how sad that during the dark ages,when europe was in a fundamentalist stranglehold it was the nations of islam which had created the most egalitarian societies at that point in history.

humanity also owes islam a thanks for saving a portion of the library of alexandria,mathmatics specifically.

1500 years later fundamentalism is once again attempting to choke humanity into submission.a rigid and backward interpretation of biblical texts which in their time were meant to free humanity is now used to enslave humanity.

why a fundamentalist (choose your flavor) would dismiss such a rich history and which gave us so much art,science and culture.(lets remember the first schools and hence the first scientists were religious).this just boggles my mind.

to defend certain text just because YOU have given it supreme authority and to deviate even a micron,even if overwhelming evidence to the contrary is provided,is just a failure of imagination.sadly the fundamentalist sees any disagreement with biblical text as somehow refuting god,so they are forced to defend the indefensible.

i am an apostate.
and i approve this message.

I think I get the gist of what you're saying, and you're certainly way more schooled that me.

It is of course dangerous to generalise from anecdotes - I threw them in because clearly I now have a bias and they're part of the reason why.

Maybe there's something in the practice of modern Islam that's not working.

I tell you what's funny is that when I went to church for the funeral in June I remembered *everything*, all the amens and hosanna in the highests and exactly when to stand up or kneel. And this is after many years of not going to church.

In reply to this comment by enoch:
former catholic eh?
many people come to me from the ecclestiastical teachings of catholicism very confused.
cant blame them...the doctrine of the church is contradictory to the teachings of jesus,and the papacy has for centuries amended doctrine when it so suited them.
which is EXACTLY my point.
substitute catholic for muslim and my point my become clearer.
religious dogma and doctrine has always been the whipping tool of those who hold the reigns.preying on the weak,poor and ill-educated to submit to a doctrine that is contradictory to the teachings of <fill in holy messenger HERE>.
i could spend hours debunking the biblical (quran,torah,KJV) scriptures that have been misused to perpetuate a misnomer on:womens rights,sexuality,marriage,sin etc etc eeeeeetc.
most atheists i know are not in reality atheists,just agnostics who have peeked through the veil of the church and found it lacking.
many of them are angry,feeling betrayed by an institution that so often stated that they were right.
no...they werent.
the thing i find most funny is that every spiritual "leader"(if i may)has denounced the church of that time as being a form of evil fomenting more evil.
but i digress (i know..shocker),
my point is that islam has enriched human society tenfold.
by creating the most egalitarian society 500 a.d
womens rights 525 a.d
property rights 525 a.d
the continuation of sciences,so while europe got bogged down in the 600 yr dark ages and the church raped the countryside with its inquistitions,islam was not only preserving but helping to restore as much of the library of alexandria as it could.
fairness,justice,honesty virtues held in huge regard.
humility and reverence for all creation.
these are worthy things to admire.

maybe its the history teacher in me,i tend to look at information in giant blocks.the ebb and flow of time,forces of social upheavel and political unrest changing one national landscape to form into another.philisophical tectonic plates if you will.sometime i forget the here and now.
the teachings of mohamhed and jesus are poignant and wise.
i do not like the polarized nature of our countries,it only leads to danger.
i am sorry that the situation is where its at in your country.
by your response i can never know,but i can guess:
the newly immigrated islamic community is using its religion to strongarm the rest of the community to bend to the churches wishes.
i shall look more into this,i welcome any anecdotes you may wish to reveal.
while i still feel the billions of muslims are being misunderstood due to these few who butcher a beautiful text to garner their desires.
that is NOT from islam..nor christianity for that matter.
but they keep saying thats exactly what the text says dont they?
and they could not be more wrong.
those who are unfamiliar with islamic text base their assumptions on these selfish people.
sad sad sad....
what could have been a good and righteous thing is now an instrument of divisiveness.
bah...rambling again.
thank you for the reply my friend,i do hope this makes a modicum of sense.
namaste.

former catholic eh?
many people come to me from the ecclestiastical teachings of catholicism very confused.
cant blame them...the doctrine of the church is contradictory to the teachings of jesus,and the papacy has for centuries amended doctrine when it so suited them.
which is EXACTLY my point.
substitute catholic for muslim and my point my become clearer.
religious dogma and doctrine has always been the whipping tool of those who hold the reigns.preying on the weak,poor and ill-educated to submit to a doctrine that is contradictory to the teachings of <fill in holy messenger HERE>.
i could spend hours debunking the biblical (quran,torah,KJV) scriptures that have been misused to perpetuate a misnomer on:womens rights,sexuality,marriage,sin etc etc eeeeeetc.
most atheists i know are not in reality atheists,just agnostics who have peeked through the veil of the church and found it lacking.
many of them are angry,feeling betrayed by an institution that so often stated that they were right.
no...they werent.
the thing i find most funny is that every spiritual "leader"(if i may)has denounced the church of that time as being a form of evil fomenting more evil.
but i digress (i know..shocker),
my point is that islam has enriched human society tenfold.
by creating the most egalitarian society 500 a.d
womens rights 525 a.d
property rights 525 a.d
the continuation of sciences,so while europe got bogged down in the 600 yr dark ages and the church raped the countryside with its inquistitions,islam was not only preserving but helping to restore as much of the library of alexandria as it could.
fairness,justice,honesty virtues held in huge regard.
humility and reverence for all creation.
these are worthy things to admire.

maybe its the history teacher in me,i tend to look at information in giant blocks.the ebb and flow of time,forces of social upheavel and political unrest changing one national landscape to form into another.philisophical tectonic plates if you will.sometime i forget the here and now.
the teachings of mohamhed and jesus are poignant and wise.
i do not like the polarized nature of our countries,it only leads to danger.
i am sorry that the situation is where its at in your country.
by your response i can never know,but i can guess:
the newly immigrated islamic community is using its religion to strongarm the rest of the community to bend to the churches wishes.
i shall look more into this,i welcome any anecdotes you may wish to reveal.
while i still feel the billions of muslims are being misunderstood due to these few who butcher a beautiful text to garner their desires.
that is NOT from islam..nor christianity for that matter.
but they keep saying thats exactly what the text says dont they?
and they could not be more wrong.
those who are unfamiliar with islamic text base their assumptions on these selfish people.
sad sad sad....
what could have been a good and righteous thing is now an instrument of divisiveness.
bah...rambling again.
thank you for the reply my friend,i do hope this makes a modicum of sense.
namaste.

No problemo, Swampy. I enjoyed the exchange.

Although...the word agnostic comes from "gnōsis" which is Greek for knowledge. So if we're to ignore the contemporary parlance for agnosticism (as an interim position between atheist and believer) and use the correct definition, agnosticism relates to knowledge where atheism relates to belief in god.

In short, an agnostic believes that the existence of god cannot be known. It says nothing about the belief (itself) in god.

The two terms are mutually exclusive. So a person can be one of the following: a gnostic theist, an agnostic theist, a gnostic atheist, or an agnostic atheist.

Related to your comment about "belief system," one would be tempted to call the above codification as exactly that: a belief system. But "belief" is the wrong word, I think. It certainly shares a similarity to the scientific method: where things are categorized & codified all the time. So it's probably a system, all right, but it's more of a knowledge system, less of a belief system.

To a scientist, knowledge or fact is the seed of belief. More and more, lately, belief is the seed of knowledge and we think that's a very dangerous path to be on.

I'm reminded of the Royal Library of Alexandria, Egypt, which was founded in the 3rd century BC by Ptolemy II. It has been said that it contained as many as one million books (or scrolls) before it was burned to the ground by those in power (political, military, etc). Efforts to rebuild the library were ultimately for naught because by the 8th century AD, it was no longer a significant institution and had ceased to function in any important capacity.

So it took an entire 1100 years for mankind to go from an all-encompassing thirst for knowledge to complete apathy. That's a long, slow change in attitude. What value will we assign to knowledge one thousand years from now?

Anyway, forgive me for this tangent. See you on the sift!

regards,
-Shuac

In reply to this comment by swampgirl:
I was a bit defensive for the underdog here because I am a former Christian. I suppose I would call myself agnostic now. Thanks for the polite and sincere replies.

Chief Librarian of the Great Library of Alexandria is on my list of 'Best Jobs That Have Ever Existed But Will Never Exist Again". Alas, alack, welladay....

The Libraries of Alexandria all over again.

It's all a bit of history repeating therealblankman, I liken it to the burning of Library of Alexandria.

Hey , the albums and viddies and volumes available, to our fingies, as the result of anyone who inspires that gush, is enough to inspire as well, the rebuild project for the library at Alexandria.-- ....that's after killing the offspring of whosoevers' idea it was to burn that dive down in the first place...
A small reminder of what ist it is, you wield, by lurking here.. and now.

....Hell yeah, Can't ya see this coming, and truth being stranger than contrivences, it'll probly' go down with some hacker units taking Oswald's role, as skilled dupes.
...Didn't the fuckin' Muslims destroy the Library at Alexandria??? Kings would have destroyed other kingdoms for the power induviduals have at their fingertips today-Anywhere there is a threat of power being usurped, the finite and linear types go crazy!

(I've had two radio stations broadcasting from my home, on the FM band, at acceptable outputs...never had an incident-the FCC knows where to fine me!
( No violations yet, Probly' cause I only have a handfull of rural neighbors who can pick me up!!)

OMGZ HUMAN HAX

But seriously, Is it hard to believe that perhaps like we had our Albert Einstein and Isaac Newton, the ancient world would have the similar great scholars that would make these constructions possible? Human progression has really taken place because we publish works of knowledge, preserve them and pass them on.

We know that we have lost so many old world works of science and knowledge, lost in place like the library of Alexandria. Who knows what people might have deduced by then via ancient scholars? As to the large structures and alingment of the stars? Those were the world's wonders at the time. Why wouldn't one worship it, their mystery must have baffled these ancient peoples just like they do us now.

And Mars-Earth connections? Cheap shot using the old photographs that make it look like a face and pyramids. That same site has been photographed countless times showing no evidence of structures just natural formations. I don't think the drones they have at mars would be racing towards a large crater looking for possible evidence of microscopic life if there was evidence of a intelligent structures on mars.

I don't understand why we have to always say we relied on someone else to progress. Still entertianing watching.