>> ^VoodooV:

gee, shiny resorts to harassment? color me shocked!
I'm sorry, but ill say it again, people like shiny need to be kicked out of here. It has nothing to do with conservatism or religion, these people simply don't contribute to civil discourse. I know plenty of conservative/religious people who are capable of engaging in civil debate and discourse, Shiny or QM, and others aren't among these people
They drop their talking points and move on to the next sift. That's not debate, that's not discourse. And you certainly can't have rational discussions with someone who no matter what, thinks you need to be saved and doesn't view you as an equal human being and him and his god are always correct and you're always wrong. It's not conducive to rational discussion and quite frankly, it's simply not healthy, period.
And yes, it is trolling.
Remember that even though they seem to be an endangered species, there are actual rational right wingers out there. You may disagree with them, but they can actually debate civilly without regurgitating Fox News or Theistic propaganda.


This is such an old response and thread, but I thought I'd say it anyway as I really want it said in here.

I've met, actually, a great many people that are very set in their theistic mindset, but like you said they also don't think I'm going to burn in a pit of fire come the end of time; in fact quite a few of them would be morally outraged if such a thing occurred--as they literally know, like me, that the difference between believing in God and not, is merely a thought away (or you could say, one neuron connection/pathway away).

There are a few that believe in fire and brimstone type things, but they only--typically--reserve it for the greatest of crimes (like an Adolf Hitler or Pol Pot). Even fewer still that believe that there is a harsh judgment remaining for a lot of people, but they tend to believe that there is a way to "return" or to repent there--in the "lake of fire" and come back a new person.

BUT, the ones that think there IS a hell, absolute and horrifying in all it's glory, these are ALSO the very same people that cannot have a rational discussion with you. It's very strange. It's as though their ability to actively decide whether actions in play are moral or not are by definition an unanswerable question until they have been told by someone ELSE what that answer is: either the Bible, other religious members, or talk show hosts, and you get my picture. THESE are the dangerous people.

It reminds me of the story in the Old Testament, in Numbers 15:32-36 (for those that wish to read it). Now I know many *newer* religions, get around this stuff by saying they use the New Testament (it has it's fun stuff too, but for now, let's just do this one) due to Christ's Salvation and his, yada yada yada yada yada--I heard this for a long time myself as a Mormon and in some Catholic services I went to.

This guy collects what is essentially firewood on the Sabbath (this was back in the day when not having a fire active in your house/hut/tent/whatever at night could literally mean death--in case you've never been out camping/hiking, fires are VERY important and are a DAMNED LUXURY with our matches, steel wool, sleeping bags made to hold in heat, and other items that make a night in the wilderness go by--gently and one could say comfortably fun).

Instead of just collecting this firewood, making a meal and going to bed, this guy gets caught for working on the Sabbath and is taken to Moses and Aaron. So we all know what that little commandment this is, the one EVERYONE disobeys now (It goes by either of these two definitions and there are more versions--trust me: Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. -OR- Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.). So God buzzes Moses on the iGodphone™ and tells Moses the bad news, or well the good news and the bad news. The bad news is that "unnamed villager" will be taken outside the encampment, with what sounds like most of the people and then stoned to death. The good news, is they get to stone someone (sorry, but back then and with the regularity of which stoning happened I really think people enjoyed it when these edicts came on down...)!

SO, I've seen this tale said many a time and I CANNOT believe the amount of heads I see move up and down while this is repeated. They LITERALLY agree with cold-blooded murder in the first-degree, for GATHERING FIREWOOD!!! In the damned ages BEFORE the Dark Ages-life SUCKED! You NEEDED FIRE!!! It wasn't a question of maybe I'll skip it tonight it was a matter of when do I start it up--every night! So you can see why people like this can be dangerous as someone from on high that they think is their leader gives them what essentially is a crime, they don't think to long about it--they act, and carry out whatever truly horrifying act it was.

This has been abused by many Cult leaders, like the "Alien Comet riders" or also known as Heaven's Gate in California or something even MORE horrifying like Jonestown (something that was horrific--there are some GREAT documentaries on this to watch,; I suggest looking for them) or something semi-recent like (straight from wiki), "The 778 deaths of members of the Ugandan group Movement for the Restoration of the Ten Commandments of God, on March 17, 2000, is considered to be a mass murder and suicide orchestrated by leaders of the group.", so you can see while large religions don't do these WILD events they DO slowly in fact do smaller and incrementally increase their crimes.

You might ask what crimes, but it is literally crimes that we can point to that are AGAINST the VERY FABRIC of your own teachings. Use the Golden Rule in your life and get rid of the authority driven craziness, it will only lead you to sadness, if you're a zealot--fight it within yourself.
--------

So, anyway, what I'm saying is that I very much agree that there ARE many people that are theistic believers (not just Christan ones mind you) that are GREAT to talk to and many times you don't even have to argue with them you can have laid back conversations with them--it's amazing who you run into.

BUT, for the people I mentioned they are nearly lost causes. I don't know exactly what their problem is but it does have something to do with the fact that they MUST be told a "truth" by a "high-ranking-official" for them to change a stance. They are TRUE believers, ZEALOTS to their cause and dangerous.

A little bit the same as you said @VoodooV, but I thought I'd add a few more nails into that coffin.

gee, shiny resorts to harassment? color me shocked!

I'm sorry, but ill say it again, people like shiny need to be kicked out of here. It has nothing to do with conservatism or religion, these people simply don't contribute to civil discourse. I know plenty of conservative/religious people who are capable of engaging in civil debate and discourse, Shiny or QM, and others aren't among these people

They drop their talking points and move on to the next sift. That's not debate, that's not discourse. And you certainly can't have rational discussions with someone who no matter what, thinks you need to be saved and doesn't view you as an equal human being and him and his god are always correct and you're always wrong. It's not conducive to rational discussion and quite frankly, it's simply not healthy, period.

And yes, it is trolling.

Remember that even though they seem to be an endangered species, there are actual rational right wingers out there. You may disagree with them, but they can actually debate civilly without regurgitating Fox News or Theistic propaganda.

>> ^jmzero:
I appreciated your reply, and your "fate of the rich" comment, @shinyblurry. Clearly we don't agree on lots of stuff (and I was, true to character, angry in my initial response) but I understand your perspective on the political bits and am inclined to agree with your interpretation on the religious ones (whatever we disagree in terms of cosmic reality, I think we agree that Jesus had a worthwhile philosophy that's worth understanding). And we also agree that this video was really grating, so there's that too .

Thanks, I am glad we can agree on something, especially if it is Jesus. I'm glad you can see something worthwhile in what He has taught us. Even when I was agnostic I recognized a deeper wisdom in His words that I hadn't seen anywhere else. I suspect we have more areas of agreement about it, but of course we are looking at the world through very different glasses. I'm interested to hear what your particular prescription is, if you feel like sharing that some time.

As far as anger goes, don't sweat it. I've been guilty of being fairly reactive as well, and I apologize for that. This medium does not always lend itself well to civil discourse, and without being able to read facial expressions and body language, misinterpretations are inevitable. It is also an issue that tugs at your heart strings, because it touches everything about who you are as a person. It goes straight to the core of a persons belief system. That can be a sensitive area for many.

And yes, this video is obnoxious, but somehow something good came out of it.

>> ^lantern53:

Our job is boring most of the time, the dangerous part is the fun part.
But I know where you libs come from, I understand why you do and say as you do.
You can call me or anyone else a douchbag, it's your preferred method of discourse. I deal with people like you all the time, it's what we get paid to do, lol.
When you grow up, you'll come around.


pot calling the kettle black much?

you don't really get to claim the high road in discourse when you spit out a phrase like "you libs" or "people like you"

It has this habit of clearly demonstrating that you have no clue what civil discourse is.

Guys, I'm not kidding. The sift really does seem to have a problem with the rampant trolling.

This has nothing to do with left v right. It has to do with the rampant ad-homs, strawmans, and other logical fallacies committed by various people.

All I want is some more active moderation of these comments to promote a more civil discourse. It's pretty obvious this video wasn't sifted to promote genuine discussion, just to troll up and pick a fight, not debate. It should be clear that there isn't going to be much productive discussion in this thread and very little good will come out of it.

Got some arguments to make? make them. Attack the idea, not the person, and quit playing the victim card when someone calls you out on your bs.

Seriously, look up logical fallacies if you haven't. Hell, even Conservapedia's article on logical fallacies appears accurate.

Read from the top. YOU are the only person here who is encouraging a fight. Admit it. The only reason you posted that comment was to pick a fight with me.

You don't know me. I don't pick fights. I had no idea such a stupid debate even existed on the internet. The point made in this video is interesting in spite of how it usually seems to go down out there in the rest of the net. Vi Hart's videos are usually about cool facts that can be derived from math, often ones that seem counterintuitive. Your comparison of Vi Hart to QM is vacuous.>> ^VoodooV:

So enlighten me, o' wise ones. What is the point of this other than troll-bait and/or ego masturbation?
This topic is the intellectual equivalent of QM coming in here and making ad-homs about "His Earness" or waxing egocentric about why he is virtuous and true and the rest of us are all immoral entitlement whores.
You saw how quickly messenger called into question the entire sift's intelligence over Entropy's post.
This sort of thing does not lend itself well to civil discourse. Admit it, the only purpose of a topic such as this is to entice someone to come in here and to argue that .999... is not 1 so you can have a grand ole time stroking your ego and patting yourself on the back over how smart you are and how the other person is dumb.

>> ^VoodooV:

LOL!!! you're comparing this topic to the actual work that engineers and physicists do? That is hilarious. Yes, I'm sure the engineering world has much to thank the awesome ability of arguing on a message board over what .999... is equal to.
This has nothing to do with calculus. This has nothing to do with actual practical work. This has nothing to do with solving actual problems. This is about going onto a internet message board and browbeating others which has already happened as I predicted.
Before you start insulting the education of someone else, make sure YOU'RE not making any mistakes of YOUR own, eh?
Sorry I can't stay and "debate" with you on this truly fascinating topic. I have to go to my job tomorrow and do REAL work and solve ACTUAL problems. Sure it's not as grand and as thought-provoking as comparing .999... to 1, nor do I get to beat up on some hapless internet newb who happens to take the troll-bait. But hey, we have to get our satisfaction somehow.
>> ^bcglorf:
>> ^VoodooV:
So enlighten me, o' wise ones. What is the point of this other than troll-bait and/or ego masturbation?
This topic is the intellectual equivalent of QM coming in here and making ad-homs about "His Earness" or waxing egocentric about why he is virtuous and true and the rest of us are all immoral entitlement whores.
You saw how quickly messenger called into question the entire sift's intelligence over Entropy's post.
This sort of thing does not lend itself well to civil discourse. Admit it, the only purpose of a topic such as this is to entice someone to come in here and to argue that .999... is not 1 so you can have a grand ole time stroking your ego and patting yourself on the back over how smart you are and how the other person is dumb.

This simple concept is one of the fundamental principles of calculus. Without it you don't have engineering, physics, or a million other things known as the modern world. It's not some obscure irrelevant math trivia only used by math geeks. It is a fundamental first year mathematics principle used by every scientist, engineer, and pharmacist in the work they do every day to make all the things you take for granted.
But yeah, just because your not educated enough to appreciate that you should rag all over it and insist it's unimportant. We should burn all the books you don't care for too, right?



Get over yourself. The video isn't supposed to start any kind of fight or internet debate. It's a simply instructive video about basic math.

If you want to be upset with anyone for starting an internet fight over something you consider unimportant blame the first poster in the thread that tried to turn it that way...

Oh, I see, it was you...

LOL!!! you're comparing this topic to the actual work that engineers and physicists do? That is hilarious. Yes, I'm sure the engineering world has much to thank the awesome ability of arguing on a message board over what .999... is equal to.

This has nothing to do with calculus. This has nothing to do with actual practical work. This has nothing to do with solving actual problems. This is about going onto a internet message board and browbeating others which has already happened as I predicted.

Before you start insulting the education of someone else, make sure YOU'RE not making any mistakes of YOUR own, eh?

Sorry I can't stay and "debate" with you on this truly fascinating topic. I have to go to my job tomorrow and do REAL work and solve ACTUAL problems. Sure it's not as grand and as thought-provoking as comparing .999... to 1, nor do I get to beat up on some hapless internet newb who happens to take the troll-bait. But hey, we have to get our satisfaction somehow.

>> ^bcglorf:

>> ^VoodooV:
So enlighten me, o' wise ones. What is the point of this other than troll-bait and/or ego masturbation?
This topic is the intellectual equivalent of QM coming in here and making ad-homs about "His Earness" or waxing egocentric about why he is virtuous and true and the rest of us are all immoral entitlement whores.
You saw how quickly messenger called into question the entire sift's intelligence over Entropy's post.
This sort of thing does not lend itself well to civil discourse. Admit it, the only purpose of a topic such as this is to entice someone to come in here and to argue that .999... is not 1 so you can have a grand ole time stroking your ego and patting yourself on the back over how smart you are and how the other person is dumb.

This simple concept is one of the fundamental principles of calculus. Without it you don't have engineering, physics, or a million other things known as the modern world. It's not some obscure irrelevant math trivia only used by math geeks. It is a fundamental first year mathematics principle used by every scientist, engineer, and pharmacist in the work they do every day to make all the things you take for granted.
But yeah, just because your not educated enough to appreciate that you should rag all over it and insist it's unimportant. We should burn all the books you don't care for too, right?

>> ^VoodooV:

So enlighten me, o' wise ones. What is the point of this other than troll-bait and/or ego masturbation?
This topic is the intellectual equivalent of QM coming in here and making ad-homs about "His Earness" or waxing egocentric about why he is virtuous and true and the rest of us are all immoral entitlement whores.
You saw how quickly messenger called into question the entire sift's intelligence over Entropy's post.
This sort of thing does not lend itself well to civil discourse. Admit it, the only purpose of a topic such as this is to entice someone to come in here and to argue that .999... is not 1 so you can have a grand ole time stroking your ego and patting yourself on the back over how smart you are and how the other person is dumb.


This simple concept is one of the fundamental principles of calculus. Without it you don't have engineering, physics, or a million other things known as the modern world. It's not some obscure irrelevant math trivia only used by math geeks. It is a fundamental first year mathematics principle used by every scientist, engineer, and pharmacist in the work they do every day to make all the things you take for granted.

But yeah, just because your not educated enough to appreciate that you should rag all over it and insist it's unimportant. We should burn all the books you don't care for too, right?

Education. It's good.
>> ^VoodooV:

So enlighten me, o' wise ones. What is the point of this other than troll-bait and/or ego masturbation?
This topic is the intellectual equivalent of QM coming in here and making ad-homs about "His Earness" or waxing egocentric about why he is virtuous and true and the rest of us are all immoral entitlement whores.
You saw how quickly messenger called into question the entire sift's intelligence over Entropy's post.
This sort of thing does not lend itself well to civil discourse. Admit it, the only purpose of a topic such as this is to entice someone to come in here and to argue that .999... is not 1 so you can have a grand ole time stroking your ego and patting yourself on the back over how smart you are and how the other person is dumb.

So enlighten me, o' wise ones. What is the point of this other than troll-bait and/or ego masturbation?

This topic is the intellectual equivalent of QM coming in here and making ad-homs about "His Earness" or waxing egocentric about why he is virtuous and true and the rest of us are all immoral entitlement whores.

You saw how quickly messenger called into question the entire sift's intelligence over Entropy's post.

This sort of thing does not lend itself well to civil discourse. Admit it, the only purpose of a topic such as this is to entice someone to come in here and to argue that .999... is not 1 so you can have a grand ole time stroking your ego and patting yourself on the back over how smart you are and how the other person is dumb.

Didn't find this too impressive. Kind of lends itself to an infinite loop of claiming that an individual isn't fairly considering the opposition. I'm all for a more civil discourse, but I think his reluctance to come up with any real solutions (besides advising us not to be jerks) shows he's just spinning his wheels.

Maybe I just can't see his point of view because I think people who write books are Satan.

>> ^heropsycho:

I think you're catching on to me not wanting any discourse with you. Congrats!


And yet you were crying about lack of "civil discourse".

Sounds like another cop-out to me. This time out of fear of an informed response.

>> ^heropsycho:

Dude, seriously? I'm thinking accusing someone of having a "re-occuring reading comprehension problem" is pretty douchey, especially when I had only responded to you once. You then called someone else a state-owned or ignorant "tool" (your idea I guess of being civil is saying it's either/or, not both) who is also very arrogant, for, oh horror of horrors, disagreeing with you.
Probably doesn't help with a follow up that you think me calling you out for this is a "pathetic cop-out".
I really can't see how any of that would be considered civil discourse outside of an episode of Jerry Springer.


Well, if you want to have any discourse at all it might help to tag who you are talking to or use the reply function. This is a re-occurring problem you have also.

If you're not having problems understanding what you are reading then you're repeatedly making straw-man arguments on purpose. That's what I call pretty "douchey".

And I was right. pathetic cop-out.

Dude, seriously? I'm thinking accusing someone of having a "re-occuring reading comprehension problem" is pretty douchey, especially when I had only responded to you once. You then called someone else a state-owned or ignorant "tool" (your idea I guess of being civil is saying it's either/or, not both) who is also very arrogant, for, oh horror of horrors, disagreeing with you.

Probably doesn't help with a follow up that you think me calling you out for this is a "pathetic cop-out".

I really can't see how any of that would be considered civil discourse outside of an episode of Jerry Springer.