts, such as the butt ton large deficit during WWII and the surplus under Clinton, showing numerous non-partisan statistics, he simply said that's not true.

Not really relevant to this, but I got into a political discussion the other day unintentionally with a Tea Party supporter. I learned some very interesting things. For example, I learned that...

* Keynesian Economics is a failed economy theory from over 100 years ago.

* The US did not run a significant deficit during WWII.

* Keynesian Economics is now being tried again for the first time under Obama since the Depression.

* The last surplus was not under Clinton. I forgot when he claimed it was.

When I showed him facts, such as the butt ton large deficit during WWII and the surplus under Clinton, showing numerous non-partisan statistics, he simply said that's not true.

From you example of going into debt for war sake is a nice comparison. In today's terms we spent 1 trillion on the Bush war and and a fair amount on Obama continuation of the wars. If we were only in 1 - 2 trillion of debt that's one thing but we are hitting 16 Trillion dollars of debt. That is a whole different kind of debt.

Like I said earlier our government has currently cause each of us to incur a bill of 50K per man woman and child or 137K per taxpayer. Who of us can pay that debt back? Not Me and surly not you.


You basically don't see this as a problem so I ask you when does it become a problem?
>> ^heropsycho:

The government borrowed massive amounts of money to pay for pretty much every war it's been in. By your logic, we shouldn't have fought the Axis Powers in WWII because that would have put the bill on the backs of others to pay.
Just stop, your arguments fail basic historical examples that prove it's overly simplistic and moronic. By your logic, the government should never borrow money. The US debt is a problem, but to never borrow money is utterly ridiculous.
>> ^bobknight33:
Yes I currently paying a loan on a house.
The difference is that I am not putting that bill on the backs of others to pay.
Our government has currently cause each of us to incur a bill of 50K per man woman and child or 137K per taxpayer. Who of us can pay that debt back? Not Me and surly not you.

>> ^Edgeman2112:
>> ^bobknight33:
Only Ron Paul want to move back to the Gold standard.
The debt ceiling is real. He is wrong. If you borrow more than you take in than you are screwed. We borrow 43 cents of every dollar.

So you don't have a house?