[["atheists kinda sorta make a claim of some sort. What's your point."]]

To me it's kind of a minor point but for this it comes down to the burden of proof, which is something atheists are trying to avoid at all costs.

[["And if you think that the atheist experience simply trawls the bottom of Christian intellectualism then who would you have them debate, Ray comfort? Matt Slick? Perhaps you?"]]

How about Ravi Zacharias? John Lennox? Matt Dillahunty has actually formally debated a few Christians and he didn't do very well.

[["More than anything, the most disgusting trait of Christianity is that it equates child rapists and children as equally sinful in the eyes of God. There are certainly various arguments saying that different consequences will be felt here on earth, or perhaps that there is an arbitrary age of innocence, etc... But almost universally, Christians agree that the following scenario is at least possible:"]]

What the scripture says is that we've all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Further, it says that the wages of our sin is death. Therefore, it is saying that we all have a sin problem, and that God doesn't show any partiality between sinners. The murderer and the liar are both headed for hell, although there is an indication in the scripture that there are degrees of punishment in hell. I also believe in the age of accountability.

Is it possible that the murderer may go to heaven while the murder victim goes to hell? It certainly is. What you're not realizing is, God loved both equally, and had His hand out to both equally. He doesn't show partiality in punishment, and He doesn't show partiality in salvation. He did everything possible to save the one that perished without violating His free will, and the man turned him down. That isn't because God is wicked, or unjust, but because the one that perished refused to stop doing evil and accept Gods pardon. Would you release a murderer out of death row who refused to stop murdering? Why should God forgo justice with unrepentant sinners?

What you're saying is, the murderer deserved to go to hell and the victim didn't. Yet, what the scripture says is that both equally deserved to go to hell, since they are both sinners. Every single person alive on the planet right now is not receiving the punishment they deserve; every day they are receiving what they don't deserve, which is breath, and life, and a chance to begin forgiven. No one has to go hell; people get there by pushing past the love, grace and mercy of their Creator.

That is the timeline secular scientists have come up with, but the bible says humans have only been around for 6 thousands years, not one hundred thousand. And in that timeframe, God has been very active in His creation..the first coming of Christ was the culmination of 4000 years worth of work that He did in the world, mostly through the jewish people. The past 2000 years have been in the establishing of the Kingdom of God through Jesus Christ, a work that has been active and ongoing and remains so.

>> ^truth-is-the-nemesis:
As Christopher Hitchens said " human's have been around for 100,000 years and in that time they've killed, reproduced and acted with impunity without any input from god, it was only in the last 2,000 that he eventually started to care about his creation and then it was only a fleeting visit".
the mathematics of that alone is vastly implausible.

No, it's that you presume God is irrelevent. That's the natural conclusion from your fishtank example, isn't it? You see a world without God, and I see a world with God. Clearly, only one of us is correct. That is why absolutes are important. Someone is right, and someone is wrong. If you don't believe in absolutes, I would ask you, do you absolutely believe that?

>> ^vaire2ube:
God is Irrelevant, is the point. We can't debate the subject by virtue of its definition, so if you have a differing opinion just deal with it.
Reality is still real. We can interact without absolute knowledge.
Read the article from Hawking and Leonard Mlodinow September 27, 2010
"A few years ago the city council of Monza, Italy, barred pet owners from keeping goldfish in curved fishbowls. The sponsors of the measure explained that it is cruel to keep a fish in a bowl because the curved sides give the fish a distorted view of reality. Aside from the measure’s significance to the poor goldfish, the story raises an interesting philosophical question: How do we know that the reality we perceive is true? The goldfish is seeing a version of reality that is different from ours, but can we be sure it is any less real? For all we know, we, too, may spend our entire lives staring out at the world through a distorting lens."

As a transcendental concept god can neither be proven or not. Read my favorite evangelical writer, Ravi Zacharias.

That said, I believe that christianity has much more in common with say... festival of Dionysus than Judaism. Jews don't worship jesus, they ask God for another Moses.

So alien intelligence, if we ever meet it, I like to think they'd be familiar with Christianity even before we tell them of Jesus. Just like I expect we could exchange math theorems and maybe music, I think we could exchange moral thought and religion.

In fact, Star Trek had the same idea if you watch "Bread and circuses"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_Circuses_(Star_Trek:_The_Original_Series)
(you have to watch the last two minutes to see it, and the story is left open as nothing is resolved)


Oh, almost forgot about my favorite book on cannibalism: stranger in a strange land by Heinlein.

i can certainly understand why you aren't religious, with all the various religions trying to keep people from doing stuff and putting rules on other people.

its kind of like politics, you have to search for days just for a person who isn't playing the game exclusively for himself.

still i can recommend christian books by ravi zacharias or charles r. swindoll.
really what we all need is the ability to discern.... to use an auto analogy... discern a pothole in the road, from a personal problem. This is the type of spirituality that everyone needs. the challenges in your life... how to deal effectively with them or even not to try.

The bible aint gonna help with this really . Psychology does, but with the low hanging fruits. Really you get sprituality from dealing with spiritual people. Or god, if you can find him.

Where did they get that Rev. Peter Gomes?? Bring in Dr. Tim Keller or Ravi Zacharias. Debate needs apologetics, not apologies.

What's interesting is that even among Christian intellectuals (yes there are a few like Ravi Zacharias) you never hear a discussion of Numbers 31 and similar passages which blatantly and explicitly commands the ritual murder of young children. When pressed and pressed _hard_ on this issue, the final fallback is invariably "well we just don't know".

How strange that the "I AM", the First Cause of all reality, cannot stand up to close scrutiny by mere man.