@Jinx -- Whether in "meatspace" or on the internet, I think the difference is engaging with others vs being in the echo chamber.

A lot of "engaging" with others is going to be negative. Picket line meets picket line has about as much chance of being productive as reading the comments on a controversial YouTube video.

But even if the majority of the "engagement" is that, there are going to be some patient people who connect in a positive enough way to actually enlighten and persuade. Like the former-WBC lady's new husband.

And while that positive engagement seems to have the best shot at redeeming those that can be redeemed, it also might be the best way to show the true colors of those beyond redemption. The skinhead leader guy got maced by counter-protesters twice. That gives him a semi-legitimate provocation to respond in kind or with escalating violence (bloody knuckles, broken bones, whatever). But if he isn't provided with any such provocation and still resorts to violence, people can truly see his "idealogy" for what it is.

Hence Rosa Parks responding to the bus driver in Montgomery:
Driver - "If you don't stand up, I'm going to have to call the police and have you arrested."
Parks - "You may do that."


If I was there in Charlottesville in the heat of the moment, face to face with that kind of hate and bigotry, I'd have been one of the people chanting "fuck off nazis". I'd have cheered when somebody on "my side" maced chief-skinhead in the face, if I hadn't done it myself. ...But I recognize that we could sure use more people that react like Rosa Parks did, and less like I would have.

Congrats, AC - been a long time coming! Rae and I joined the sift at about the same time and not only has she been a great sifter but also a great friend. Even had the pleasure to meet her a few years back and she was just as witty and charming in meatspace as she is here.

I had no idea you were even a magician. Why are there no videos of you on the Sift playing? What is your instrument?

Thanks for updating us with your whereabouts. It's the rare sifter who doesn't forget us when they move onto ventures in meatspace.

You'll kick ass at jazz, I'm certain.

Always wonderful seeing sifter meatbags hanging out in atmosphere and it looks like a rip-roaring good time. Thanks for all the photos! Feels like I was there.

I just got word from siftbot that your much sought after Meatspace badges have been doled out. Enjoy!

@lucky760, I think some meatspace badges are in order here!

Wrongheaded imo. This is GWB style 'with us or against us' rhetoric. Would you accept this argument if black people were the zombies? Or women? Or liberals? You don't even have to answer, because I know you'd say no. We have to share this world with people of faith. Some are cool. Some are assholes. I think judging them on the cool/asshole scale is a lot more productive than judging them on the faith/non-faith scale. Lumping them all together is assholish. I also find the guy on the left to be a ridiculous strawman. I don't know any atheists who think that way.

Beyond that, in horror culture, zombies are to be killed on site without question or remorse. I'm uncomfortable with the violent implications, fictional or no.

I know 4 extremely cool Christians in meatspace - thoughtful, loving, selfless, liberal Christians who are always looking out for others, rarely judgmental and never preachy. These are people I respect and admire at the highest level. They aren't Pat Robertson or Kirk Cameron or the stupid banana guy (can't remember his name). They aren't zombies. They are people that I love.

I went through a combative 'spite' period in regards to religion, and though I'm not ashamed of that period of my life, I am glad to be done with it.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

Really great. Right behind you in MeatSpace Lucky.

That looks like it was a wonderful time. Thanks for all the details and enjoyable photos/video. The virtual experience is just short of being there, I'm sure.

It seems three new Level 1 Meatspace badges have been earned and @dag's up to a whopping Level 3.

Have you earned a Meatspace badge yet? Get working on it!

Looks like this meeting is about to get underway. Darn, I was going to be there, but I forgot about the time difference and now I won't get there in time.

Have fun in meatspace you pillars of Sift!

The short, best answer to many of the issues in VideoSift is: we need a new Sift Operating System (or SOS for short).

The current system on which VideoSift exists is extremely huge and complex and there are just so many complications with the way many things were added on that make some things very difficult (or not worth the effort) to fix or improve upon.

When meatspace issues permit, we'll build a new, much better system from scratch and all our current issues will be gone (and replaced with different ones).

Oooooo Meatspace Bag, erm Badge. But you might want to take a look, it's showing up twice for everyone. Including you.

Animals, when I first read this reply, I did not know who wrote it. When I read your name, I smiled. Thank you Animals, not just for the apology, but for the insight of how a good man's mind can work when not blinded by the Blizzard-Of-Hate (Or, less that Blizzard, blinded by the rhetoric of his own mind.) For the record, I used to be an unequalled troll. I was God back then, and no one was allowed to have 'silly' ideas outside what 'should be,' but I did have one flaw. I looked to myself and asked questions. And I did not like my own answers.

As to you being immutable--it is true that I assumed you would not readily change

To the well-answered points you made;

Even if this video is a parody, some religious evangy would gobble this response up and spew it back out. But they would probably mean "inspired the bible", and yet still the sift would pound away for a simple mistake of words-versus-meaning. On a side note, I have heard far worse than this video's content from godly men--and it was stated in seriousness. I still cringe...

You bring up the multiple levels of feelings on this issue... To that I say and ask--it is factually true what you say, but when so many tiers/levels are calculated, doesn't the entire tier system become useless? (He is middle class making 40,000$. He is 'above middle class, making 40,005$, and so forth and so on.)

I tier this argument into three simple groups, Those that Believe, Those that Do Not, and Those who Couldn't Care Less. I fall into the Care Less. I know that list is subjective, and probably wrong of me, but I do it simply for simplicity.

Onto control--every nation, country, culture, etc. of humanity has created some form of control. Whether norms, government, religion, taboos, implied demands--or something societal, like commercialism--there has not been a gathering of man that has not exerted control. I am not saying control is evil, mind you--just necessary. In fact, when man is left untouched by any which way by another man (I.e. abandoned from birth, and never in human contact,) he becomes feral, and nothing smarter than an animal.

The control points I bring up are cheap for one reason--it just is easy to say and give examples. Kind of like 'humans need food.' So it is simple of me to say, and offers little but I feel it needs said.

Again, thank you fro proving me wrong.

>> ^AnimalsForCrackers:

Okay, give dummy lady a break. She meant to say "Who inspired the bible" but put foot in mouth.

DFT confirmed that this was a parody so I think she meant to say what she did. But even if she were being earnest I don't know if I would go that far. Unless she then made a correction after the fact, say in a new video or in the video description, why would you infer something from her words if she didn't outright say what you were inferring? If we played along, would she have had a coherent point if we replaced "write" with "inspired"? Would her conclusion have made more or less sense, in context of the "gotcha!" moment she was going for? Less, imo.

But one side is not crap. There are two sides that are crap here. Those who believe in god and those who think lowly of those people

I think there are MANY "sides" when it comes to the number of levels/tiers of belief (or acknowledgment of certain assumptions) in the religious or the scientific and still MANY more varying degrees of self-righteousness and smug superiority within each of those.
What the hell am I saying, essentially? I'm saying, why the false dichotomy? Not everyone is either A or B. Life isn't binary.

Humanity created religion because it needed to be controlled.

There are many possible reasons for why religion is so ubiqitous, like our innate tendency to assign agency to things from a very young age, for one brief example. Your explanation sounds like a nominal fallacy, i.e. naming-explaining fallacy. Humans need to be controlled. How do we know humans need to be controlled? Because they created religion (which is a social tool for control). The only evidence provided for why we need to be controlled is the fact that religion can be used as a tool for control and that we created it. Does this really address the "why we need it" part? It's a totally post-hoc explanation which itself is not an explanation. I hope I made I sense there.

In fact, to add a point. Faith in god may be misplaced---but faith is still science based. It keeps people alive who should be dead, it is there from birth to death, it is a human condition.

Yes, we can scientifically measure the mental, consequential, and physiological effects religion(s) has on our bodies and brains in space and time. Is that the same as saying that the underlying explanation providing the foundation for the belief (a belief which has REAL, measurable effects in people's lives) is scientifically sound?
As an aside, Lawdeedaw, I just want to sincerely apologize for the overly aggressive tone and sometimes distracting ratio of "snark-to-common courtesy" I've taken with you in our past "encounters". I've been beginning to reevaluate my tact when bringing up objections with those I disagree with in the past weeks. I readily admit I have anger issues and am trying to truly address them rather than let them define my presence here on the Sift and in meatspace. I have a hard time playing nice with people I feel misrepresent me or others I may agree with. Many things have brought me to this realization, mostly meatspace issues. I am sorry (this also goes to anyone else I may have inadvertently or quite directly and thoughtlessly insulted in the past), there I said it!
See? How's that for a "smug, superior atheist" (I know you have thought this of me on occasion) being immutable in his viewpoint/outlook? <IMG class=smiley src="http://cdn.videosift.com/cdm/emoticon/tonguewink.gif">

Okay, give dummy lady a break. She meant to say "Who inspired the bible" but put foot in mouth.

DFT confirmed that this was a parody so I think she meant to say what she did. But even if she were being earnest I don't know if I would go that far. Unless she then made a correction after the fact, say in a new video or in the video description, why would you infer something from her words if she didn't outright say what you were inferring? If we played along, would she have had a coherent point if we replaced "write" with "inspired"? Would her conclusion have made more or less sense, in context of the "gotcha!" moment she was going for? Less, imo.

But one side is not crap. There are two sides that are crap here. Those who believe in god and those who think lowly of those people

I think there are MANY "sides" when it comes to the number of levels/tiers of belief (or acknowledgment of certain assumptions) in the religious or the scientific and still MANY more varying degrees of self-righteousness and smug superiority within each of those.

What the hell am I saying, essentially? I'm saying, why the false dichotomy? Not everyone is either A or B. Life isn't binary.

Humanity created religion because it needed to be controlled.

There are many possible reasons for why religion is so ubiqitous, like our innate tendency to assign agency to things from a very young age, for one brief example. Your explanation sounds like a nominal fallacy, i.e. naming-explaining fallacy. Humans need to be controlled. How do we know humans need to be controlled? Because they created religion (which is a social tool for control). The only evidence provided for why we need to be controlled is the fact that religion can be used as a tool for control and that we created it. Does this really address the "why we need it" part? It's a totally post-hoc explanation which itself is not an explanation. I hope I made I sense there.

In fact, to add a point. Faith in god may be misplaced---but faith is still science based. It keeps people alive who should be dead, it is there from birth to death, it is a human condition.

Yes, we can scientifically measure the mental, consequential, and physiological effects religion(s) has on our bodies and brains in space and time. Is that the same as saying that the underlying explanation providing the foundation for the belief (a belief which has REAL, measurable effects in people's lives) is scientifically sound?

As an aside, Lawdeedaw, I just want to sincerely apologize for the overly aggressive tone and sometimes distracting ratio of "snark-to-common courtesy" I've taken with you in our past "encounters". I've been beginning to reevaluate my tact when bringing up objections with those I disagree with in the past weeks. I readily admit I have anger issues and am trying to truly address them rather than let them define my presence here on the Sift and in meatspace. I have a hard time playing nice with people I feel misrepresent me or others I may agree with. Many things have brought me to this realization, mostly meatspace issues. I am sorry (this also goes to anyone else I may have inadvertently or quite directly and thoughtlessly insulted in the past), there I said it!

See? How's that for a "smug, superior atheist" (I know you have thought this of me on occasion) being immutable in his viewpoint/outlook?

Huge congrats to you, my friend! Your videos and wit are of the highest quality, and you're a lot of fun to be around. I had the pleasure of meeting Rae this summer and let me assure you, she's just as cool and charming in meatspace as she is in digital format.

Most deserved, and welcome to the Royal league! We have weekly meals of endangered animals. This week it's albino bengal tiger stew. See you there!

I actually clapped at the end, with my meatspace hands.