In the past, Israel has offered up substantial territory to its neighbors in the hopes of broadening peaceful relations. The result has always been the same: the receiving countries remain hateful ingrates dedicated to destroying Israel.

gwaan, you purport to want peace for the Middle East...how do you explain your support of Israel's right to exist to those you're defending, who do not?

"In the past, Israel has offered up substantial territory to its neighbors in the hopes of broadening peaceful relations."

Israel has never given up any land that it wants. It has never even entered into negotiations about Jerusalem or other key areas of the occupied territories. It only abandoned a very small number of settlements because they were economically unsustainable. Instead it invested more money in other more substantial illegal settlements and stole more Palestinian land.

"you purport to want peace for the Middle East...how do you explain your support of Israel's right to exist to those you're defending, who do not?"

I do support Israel's right to exist just not its right to steal land, and suppress and murder innocent people. The right to fight back against your illegal occupiers is recognised in international law - the right to occupy illegally and to degrade and murder on a daily basis is not. Israel does not recognise the right of the Palestinians to live, let alone the right of them to have their own sovereign state. After fifty years of violations of Palestinian rights, destruction of Palestinian homes, and murdering of Palestinian people are you suprised that they elect a government that says enough is enough - if you won't recognise us we won't recognise you. From an early age Palestinians learn that if they fight Israel will kill them, if they get involved in peaceful direct action Israel will kill them, and if they do nothing Israel will still kill them. So no wonder they choose to fight. For fifty years the Palestinian people have withstood the illegal advances of one of the world's most powerful military states with little more than a few guns and their own bodies.

Stop talking crap QM - I'm getting really sick of your ill-informed, bigotted, stupid comments.

This isn't personal. In the marketplace of ideas, we are both selling and buying.

Have you thought this out thoroughly? What happens when/if "the Palestinians" get their "own" nation? It will end up another launchpad for rockets.

http://factsandlogic.org/ad_77.html

But how about the legal aspect of this matter? Isn’t the “West Bank” “occupied territory” and therefore the Jews have no right to be there? But the historic reality is quite different. Very briefly: The Ottoman Empire was the sovereign in the entire area. In 1917, while World War I was still raging, Britain issued the Balfour Declaration. It designated “Paleatine” — extending throughout what is now Israel (including the “West Band”) and what is now the Kingdom of Jordan — as the homeland for the Jewish people. In 1922, the League of Nations ratified the Balfour Declaration and designated Britain as the mandatory power. Regrettably, Britain, for its own imperial reasons and purposes, separated 76 percent of the land — that lying beyond the Jordan River — to create the kingdom of Trans-Jordan (now Jordan) and made it inaccessible to Jews. In 1947, tired of the constant bloodletting between Arabs and Jews, the British threw in the towel and abandoned the Mandate. The UN took over. It devised a plan by which the land west of the Jordan River would be split between the Jews and the Arabs. The Jews, though with heavy heart, accepted the plan. The Arabs virulently rejected it and invaded the nascent Jewish state with the armies of five countries, so as to destroy it at its birth. Miraculously, the Jews prevailed and the State of Israel was born. When the smoke of battle cleared, Jordan was in possession of the West Bank and Egypt in possession of Gaza. They were the “occupiers” and they proceeded to kill many Jews and to drive out the rest. They systematically destroyed all Jewish holy places and all vestiges of Jewish presence. The area was “judenrein.”

In the Six-Day War of 1967, the Jews reconquered the territories. The concept that Jewish presence in Judea/Samaria is illegal and that the Jews are occupiers is bizarre. It just has been repeated so often and with such vigor that many people have come to accept it.

How about the “Palestinians,” whose patrimony this territory supposedly is and about whose olive trees and orange groves we hear endlessly? There is no such people. They are Arabs — the same people as in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and beyond. Most of them migrated into the territories and to “Israel proper,” attracted by Jewish prosperity and industry.

The concept of “Palestinians” as applied to Arabs and as a distinct nationality urgently in need of their own twenty-third Arab state, is a fairly new one; it was not invented until after 1948, when the State of Israel was founded.

But here’s a thought: How about a deal by which the “settlements” were indeed abandoned and all the Jews were to move to “Israel proper.” At the same time, all the Arabs living in Israel would be transferred to Judea/Samaria or to wherever else they wanted to go. That would indeed make Judea/Samaria “judenrein,” and what are now Arab lands in Israel would be “arabrein.” The Arabs could then live in a fully autonomous area in eastern Israel and peace, one would hope, would descend on the holy land.

For a start - this is personal for me. As a Muslim and someone who has had friends murdered by the IDF this is personal.

Once again QM I don't even know where to begin with what you say - if you are not an ignorant bigot yourself then you have been reading an awful lot of books by ignorant bigots. The website you seem to have got all your information from - http://factsandlogic.org (it should be called bigotry and propaganda) - is one of many pro-Israel, pro-militant zionism websites which attempts to rewrite history. Thankfully, although such websites have an enormous influence on American public opinion the rest of the world is not so ignorant to real history. The website you link states that its purpose is ". . . the research and publication of the facts regarding developments in the Middle East and exposing false propaganda that might harm the interests of the United States and its allies in that area of the world." In reality it attempts to suppress any historically accurate accounts of the appalling mistreatment of the Palestinians at the hands of the Israelis. It does so in order to ensure that the American public continue not to question the blind support of their government for any crimes that the Israeli government chooses to commit.

"The concept that Jewish presence in Judea/Samaria is illegal and that the Jews are occupiers is bizarre. It just has been repeated so often and with such vigor that many people have come to accept it."

Unfortunately it is the Israeli version of history which has been repeated so often and with such vigor that many Americans have come to accept it as gospel. The truth about Israel's history can be found in the writing of non-Zionist Jews like Elmer Berger, Alfred Lilienthal, Norman Finkelstein, Tanya Reinhart, Tony Judt, Benny Morris and Ilan Pappé. Also read the following famous article published by Harvard University (http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpaper.nsf/rwp/RWP06) about the power of the Israel lobby in America.

"The concept of “Palestinians” as applied to Arabs and as a distinct nationality urgently in need of their own twenty-third Arab state, is a fairly new one; it was not invented until after 1948, when the State of Israel was founded."

A myth propgated by militant zionists to undermine the Palestinian people's legitimate claim to statehood and their own lands.

I implore everyone - disregard anything QM posts on this issue. If you truly care about Israel and Palestine - make your own mind up - don't let someone else make it up for you.

QM fails on all levels of rational deduction acting as a speaker box for his right wing gods, every major commentator in the world says that for the problems in the middle east to be solved the Israeli-Palestianian issue must be solved. There is no call for the end of Isreal. Just a return to peace and acceptance of nearly 60+ UN resolutions that were blocked by the US in favor of Israel.

Furthering conflict and oppression is your only answer QM really, you don't want to see peace to you Arabs are like dogs that should all be killed, look through your own comments you have expressed this view countless times. From Iraq to Palestine your view is that they are crazed people who just seek the destruction of Israel. If that was the case Israel would have been long gone. But people want peace not a perpetual oppressive war. Yes those kids with rocks are really terrible aren't they hitting the Merkava tanks of Israel, on the news in the US all Israeli military movements are reported as being in response to attacks when its usually the other way around. The militant Zionists look down on the Palestinian people as a whole.

You know nothing of what happens in the Kennesst or the Isreal goverment as a whole, your views are based on militant zionists views that you have sided with countless times. So please lay off the Kool aid and don't post about things you have no idea about.

http://www.stopaipac.org/

You don't need to argue with qm gwaan, I don't think anyone takes heed to his copy and paste arguments. From reading your posts you come across as an inteligent person who holds no prejudice. The fact that you are a muslim destroys qm's arguments.

^ well said nickyp

Regarding "Israel´s right to exist" i recommend the following article:
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-op-makdisi11mar11,0,2601983.story?coll=la-opinion-center

German Version here:
http://www.arendt-art.de/deutsch/palestina/Stimmen_international/makdisi_saree_warum_erkennt_times_israels_existenzrecht_an.htm

And yes QM and all you others: I do know that in the US the author is heavily discredited, especially after his article above (surprise?). But regardless of what you might think of him, in my opinion it is very interesting to read, some good arguments...

ALLLLAAAA AGHBAAA ! im bord of this im going to make a nuke and kill everyone who is iratoinal and unable to coexsist with people who have difering ideas. its the only peacfull solutoin !

gwaan, why are you a muslim. go and blow yourself up

Conan: great article, I agree with everything he says and I urge others to read it!

Westy: no one here - with the exception of Quantumushroom - is advocating anything other than a peaceful solution with both nations coexisting and recognising and respecting one another. When you say "gwaan, why are you a muslim. go and blow yourself up" you are insulting me and perpetuating a simplistic and ill-informed stereotype of Muslims. If you have nothing worth while to contribute to this discussion don't bother contributing anything at all.

definatly its a total shame that sumone who can talk quite eliquantly will belive something thats foundatoin is bassed on faith alone. i probably agree with you on the israil thing anny idoit that knows annything can tell the whole thing is a mess perpetuated by varouse stubern people who belive themselfs to be right. I just think its a grate shame that you are a muslim. dont get me wrong i think pritty mutch all religoins are stupid. obvously not the philosphy and scince that is containd within religouse teachings but the stupid stuff.

"I just think its a grate shame that you are a muslim."

Another personal dig at me westy - and another worthless contribution. Why do you think it's a great shame that I'm a Muslim? Is it because you mistakenly believe that Muslims are incapable of rational thought? Is it because you mistakenly believe that all Muslims are terrorists? Being a Muslim does not mean that all of my beliefs are based on faith alone, and it does not mean that I don't question my beliefs. Historically Islam was a very flexible religion with an inherently pluralistic nature. The homogenous, unflexible, unthinking Islam so often shown in the media is not reflective of the enormous diversity of the Islamic world, its peoples, traditions and history.

Gwaan, to be honest: I don´t believe the time is worth it to discuss Islam with most of Americans, British etc. nowadays. That´s no offense towards those guys, it´s just the facts that they are presented by their media are totally spin-doctored. If an American doesn´t invest his personal time to get informed by objective sources he just has to swallow what FOX etc. presents him. And although most of the people here at Videosift seem to be informed well, there are exceptions. And i don´t blame them, i blame their 100% private TV stations, always looking for the next scandals. I believe the Average Joe gets a very "filtered" version of the world since a few years. Islam is bad, Palestinians are Terrorists etc. I´m convinced at least 90% of Americans couldn´t show the middle east reagion on a map, let alone Iran, Iraq, Gaza strip, Westbank, Kuwait etc.

Most people are afraid of things they don´t understand.

Just read the description of your 'Free Palestine' playlist, Gwaan. And i have to say: I strongly agree with you. Though in my country (as in the US) that´s a rather unpopular opinion sadly....

lol i have muslim friends and jewish and christain and im sure thay are ratoinal on most things however i think its a grate shame for annyone to belive annything on faith alone like core components of most religoins. its not a dig at you its a dig at annyone who belives annything with no evidence and evan contraveaning evidence. im sure that the muslim faith has lots of scince and deep philosiphy in it like all religoins which is why i read into them all . but thats still no resoin to belive all of a sudden in "god" ore varoise things u religoins state are fact that you just cannot know. i think its iratoinal to catagorickly belive something as a fact that canot be proven u simply have to say "its something we just dont know right now" so at the piont that annyone wants to say thay are of a specifick religoin i think its a stupid thing for them to do. the resoin i sead the blow yourself up thing is i find steroitypical and generalized comments amusing. like if sumone called me a retarded gibbon for my bad spelling it could be amusing. however if sumone is to state something like you are stupid becuse u spell bad then that is more ofensive becuse it shows thay actualy belive that mantra.

Westy, i have a hard time translating my thoughts to english. And it´s even harder for me to try and use correct grammar and spelling. I do make mistakes, i know. But at least i try to make my best. And i expect that of all those who want to have a serious discussion with me. If i had reason to believe that the way you write is the best you can do i would accept that. But i think it´s more of an image thing and as long as i´m getting headaches of reading and trying to really understand your comments i´ll just quickly fly over them. So sorry if you expect a correct response, you won´t get any as long as you don´t try as i do.

This is getting to personal anyway. As i´ve said before in other threads, i´m not here to insult anyone. Nor do i want to be insulted.

Again: I think this is a great and intelligent community. Mandatory group hug :-)

lol in short why would annyone belive something when there is no evidance of it exsisting i think thats what it comes down to. and its a core problem with man if people stop beliving things with no evidence than you would remove so manny problems. sutch as the gaza strip stuff. if you only belive things on proven evidence then you could only belive that your life is just as important as another persons and therefor would strive for human equality.

we've got to learn to live in peace, if you dont have the same beliefs as someone else dont insult them. live and let live. i'm an atheist, but i dont want to be in a world of people that all believe exactly the same thing! people should be allowed to believe what they choose to.

i just posted the full documentary, if that's cool http://www.videosift.com/video/Peace-Propaganda-the-Promised-Land