A: Of course you've never met anyone who thought Tae Kwon Do was made for cage fighting. I was being facetious:

You're full of horse puckey, putting it lightly. If you were being facetious, you wouldn't be getting your panties in a knot.

The reason that I said it was that scholars and practitioners generally agree that grappling with limited striking is the best form of one-on-one, unarmed combat, which people love to bring up when talking about Tae Kwon Do. And, which I tend to agree with.

What scholars and practitioners generally agree with that? Bullcrap. I have never heard anybody but non-fighters say that, nor is there a general consensus that there is any single perfect mixture of striking and grappling in MMA. Hell, most of the wins in the UFC title bouts recently have been won through striking: Gonzaga's, Serra's, GSP's, Rampage, etc.

In fact, the general consensus among MMA fighters is that there is no single best combination of striking and grappling. The mixture of grappling and striking is always dependent on the background of the fighter and calibrated to his particular technical and physical abilities. And I've never heard a good fighter with "limited striking" skills, that is unacceptable for any good fighter. A good fighter, even one who's a submission specialist, will have proficient striking skills at the very least, or he's not a good fighter.

But not all fighting takes place one-on-one, or on even, equally familiar ground. (i.e.: a cage fight) The martial arts merely train you in different ways to be prepared for given situations.

I agree that not all fighting takes place one-on-one or on even ground. I do, however, hold that MMA-style training is the single most effective form of training for any kind of unarmed combat, period. I also do not believe that any unarmed martial art will adequately enable you to actually fight multiple opponents with a greater chance of winning than losing.

B. Forms are not the only thing you need to learn to fight. I agree, but they do help impart technique and physical fitness. Otherwise, why do boxers shadowbox? Why do pilots fly training missions? Why do hunters practice shooting targets? Martial artists punch bags, break boards, spar and use all sorts of different ways to train. No combat art relies only on forms, and even modern MMA fighters don't train ONLY in the ring.

Forms are not good at imparting technique, they're a waste of time if you're trying to learn to fight. Sorry. Boxers shadowbox because it is a dynamic exercise, in which there is no set order of technique. That's why they move the same way that they do during a fight, with no pre-conceived list of things to do. Shadowboxing is not comparable to doing forms. Boxers are not just standing in horse stance or front stance and throwing chambered punches, then maybe sidestepping, because a pre-memorized complex set of motions like a traditional form will never be applicable in a fight, individual techniques must be learned in dead drilling, but they must be chained together during dynamic training. Pilots fly training missions, similiarly, because it is a dynamic exercise, that's why they don't just fly the same mission over and over again, they run many different scenarios with things changing every time.

Modern MMA fighters do not train ONLY in the ring. However, good MMA fighters NEVER try to train by:
- breaking boards
- doing forms

They DO train by:
- dead drilling: for re-enforcing a SINGLE new technique being learned, this is largely de-emphasized when a fighter is preparing for a fight
- shadowboxing: dynamic movement, takes up a small percentage of training time, mostly done for warmup
- doing padwork: dynamic movement against a moving target, and sometimes resisting opponent, takes up a medium amount of training time
- doing bagwork: dynamic movement against a moving target, takes up about a medium amount of time
- sparring: dynamic movement against a resisting opponent, takes up a large amount of time

Forms are a waste of time if someone's trying to learn how to fight.

C. Yeah, your not bursting any bubbles here. I know that you think you're smart but I've had the same thought about fighting multiple opponents, as have millions of other people. I never said that I could take on 8 opponents. What I said was that I visualized 8 opponents when practicing a form. It's a way of keeping focused. I don't believe I would have an advantage over anyone, alone or otherwise, before I fight them. To do that would just be asking for failure. I'll tell you this though: If I ever DO have to fight more than one person, I'm not going to say "Hey guys, wait here while I run home and get my 1911 and my baseball bat." I, unlike you, am hopefully going to confront the situation in a realistic manner.

Ok, so remind me again how all this visualization during forms is going to carry over to a fight? Confronting a situation in which you need to fight unarmed against multiple opponents in a realistic manner means acknowledging you're going to get your ass kicked if you try fighting back unarmed, and the only reasonable solutions are: stopping the fight, running, or using a force multiplier (i.e. weapon, friends, etc.). Unlike me. Uh-huh. Please tell me exactly how I'm being unrealistic about this. How exactly would YOU plan on confronting a situation with multiple opponents?

I hate to burst YOUR bubble but fighting in cages has been around for a lot longer than the late 80's. Not to mention, I never said anything about MMA in my first post. You pulled that one right out of your cock holster.

Oh really? Cage fighting's been around since before the late 80s? There's a reason why cagefighting is nearly synonymous with MMA. Hm. Ok, I'll give you the early 80s, maybe even late 70s if you push it. Oh, you meant before that? Please cite your proof. No, seriously. I'm waiting. Oh, and Bloodsport and Mad Max don't count as historical documents. Me and my cock holster will be waiting. I shoot from the hip. Or pelvis, if you want to be specific.

Wow Rembar brilliant fucking insight right there.
Let me make myself a little clearer:

A: Of course you've never met anyone who thought Tae Kwon Do was made for cage fighting. I was being facetious:

FACETIOUS, [fuh-see-shuhs]
-adjective
1. Not meant to be taken literaly.
2. Lacking serious intent.

The reason that I said it was that scholars and practitioners generally agree that grappling with limited striking is the best form of one-on-one, unarmed combat, which people love to bring up when talking about Tae Kwon Do. And, which I tend to agree with. But not all fighting takes place one-on-one, or on even, equally familiar ground. (i.e.: a cage fight) The martial arts merely train you in different ways to be prepared for given situations.

B. Forms are not the only thing you need to learn to fight. I agree, but they do help impart technique and physical fitness. Otherwise, why do boxers shadowbox? Why do pilots fly training missions? Why do hunters practice shooting targets? Martial artists punch bags, break boards, spar and use all sorts of different ways to train. No combat art relies only on forms, and even modern MMA fighters don't train ONLY in the ring.

C. Yeah, your not bursting any bubbles here. I know that you think you're smart but I've had the same thought about fighting multiple opponents, as have millions of other people. I never said that I could take on 8 opponents. What I said was that I visualized 8 opponents when practicing a form. It's a way of keeping focused. I don't believe I would have an advantage over anyone, alone or otherwise, before I fight them. To do that would just be asking for failure. I'll tell you this though: If I ever DO have to fight more than one person, I'm not going to say "Hey guys, wait here while I run home and get my 1911 and my baseball bat." I, unlike you, am hopefully going to confront the situation in a realistic manner.

And one last thing.
I hate to burst YOUR bubble but fighting in cages has been around for a lot longer than the late 80's. Not to mention, I never said anything about MMA in my first post. You pulled that one right out of your cock holster.

Have a great day.

I have no respect for Seagal as a martial artist, considering the fact that he pooped himself as a result of getting choked out because he thought his chi power could prevent it. And I don't typically consider aikido to be a practical martial art either.

I understand what you're saying, TS. I understand that it's a demonstration, which is the reason for the compliance. I also know that the ukemi is taken in such motions as to prevent injury to uke from the lock. Still, that's not my main gripe.

I do believe in the possible effectiveness of many of aikido's techniques and concepts. I have learned a decent amount of aikido, sparred against a number of aikidoka, and discussed aikido theory 'til my ears bled, but my real issue is the manner in which aikido is trained. Without real resistance or hard sparring, how can one learn to apply such techniques effectively in a combat or self-defense situation?

If one were to argue that aikido is meant as a philosophy/religion/way of life, and that sparring is contrary to this meaning of aikido, then that's fine, but that means that that version of aikido will continue to be non-functional in a combat/self-defense sense. Otherwise, aikidoka need to spar and train against lots of resistance for aikido to begin to approach any sort of functional use in a true fighting sense.

One example of this is the kote mawashi. (In English this is the inward wrist-turn lock, and anatomically is a pronating lock.) Applied in a compliant setting, it is really nice, and results in a very painful lock that is nearly impossible to escape once a secure grip is established and the rotation is begun. In a sparring setting standing up, it is a bitch to get the proper hold and lock it in, due to its nature as a fine-motor movement (which is known to be difficult because of the loss of such small control due to the effects of adrenaline, as opposed to gross-motor movement, which is relatively amplified), and wrist control in that particular direction and manner almost never occurs when an opponent is punching or pushing with real intent. In addition, with somebody resisting full force, kote mawashi is countered by a number of simple and natural reactions, including sidestepping before the attacker can line up side by side with his opponent, clearing the attacker's grabbing hand with one's own free hand, stepping straight in for an over-under clinch to perform a leg reap a la judo o-soto-gari or ko-soto-gake, re-grabbing the attacker's grabbing hand and arm-dragging a la freestyle wrestling, punching the attacker in the face with the free hand, ripping one's arm free, or any combination of the above. Hell, you could probably use something straight from aikido like kote gaeshi to counter kote mawashi. I'm not saying mawashi will never work, I'm just saying, somebody attempting kote mawashi must be aware of these counters, and be ready to provide a counter-attack should that fail.

Of course, it's easy for somebody to look at what my breakdown of kote mawashi and say, "Oh, well, in that situation, if my opponent resisted my a with b, I would just counter his b with my c," and we can continue on down the road of hypothetical rock-paper-scissors 'til kingdom come. But my point is, I've countered a kote mawashi when somebody has tried to use it against me in a live setting. Hell, I've used mawashi as a gimmick submission hold when grappling on the ground. I'll often attack with it from guard, especially after going for a juji-gatame (straight armbar), when my opponent will counter by turning his elbow sideways so I can't lock in the hold, and I'll grab the wrist, lock in a secure grip, and begin switching my hips as if going for an omoplata to apply pressure. I've found that using this wristlock, as with most wristlocks, is easier on the ground because I have more control over my opponent with my legs wrapped around his body or trapping his arm at the elbow to isolate the limb, controlling his movement, than if we were standing or clinched up, and because I have more time to secure the hold on the wrist than when an opponent can step out or pull his arm out, and because I can use the full rotation of my body immediately to apply the lock. I know this particular setup and attack works (skip 'til the end, the sub flow begins around 30 seconds from the end), just like I know I can counter a standing attack of mawashi reasonably well, because I've pulled it off while fighting with a fully-resisting opponent. And of course aikido has many more counters and re-counters to mawashi than I know. But if one has not actually played this situation out against a fully resisting opponent, how does one know one can do it, and how can one have developed the proper muscle memory and/or reaction without having gone through the real, resistance-included motions? The techniques are all there in aikido, but I feel that many aikidoka are missing out on the point that learning the techniques and combinations isn't everything, they need to learn how to actually apply them.

I like Yoshinkan and Tomiki aikido and similiar substyles of "hard" aikido that practice sparring regularly and have even begun attempting to implement sparring in tournaments, even though I believe their attempts are somewhat misguided. I also respect aikidoka who do not spar but also acknowledge that they are not practicing for self-defense or practical application, but rather for the cultural and spiritual development - I don't understand it, but I respect it. I only take issue with aikidoka (as well any other martial artists) who claim to have effective self-defence and/or combat skills, yet have never pulled a single move off against anybody other than a person whose designation begins with the letter "u" and rhymes with "boo-kay". In those cases, I'll take my judo along with a heaping of resistance, thank ya kindly, and leave the magic pants for others.

I'm glad you agree. The problem in many areas of martial arts is the incorrect assumption that sports and cultural phenomenon can be described as "superior" or even applicable in the real application of harm. I am really passionate about realism and not getting into a mindset that any one system is the true way. Bruce Lee was a great martial artist because he rejected tradition, and blended styles, thus creating greatness through acceptance and knowledge, not resistance and physicality.

I have tried to be very open minded in my learning processes when aproaching martial arts, and I often get a bit testy when confronted with dogmatic Martial arts thinking, and in so doing I can be a tad surly. I apologise for any misunderstandings, but I cannot be less than blunt in my opinions. That said, I think civil discourse is beneficial in molding perceptions, which leads to understanding and acceptance of that which works. Ultimately the goal is to avoid actual confrontation, with the true goal being confidence in ones ability to act when required.

In reply to your comment:
“HAHAH! You are right about that big guys in carpet armor! They told me that i couldnt do the it because the use Japanese 15century ERA weaponry was against the rules. I was niave at the time to think that doing the SCA would further my Martial Arts Experience. So I spent most of my time watching the guys with the real armor, and swords do agility drills.

Real weapons eh? I saw some idiots out side my Last apartment practicing Ninjutsu, were one had a live weapon, and the other had a Iaito. That was a clear show of ego, and I wish that I had it on video, it would have been on for the darwin awards, because the the one with the real sword cut the other guy.

Look up MASS, or MCBS those are interesting styles of blade fighting akin to Baji Quan, and the stick figthing in the Philipines.”

I also dislike many of the things the Gracies do and say, and I like to think that the art has moved beyond their control and has become something that is owned by no single person or group.

And for the record, I think dojo-storming is stupid, but I do not believe all styles to be equal in terms of imparting fighting ability, which is where the ring or cage comes in. I think MMA is a perfect pressure-testing ground for martial arts as well as martial artists.

*sigh*.

While it is true that the Gracie family made submission attacks famous by representing Brazilian jiu-jitsu (BJJ) in mixed martial arts (MMA), everything you just posted is - and I almost never say this - completely ignorant of the sport and martial arts as a whole.

Submissions were not brought into "the sport" - and by this, I assume you mean MMA - by the Gracies. The Gracies, as I wrote in my BJJ sift, took the judo/jujitsu taught to them by Mitsuyo Maeda and developed the newaza groundwork into a new system, focused on establishing positional improvement and dominance before the application of submissions. It was this conceptual change from the general judo mindset of throw-and-fall-or-scramble-to-position, rather than the submissions themselves. Judo, for the most part, has all the submission BJJ does, it just generally doesn't train them as much or as well. So really, the submissions were brought into the sport by judo, which was brought into creation by Kano through adaptation of the teachings of jiu-jitsu. If you want to argue about fighters using the submissions, sure Royce Gracie made use of them famously in UFC 1, but the first UFC tournament was set up to ensure no other submission grappling styles, including judo, was entered to make a clearer differentiation of style versus style, among other reasons. When such fighter picking was stopped, submission fighters from many styles sprung up in MMA competition.

If you're not talking about modern MMA, then consider the fact that pankration from Greece in 648 BC was the first Western MMA competition, and chokeholds and joint locks were widely displayed and documented.

Consider that catch wrestling can be traced in nearly every culture, from Lancashire catch-as-catch-can wrestling to the US hook wrestling to the Indian pehlwani.

Or you might even be referencing the infamous gong sau of China, where kung fu masters would challenge each other for the rights to open schools in villages or cities, matching style versus style, starting from millenia ago and continuing to the present day. Of course, dubious as the documentation surrounding those matches were, and as stupid as kwoon-storming is, there have been accounts of Chin na masters defeating other strikers through armbars and rear naked chokes.

As for "ruining the sport", I can only assume you're talking about the present version of MMA, as represented largely by the UFC and Pride FC (which have recently been merged as one organization. The UFC and Pride, as you may know, evolved out of the Vale tudo competitions in Brazil and Japan, which when brought to the US were imitated and televised. Of course, you should also be aware of the fact that vale tudo tournaments were largely organized by Helio Gracie, the original creator of Brazilian jiu-jitsu, and his descendants. The UFC was created largely as the brainchild of Rorion Gracie, Helio's eldest son and BJJ black belt, as well as Art Davies, one of Rorion's student. In fact, according to many inside sources who were present for the UFC's founding, it was created in a large part to showcase BJJ for the US, just as Pride FC was created in a a large part to showcase Rickson Gracie, another one of Helio's sons, versus Nobuhiko Takada, a famous Japanese shoot-wrestler and mixed martial artist who also trained in a form of submission wrestling. So how exactly do you figure that modern MMA, which exists largely because the Gracies wanted to showcase the effectiveness of submission fighting versus pure striking styles, is somehow ruined because it did exactly that?

And finally, you have absolutely no idea about submission grappling. If you think getting a submission hold is a "basic skill" that can beat anybody, and the sport now revolves around using and avoiding those holds, then how do you figure that only one of the five current UFC title holders is a well-known submission specialist, and even HE won his title fight two days ago by knockout? If it's such a get-out-of-jail-free card, why doesn't everybody just use those magical subs? How come sprawl-and-brawl and ground-and-pound are becoming such dominant strategies of fighting in MMA fights? Oh, and what did you mean by "strength, skill, stamina or fighting spirit" having no effect on submission grappling? Superior skill, strength, stamina, and fighting spirit is what submission grappling is all about. The fighter with the greatest combination of all four will win, just as with any other art in MMA. Look at Yuki Nakai, the grappler who continued a fight despite being eye-gouged illegally to the point of complete blindness and yet continued on not only win his fight by submission but also fight AGAIN the SAME night against the most feared grappler in the world at the time, Rickson Gracie. Look at Ronaldo de Souza, aka Jacare, who had his arm broken in a fight but continued to fight and win. Heck, look at Rickson Gracie, who is well-known for having an insane cardio routines involving sandy beaches and mountain running. Or any of the MMA athletes at the top of the sport, who train and spar and weight lift and run and work out for hours on end each day and every day so they can become strong and build up endurance and improve their skills, all thanks to their fighting spirit and determination to be the best.

If you doubt me on any of those facts, just get yourself to a real, honest-to-goodness MMA gym, and tell the first MMA fighter you see that submission holds are ruining the sport. Seriously. I'd like to know what happens.

Do you know why I'm annoyed by your comment, Enzoblue? I'm annoyed because training submission grappling is not fucking easy. It is hard, painful work to train. It is expensive as hell, in terms of money as well as time and effort. I am shit-awful at it, and my only goal each day I step on the mat, which is every damn day, is to suck a little less than the day before, and sometimes, like today, I don't feel like that's happened, and I haven't been able to move my neck in certain directions for days because of a neck crank that got cranked on too hard. And yet tomorrow, I'm going to put on my smelly, sweaty gi, get in my friend's carpool, and go roll around on a mat with large, sweaty men who outweigh me by over 50 pounds on average for several hours, and come back tired and sore and cranky. (Hah, pun, get it? It's a joke because my spinal column isn't functioning properly.) And I'm happy with all of that, from the musty gym smell to the same old jokes my friends make about me being gay that they've made for years, because through my training I know I am acquiring a skillset that is not available or acquired in the general public, and yes, I do take pride in what I do because it is a part of my life and part of who I am, and also there's the fact that my training and dedication can and have helped me to choke fools out who are deserving of it, just as those things have saved the lives of friends and acquaintances who were attacked in ghettos and Iraqi villages. And yet here you come to say that I, along with every other MMA competitor who has devoted far larger amounts of their life to perfecting the art of submission grappling, am ruining the beautiful sport of mixed martial arts, a sport that I am, as well as those competitors far above me, dedicated to as well and one that I do my best to represent well in the public eye. No. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to let you say that, because you're wrong.

Consider this: the UFC and modern MMA changed what "one would actually consider fighting". People used to think those flicky, chambered TKD kicks would hurt, or that they could just avoid a takedown attempt with elbows to the spine, or even in later years, they could just fight out of guard. The sport has evolved, and anybody who has a half a brain can see that a good MMA fighter needs to train to fight out of the three ranges that have been established through the test of the fight, standup, clinch, and ground, as well as be able to strike, grapple, and submit from all three ranges if necessary, as well as defend against an opponent's attempts to do so to oneself. Submission grappling is part of the sport out of necessity, not because it's what people (and by that I mean Westerners) think of when they think about fighting, or because it looks pretty - it's in the sport because it works. The skills and abilities trained in sub grappling allow a more skilled fighter to beat a less skilled opponent, given reasonable size comparisons, just as with every other martial art that has been used with success in MMA. The concept of MMA is the extension of Bruce Lee's philosophy of Jeet Kune Do - take what works, and lose what doesn't. So in reality, sub grappling being used to win fights in MMA is really part of the evolution and development of martial arts, in fact it embodies what MMA and the development of effective martial arts is all about. And if that simple fact offends, then perhaps you don't understand quite as much about MMA as you might like to think you do.

Hey, no biggee. Like I said, I wasn't going after you personally, just clearing things up a bit. People, even martial artists, still get this particular issue all flipped about due to their misunderstanding/ignorance of Chinese culture and history pertaining to martial arts. I just do my best to clarify such things when the opportunity presents itself.

Anyways, take everything I say with a grain of salt, too. I mean, I do punch people as a hobby, after all.

Sorry, but this is sort of lame. Oh yes of course the martial artists pictured here are extremely skilled, and I don't doubt that they must have trained really hard to achieve such a high level of coordination. But this is no simulated fight, instead, it was more akin to dance.

That was Chuck Zito, who knocked out a probably drunk Van Damme. Zito is a martial artist, very big, and one of those neanderthal type guys who like punching people, so VD had little chance. Many a drunk tough guy (legitimately tough) has been owned by a sober bouncer.

This is obviously a bunch of fake clips assembled around the genuine "afroninja" clip. They're probably real martial artists or stuntmen..

This guy does the traditional Muay Tai, or Tai Boxing. Not the MMA derivative. Im looking forward to this guy, and the guy who did Kung Fu Hustle doing more movies.

Its just funny, some people think that this stuff is great in combat, it is very high risk and delivers very good damage. He is always doing some crazy attacks, i wanna see him do more traditional close in stuff. Flying knees are great until that person moves out of the way.

I respect this style, just like Mok Gar though i wonder on its practical use. The stuff we see in movies isn't what he would really do if he had to use it (I Hope). Martial artist pride themselves on being able to fight and win with minimal effort.

Any way the music was great, and i Love martial Arts Videos! keep em comming!

Its so amazing how he is still an unknown martial artist. The man is at least on par with Jet Li, maybe better. He's also been around hong kong cinema for a long time.

Wow, Jackie Chan in his prime, matched against another martial artist with a speed and style just as good, if not better. Great choreography! I think it's from this movie, right?

I'd love to see the outtake reel of this scene if there even is any -- both men are so good at what they do that I'm sure they only needed at most 2 or 3 takes for each part!

Board breaking uses special wood. You try to break a solid piece of cedar with your head. It wont work, personally i see no reason for any martial artist to practice breaking boards or bricks.

A quote in one of an Aikido book states something like this.
If a student thinks that Kenjutsu is about swinging a stick (or sword) around and banging them together to make loud noises, then they are not a student, but a fool.

All that showman stuff is great when you are demonstrating to get people to come to your Dojo, but although most traditional martial art schools still charge you to learn, most will take a student on if said student has enough determination.

Breaking boards is one thing, accepting the way of the peaceful warrior is another.