No matter the "good intentions" of liberals and liberalism, the reality of socialism is plain: welfare pays people to fail. Government has dismissed fathers from their responsibilities with predictable results.

Black Americans did better 50 years ago when discrimination was blatant and universal yet parents were married and family values were more than a joke for late-night liberal "comedians".

@longde

• I think knowledge about everything is always better (even about various ethnicities in my background); opposing data for normative reasons is never right.

• Ad hominems aren't an effective response to statistics, and I think in this case they also misunderstand; most of my interactions with African Americans are in athletic activities, where, by chance, my physical attributes are on the right side of the physical bell curve, and where people in general are nice and friendly. However, it'd be wrong to try to diminish someone's voice because of physical attributes, which are generally irrelevant in life.


Statistical differences in average crime rates between African Americans and e.g. Asians is a very reasonable statistical claim that everybody already agrees with; of course there are average differences between different groups in all manner of things. 1200% appears to be accurate.

My comment put AVERAGE in bold so that nobody would miss it. Using terms like "all black men" and references to Obama suggest you should take your advice on statistics and probability. The reason I tend to refer to Obama, Herman Cain's son, and Black Americans born in Africa is to emphasis differences in cultures and where group averages don't apply.


Sorry if it was upsetting. I know that when I feel misunderstood, it occopies time in my mind that'd I'd rather spend elsewhere. I do, though, like better knowledge achieved through multiple people's perspectives. So thanks for the discussions. Best wishes

>> ^mintbbb:

Sorry, it is very dead


Fixed.

As much as people bemoan Reverend Wright, I never really got the controversy.

Can you please give me a direct quote where the pastor denigrates white people? Or says that black people are superior? While he talks about about race, complains about racial issues, and blasts the government, what racist thing did he say? 'Cause I can pull out reams of quotes from those Ron Paul newletters that denigrate blacks and push white supremacy.

You do know that that church recorded years of its Sunday services? That's how journalists could find a few choice quotes in years of sermons. But even with all that material to sift through, they found alot of nothing.

Where's the video where Reverend Wright stands in front of a black power flag and spouts off revisionist history to a the black version of neo-confederates?

I think its a shame that Obama had to ditch that church because some of his white supporters don't realize that black americans still complain loudly about racism in America.>> ^quantumushroom:

@NetRunner and others, I question your collective "concern" over this non-issue, which is comical considering Dr. Paul has no chance of wining the nomination (or does he)?
I don't know if you voted for Chicago Jesus, but if the facts that he spent 20 years in the Church of Hate Whitey under the tutelage of the deranged Jeremiah Wright, got married in said church and also gave it 20Gs doesn't bother you, then your problem with Dr. Paul isn't "racism", it's libertarianism.
As soon as his loyal Democrat mainstream media lackeys warned him, Obama abandoned the church he "loved" like a true politician. If that satisfied you enough to consider him electable, than a few ragged newsletters no one has seen isn't going to throw off Dr. Paul's base.
I don't know who among you voted for The One way back in 2008, but even if you did not, if you lost no sleep over Obama's questionable past (the parts the loyal MSM lackeys didn't or couldn't hide) then your arguments against Dr. Paul's past are moot.


>> ^NetRunner:
@Lawdeedaw I think there are several problems with that rant:

1. It assumes Ron Paul has changed
   
2. It assumes Ron Paul would be "neutral" on race
   
3. It assumes John Edwards cheating on his wife is worse than stoking racial animosity for personal gain
   
4. It expects us to forgive Ron Paul's sins, when Paul still denies having made them in the first place
   
5. It expects us to forgive Ron Paul's sins, when Paul hasn't really acted as though this sort of thing is something you need to apologize for and be contrite about
   
6. It expects us to have not forgiven John Edwards, even though he's publicly confessed, and been both contrite and repentant
   

And then just for good measure:

1. I don't presume to know you better than you know yourself, but I don't think you're a racist...
   
2. And if I take what you said at face value, it implies that people don't change (i.e. you don't like being racist, but can't help it), and that people can't just purge that from their system and become pure as the driven snow in a short span of time.
   

And...besides which, Ron Paul signed off on what was written, protected the identity of the author (before it was independently discovered), and has pretty much acted as if this is somehow an unfair thing to criticize him for, and generally not a big deal.

The alternative to Obama? 10 times worse. Especially for black americans.

I read this yesterday. I had a bad feeling and couldn't identify it at first.

It's the same thing that women faced (less so these days) -- they had to be much better, much smarter, much more of everything in order to get promotions/jobs.

Women and black Americans have always had a presence in higher echelons. There have been stellar examples in public life for hundreds of years.

Key word in that last sentence is "stellar." YOU HAVE TO BE head and shoulders better and tougher and wily and bull-headed and confident and impassioned to break through and rise above the mass of ordinary white men.

One amazing black man as president has not magically changed the world. It is a step.

He also is a role model -- and on that note, I agree with your friend. A path has been blazed. Now it needs to be trodden on again and again until the path is clear for the ordinary in addition to the extraordinary.




>> ^A10anis:

When Obama was elected a black friend of mine said; "We got a black president, maybe it's time to stop using our color as a reason for not getting better jobs."

>> ^quantumushroom:

"Racism" has multiple definitions. Part of definition #1 at Dictionary.com works for me. Racism is "a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement."
This is really the starting point for all the discussions to follow. You can only believe one or the other following statements:
1) The __________ race, taken as a whole, is inferior to other races and standards of society, and always will be. There is no way the ______ race can or will ever "make it" without outside help.
2) The __________ race, taken as a whole, facing historical challenges, is fully capable of the same achievements as other races. The most that society can give to anyone--aside from temporary financial aid--is equality of opportunity.
I believe the second statement, and not because I secretly want to end all government assistance for Blacks, Whites or anyone else.

Heh, the very definition of a false dichotomy. That said, you pretty obviously believe #1, not #2.

For proof, just re-read what you say in the rest of the comment:

>> ^quantumushroom:
The stats I listed show a disproportionate use of welfare services and out-of-wedlock births for Black Americans. There are additional stats indicating disproportionately high incarceration rates, specifically among Black males.
My interpretation of these FACTS is there is something seriously wrong with modern American Black cultural values, primarily a lack of personal responsibility.
If Newt, in his quote, was addressing only Black Americans, it was likely because of their disproportionate use of welfare services to their being only 13% of the population...and possibly he was attacking the overall acceptance of unsustainable welfare dependency as the norm. NO ONE of ANY race should be satisfied enough to live forever on handouts, and after 50 years of the welfare state and now whole family generations on welfare, isn't enough enough?

Let's cut the crap about "if" Newt was talking about black people -- he was, and so were you, and are again in this post. You are very clearly saying #1: that African-Americans apparently are inferior to other races, because their race can't even "make it" with 50 years worth of help, and that the rest of us should just cut our losses.

To go back to your false dichotomy, let me just add an option #3:

3) The __________ race, taken as a whole, is fully capable of the same achievements as other races, given the same opportunities. However, they don't get the same opportunities, because they are being treated by the rest of the society they live in as if they were inherently inferior. This is because, contrary to popular belief, racism isn't dead. As a result, it is easy for people to look at overall statistics, and proclaim that the inferiority is real, since the members of the __________ race tend to be poorer, have lower life expectancy, less stable families, lower grades, etc. People who point to these statistics as if they are some sort of justification for ending government services that are made available to all who are in need, regardless of race, are only perpetuating the stereotypes that are so harmful to this race.

What's more, I haven't even gone back and pushed back on your so-called factual rebuttal to the premise of the cartoon way back up at the top of the page. It's still true that more white people collect food stamps than any other race. It's still true that white people are the majority of medicaid recipients. It's still true that white people are the majority of recipients of subsidized housing. Hell, it's even primarily rural whites, as opposed to urban whites (hence the bit about "backwoods meth-heads").

Yet anytime the right talks about these programs there's always some sort of comment about minorities who participate in them, and usually they talk about these programs as if it's only minorities who rely on them, which isn't even close to true. Yeah, minorities wind up needing these programs disproportionately more than whites. But that's because they're disproportionately poorer than whites on average. So what? Unless you're trying to win support of racists, what the fuck does the race of the people participating in these programs have to do with the worthiness of the effort itself?

If you think welfare is bad for economic reasons, then just say that. Don't try to spin a program that takes from the rich to give to the poor and make it sound like it's actually about black people voting to make the government steal money from whites to give to blacks so they can keep being lazy.

That's what the cartoon's point is. That's why your response pissed me off so much.

Fair enough, looking forward to your responses.

I honestly think Obama is so fearful of being labeled racially biased that he hasn't stepped up and helped the black community enough. Although he has rolled back alot of the harmful DOJ policies that the Bush folks enacted.

Economically, this recession has hit black americans way harder than other segments. While I think some of the policies Obama has put in place to stem the recession has lifted all ships, I think there are things he could do to have a higher impact on a community that has twice the unemployment of white americans.>> ^quantumushroom:

Fair questions. Answers will require...a little digging. I can tell you right off that while 'workfare' in the 90s was a success, overall Newt was/is a blustery Big Talker, and the Rs barely changed things.
In the meantime, since Obama has been Prez for 4 years and Congress has been controlled by majority liberals (and still is) since 2006, what has been the net gain (or loss) for Black Americans? Hint: it can't ALL be Bush's fault.
>> ^longde:
@quantumushroom So get rid of welfare and food stamps, despite the fact that it helps a shitload of unemployed white people maintain the semblance of "middle class" living. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face. Every program that helps blacks that white people hate, helps whites many times more; that includes affirmative action. That's why the politicians who have been railing against these programs for your votes will never get rid of them; the backlash would be overwhelming.
QM, please answer this: Can you point to the gains that black Americans made as a result of the policy prescriptions put in place by the republicans when they had power, since the Newt House and the Bush administration? Even if they were race neutral policies. What has compassionate conservatism and the Contract with America yielded for African Americans? Newt's pretty silent about it, given his famous loquacity.
Hell, can you point the gains that white americans made, for that matter (1% excepted of course)?

Fair questions. Answers will require...a little digging. I can tell you right off that while 'workfare' in the 90s was a success, overall Newt was/is a blustery Big Talker, and the Rs barely changed things.

In the meantime, since Obama has been Prez for 4 years and Congress has been controlled by majority liberals (and still is) since 2006, what has been the net gain (or loss) for Black Americans? Hint: it can't ALL be Bush's fault.

>> ^longde:

@quantumushroom So get rid of welfare and food stamps, despite the fact that it helps a shitload of unemployed white people maintain the semblance of "middle class" living. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face. Every program that helps blacks that white people hate, helps whites many times more; that includes affirmative action. That's why the politicians who have been railing against these programs for your votes will never get rid of them; the backlash would be overwhelming.
QM, please answer this: Can you point to the gains that black Americans made as a result of the policy prescriptions put in place by the republicans when they had power, since the Newt House and the Bush administration? Even if they were race neutral policies. What has compassionate conservatism and the Contract with America yielded for African Americans? Newt's pretty silent about it, given his famous loquacity.
Hell, can you point the gains that white americans made, for that matter (1% excepted of course)?

@dystopianfuturetoday:

I see what you're going for, so here's your Yes. Where our opinions diverge is a matter of perspective.

Slavery is not unique to the Black race, nor even Black Americans, it's a worldwide institution with ancient origins that is still practiced in parts of Africa TODAY. Every race on earth has at one time been enslaved, just as every race on earth has also enslaved other races. As horrible as it seems to us, for centuries slavery was accepted as necessary and a part of life. For Black Americans to feel singled out is, to me, just silly.

So enter the Civil War, a complex struggle involving myriad factors that became more about slavery about halfway through. Republicans ended slavery. Not that is was all sugar and poetry: Lincoln said it didn't matter if he had to keep slavery or end it, he would do whichever it took to save the Union. Lincoln did the paperwork but the Abolitionists did the real work.

We had a Civil Rights movement and it was just. (Now we have a Special Rights movement that is unjust, but that's another chapter).

I don't buy this crap about psychic injuries from slavery. And yes, here is the part where I provide the transcript of Bill Cosby's "Poundcake speech". I know you're going to have your reasons for not liking what he had to say (and I'm sure Jesse Jackson, who was right beside him was shocked and pissed) but all the same, please READ IT.


Yes, there was a time in America where lynchings were common, racism was institutional and opportunities for Blacks were severely limited. That time has passed. Yes, there are remnants of the klan out there, but they're not the ones forcing Blacks to drop out of school, disparage reading books and getting an education as "the White Man's Game" or impregnating young girls like it's nothing.

We've had generation after generation of immigrants now, from Vietnam, India, the failed soviet bloc. They came here with nothing and in a generation or two have risen. And if the excuse is, 'Well, they're not Black," here come Blacks from the Caribbean, working hard and doing just as well. All of these immigrant groups have one HUGE advantage: they haven't suffered decades of this American victim mentality.

I trust your sincerity and the sincerity of all the liberals who want to see Black Americans improve their lot (and they have, most are middle class). But there are forces that demand the dependency of Black Americans and use a victim mentality to get their votes. I don't see why anyone would heed voices that say, 'You Can't Do It'.


RE: the "science" article bashing conservatives. In Japan there are "scientists" whose entire output is exceptionalist-nationalist philosophy (nihonjinron) that is to be taken very seriously. This article is on the same level as, "liberals are better lovers".








>> ^dystopianfuturetoday:

qm - Imagine if you and the rest of your ethnic heritage were brought to this country as prisoners, to be sold as property to other people. You are bought and sold and expected to do hard labor without protest. Any resistance could mean your life, or your foot, so you quickly learn to submit yourself to the authority of the ruling racial class. Your ethnic heritage, as a whole, is kept in poverty and ignorance for many generations. Old proud traditions are beaten out of you, and new ones are created in secret, out of the watchful eye of your master. You cannot sing your music, but you can sing in the church choir, so you create your own new culture under the restrictions imposed by your masters.
Then a century down the road, it is decided that slavery is wrong and you are set free. Unfortunately for you, you are in your middle age with no money or education in a culture where you are thought of as subhuman. In this hostile environment, you are expected to compete with people who have been free all their lives, and more sinisterly, people who loathe you and are actively against your progress. They even create organizations to make life worse for you and to form lynch mobs to murder you and your kind.
This new generation continues to pass along the legacy of poverty, lack of education, self doubt, fear and shame to further generations. For the next few generations, laws are set up to discriminate against your people, and it is publicly acceptable to insult, attack and even kill your underclass with minimal consequences. There are new freedoms and a desire to rise above, but there are so very many cultural barriers.
Eventually society decides this underclass should have the same rights as everyone else, but at this point, the legacy of slavery has been imprinted on an entire culture for many generations - Hundreds of years of negative cultural conditioning. Although free in law, there is still much animosity aimed at your group. Not only are ou different in color and culture, but you also carry the stigma of being poor and not having access to the same level of education of the ruling racial class.
Eventually steps are taken to reverse this legacy of hate, poverty and slavery through government assistance programs, and while costly, they do yield success as your underclass rises in wealth and social acceptance. The fact that we, the racial ruling class, see them as equal and expect them to do as well as we do speaks greatly to the change in culture over the last half century. But, just are the legacy of slavery lives on in black culture, so does the legacy of hate live on in white culture. Groups of neo-confederate whites are angry that there is an effort to help remedy a problem created by our forefathers. They don't care whether or not these programs have been successful, they just hate the idea of this long hated underclass getting some help.
Just as the legacy of poverty has made it's way from generation to generation, so has the legacy of hate.
Perhaps the neo-confederates should take the log out of their own eye, before cataloging the failings of others. Or at least, they could attempt some understanding of why these stats are the way they are, how much progress has been made, and what could be done to stop these destructive legacies in the future.

Do you see what I'm going for here, qm? I'd love a yes, even if it comes with heavy reservations.

"Racism" has multiple definitions. Part of definition #1 at Dictionary.com works for me. Racism is "a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement."

This is really the starting point for all the discussions to follow. You can only believe one or the other following statements:

1) The __________ race, taken as a whole, is inferior to other races and standards of society, and always will be. There is no way the ______ race can or will ever "make it" without outside help.

2) The __________ race, taken as a whole, facing historical challenges, is fully capable of the same achievements as other races. The most that society can give to anyone--aside from temporary financial aid--is equality of opportunity.

I believe the second statement, and not because I secretly want to end all government assistance for Blacks, Whites or anyone else.

The stats I listed show a disproportionate use of welfare services and out-of-wedlock births for Black Americans. There are additional stats indicating disproportionately high incarceration rates, specifically among Black males.

My interpretation of these FACTS is there is something seriously wrong with modern American Black cultural values, primarily a lack of personal responsibility.

If Newt, in his quote, was addressing only Black Americans, it was likely because of their disproportionate use of welfare services to their being only 13% of the population...and possibly he was attacking the overall acceptance of unsustainable welfare dependency as the norm. NO ONE of ANY race should be satisfied enough to live forever on handouts, and after 50 years of the welfare state and now whole family generations on welfare, isn't enough enough?

>> ^NetRunner:

@quantumushroom I almost feel like this wasn't even fair to you. You don't even understand what racism is.

@quantumushroom So get rid of welfare and food stamps, despite the fact that it helps a shitload of unemployed white people maintain the semblance of "middle class" living. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face. Every program that helps blacks that white people hate, helps whites many times more; that includes affirmative action. That's why the politicians who have been railing against these programs for your votes will never get rid of them; the backlash would be overwhelming.

QM, please answer this: Can you point to the gains that black Americans made as a result of the policy prescriptions put in place by the republicans when they had power, since the Newt House and the Bush administration? Even if they were race neutral policies. What has compassionate conservatism and the Contract with America yielded for African Americans? Newt's pretty silent about it, given his famous loquacity.

Hell, can you point the gains that white americans made, for that matter (1% excepted of course)?
>> ^eric3579:

Dont you think maybe these results may be more closely tied to money (poverty) and or education then your statistics which seem to infer that it has something to do with the color of your skin. ...or maybe I just don't understand what you are trying to say.
>> ^quantumushroom:
68.7% of Blacks are born out of wedlock
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/pdf/nvsr50_05tb19.pdf
62% of ALL black births are paid for by the US government
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/datawh/statab/pubd/2319_69.htm [archived]
Though only 12% of the population, Blacks take 38.3% of the total of all welfare payments. Whites are 72% of the population, and take 30.5% of the total.
http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/leavers99/race.htm#fig1
Though only 12% of the population, Blacks take 38% of taxpayer-subsidized housing
http://www.huduser.org/datasets/assthsg/statedata96/descript.htm

What percentage of these stats are the direct result of the welfare state acting as a morality-free surrogate for Black fathers and husbands? A near-70% illegitimacy rate is unsustainable, and Whites are 'catching up' with a present illegitimacy rate of 40%.
How has being loyal Democrats "helped" Black Americans?

Dont you think maybe these results may be more closely tied to money (poverty) and or education then your statistics which seem to infer that it has something to do with the color of your skin. ...or maybe I just don't understand what you are trying to say.
>> ^quantumushroom:

68.7% of Blacks are born out of wedlock
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/pdf/nvsr50_05tb19.pdf
62% of ALL black births are paid for by the US government
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/datawh/statab/pubd/2319_69.htm [archived]
Though only 12% of the population, Blacks take 38.3% of the total of all welfare payments. Whites are 72% of the population, and take 30.5% of the total.
http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/leavers99/race.htm#fig1
Though only 12% of the population, Blacks take 38% of taxpayer-subsidized housing
http://www.huduser.org/datasets/assthsg/statedata96/descript.htm

What percentage of these stats are the direct result of the welfare state acting as a morality-free surrogate for Black fathers and husbands? A near-70% illegitimacy rate is unsustainable, and Whites are 'catching up' with a present illegitimacy rate of 40%.
How has being loyal Democrats "helped" Black Americans?

68.7% of Blacks are born out of wedlock

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/pdf/nvsr50_05tb19.pdf

62% of ALL black births are paid for by the US government

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/datawh/statab/pubd/2319_69.htm [archived]

Though only 12% of the population, Blacks take 38.3% of the total of all welfare payments. Whites are 72% of the population, and take 30.5% of the total.

http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/leavers99/race.htm#fig1

Though only 12% of the population, Blacks take 38% of taxpayer-subsidized housing

http://www.huduser.org/datasets/assthsg/statedata96/descript.htm


What percentage of these stats are the direct result of the welfare state acting as a morality-free surrogate for Black fathers and husbands? A near-70% illegitimacy rate is unsustainable, and Whites are 'catching up' with a present illegitimacy rate of 40%.

How has being loyal Democrats "helped" Black Americans?

One vote proves groupthink? Seriously?

I can show you votes where a majority of any particular group votes one way. On that particular election, there are other explanations: 1) the mormons heavily canvassed black communities, while the opponents of the measure took it for granted blacks would vote for their issue. 2) the rampant anti-black racism present in many pockets of the gay community in California.

On your link, I could pick out the qualities on that list and apply them to any given ethnic group, if I were to use stereotyping and conjecture, as you have done.

Race is a social construct, with real consequences for the people put in a group by society. Blackness in America is defined by appearance and the "one drop rule". Blackness is also defined by a shared culture and history, especially due to the forced isolation of black americans over the years. Given that, for you to flippantly say that blackness doesn't even exist (and to imply that by extension anti-black messages and bigotry similarly don't exist) is absurd and kind of arrogant.

All that said, the black american community still has a rainbow of perspectives, political views, religious views, aesthetic tastes, etc, that belies the premise of this video.

Don't work too hard. Peace out.

>> ^GenjiKilpatrick:

Sorry @longde, not to be too rude but.. you clearly don't know what the hell you're talking about.
The way the majority of Californian blacks voted for Proposition 8 [Nov 2008] show clear signs of groupthink.
http://www.psysr.org/about/pubs_resources/groupthink%20overview.htm
[3 & 4 mainly].
I'm gonna assume you're a white dude viewing this video thru a lens of what appears to be white guilt.
Which is alright, but it definitely limits your understanding of my point I guess.
Tho as a half blackie with a vehement black power father, I'll have to assure you I know just how inculcated old black men can become on positions of race and morality. [Never torture your kids by taking them to NAACP meetings please]
Moreover, since RACE DOESN'T EXIST - only skin tones and culture - it's even dumber for you, white people, black people or any people to be upset about this group of black people for supporting "anti-black" rhetoric.
I'll discuss this further if your want to understand these people's reasoning better. Late for work right now tho.
Peace