2 questions for you. Let’s see if you’re adult enough to answer, or an infant that will just shout red herrings and whataboutisms, or a sniveling coward that will ignore questions that embarrass you.

1)Remember December 2016 when you said for an absolute certainty Clinton would be charged and convicted within a year? What happened? Why was she never prosecuted at all despite republicans holding all 3 branches of federal government and the DOJ they wielded like a cudgel against their political enemies and a shield for Trump?

2)Remember how last year you knew for a certainty that disgraced Tucker Carlson had hundreds or thousands of hours of video proof that Jan 6 was a BLM and ANTIFA false flag operation, and thousands of hours of proof the Sunday school tour of congress by MAGA was 100% peaceful, not an attack at all and completely non violent, and also tons of proof that the violent attack was a false flag operation by the FBI? What happened? He has all the footage and could barely put together a 3 minute montage of people not being violent out of thousands of hours of video, never offered proof of BLM or ANTIFAs involvement, and the ridiculous fantasy FBI/Epps connection never materialized, then he dropped all accusations and never released more video. Why is that? Why has he taken the proof and abandoned your movement?

Aren’t you outraged that your own media has hidden all this proof they have and are letting MAGA go to prison while Clinton gets off Scott free?

😂

Because it couldn’t possibly be that they lied to you, could it.

Bonus- Erie Pennsylvania is refusing to let Trump hold a rally unless he pays upfront because his campaign stiffed the city for $35k for police and services he used at his last rally there, that taxpayers ended up paying! In 2020 he had stiffed cities for over $2million in unpaid bills for security he requested. Some of those other towns he stiffed are taking note. Won’t it be great if his campaign ends because he won’t pay his bills, even when MAGA hands him money to pay them!?
Also the Michigan fake elector scheme by MAGA is creating some fun accusations by those involved, from Trump being involved personally in the scheme to send fake electors with fake documents to elect him despite his knowingly losing the election to accusations the GOP copied signatures of the fake electors onto those fake sworn documents. The fake electors are facing 80 years in prison, and are scrambling to blame each other. 😂
Third bonus, Giuliani legally admitted the things he said about poll workers, accusing them of election frauds, were false by refusing to contest that they were false (because they were false). Even the liars that lied the big lies are admitting they were lying now…but I bet you still believe the lies themselves. Pretty fucking idiotic to admit you said the damaging lies about a pair of private citizens when you are on trial for libel and slander. He should try for an insanity defense, because he’s clearly been completely insane for at least 7 years.

Republican Tim Nolan, chairman of Donald Trump’s presidential campaign in Kentucky & Former Campbell County Judge, Served as a judge, school board member and city solicitor, forced 19 victims to perform sex acts, including seven who were minors under 16. Pled guilty on February 11, 2018 and was sentenced to serve 20 years in prison. https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2018/05/03/former-judge-tim-nolan-could-sentenced-today-more-drama-could-get-way/577947002/

Republican George Nader, Trump Foreign Policy Adviser, sentenced to 10 years in prison for possession of child pornography and transporting a minor into the United States for sex. https://www.courthousenews.com/child-sex-trafficker-from-trump-tower-meeting-gets-10-year-sentence/

Republican Ralph Shortey, a former Oklahoma state senator & Trump’s Oklahoma campaign chair, was indicted on four counts of human trafficking and child pornography. Pled guilty to a federal charge of child sex trafficking after hiring a 17-year-old boy for sex. Sentenced to 15 years in prison, in addition to ten years of supervised release and ordered to pay $125,000 in restitution. https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/trump-s-oklahoma-campaign-chair-plead-guilt-child-sex-trafficking-n822461

Republican Dennis Hastert, Speaker of the US House of Representatives, Illinois Congressman and one of the highest-ranking U.S. politicians to ever go to prison, molested at least four boys as young as 14 years of age when he coached wrestling at an Illinois High School. He was sentenced to 15 months in prison, two years' supervised release, and a $250,000 fine. A civil case was due back in court for a status hearing on Jan. 8, 2021 at the courthouse to further address the jury trial. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/ex-u-s-house-speaker-dennis-hastert-starts-prison-term

Republican Minnesota State Representative Jim Knoblach Drops Out Of Race After Daughter Says He Molested Her For More Than Ten Years 22 Sep 2018 https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2018/09/22/lawmaker-quits-race-after-daughter-says-he-molested-her-more-than-decade/?utm_term=.8ac8527c7f43

Republican congressman and anti-gay activist Robert Bauman was charged with having sex with a 16-year-old boy he picked up at a gay bar. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bauman

Republican Committee Chairman Jeffrey Patti was arrested for distributing a video clip of a 5-year-old girl being raped. http://www.njherald.com/article/20060510/ARTICLE/305109971

Republican Joseph Dendy, Cobb County GA Republican Party Chairman & Sunday School Teacher,was sentenced to life in prison after being convicted on four counts of child molestation, four counts of first-degree cruelty to children, three counts of enticing a child for indecent purposes, and one count each of aggravated sexual battery and aggravated child molestation. https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/former-gop-chairman-arrested-on-child-molestation-charges

Republican anti-abortion activist Howard Scott Heldreth is a convicted child rapist in Florida. https://offender.fdle.state.fl.us/offender/sops/flyer.jsf?personId=28587

Republican director of the “Young Republican Federation” Nicholas Elizondo molested his 6-year old daughter and was sentenced to six years in prison. https://bakersfieldnow.com/news/local/registered-sex-offender-keeps-custody-of-daughter

Republican Kentucky state Representative & pastor Dan Johnson, committed suicide after an exposé revealed his serial lies, suspected arson, criminal church, racism, accused rape of a teen and more. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Johnson_%28Kentucky_politician%29

Republican County Commissioner David Swartz pleaded guilty to molesting two girls under the age of 11 and was sentenced to 8 years in prison. http://www.lanternproject.org.uk/library/child-abuse-arrests-and-court-cases/child-abuse-arrests-trials-and-proceedings/ex-county-commissioner-admits-
sexual-abuse-of-girl/

Republican judge Mark Pazuhanich pleaded no contest to fondling a 10-year old girl and was sentenced to 10 years probation. http://www.poconorecord.com/article/20120426/NEWS90/204260334

Republican legislator Edison Misla Aldarondo was sentenced to 10 years in prison for raping his daughter between the ages of 9 and 17. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edison_Misla_Aldarondo

Republican Mayor Philip Giordano is serving a 37-year sentence in federal prison for sexually abusing 8 and 10-year old girls. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Giordano

Republican activist and Christian Coalition leader Beverly Russell admitted to an incestuous relationship with his step daughter. https://www.nytimes.com/1995/08/02/opinion/journal-beverly-russell-s-prayers.html

Republican activist Marty Glickman (a.k.a. “Republican Marty”), was taken into custody by Florida police on four counts of unlawful sexual activity with an underage girl https://www.arktimes.com/TheHoglawyer/archives/2007/08/28/the-latest-republican-sex-scandals-plural---more-of-the-same

Republican Senate candidate John Hathaway was accused of having sex with his 12-year old baby sitter and withdrew his candidacy after the allegations were reported in the media. https://www.nytimes.com/1996/06/06/us/politics-the-senate-maine-candidate-again-faces-1990-child-sex-accusation.html

Republican preacher Stephen White, who demanded "a return to traditional values", was sentenced to jail after offering $20 to a 14-year-old boy for permission to perform oral sex on him. http://www.thedp.com/article/2004/01/brother_stephen_convicted_of_soliciting_sex

Republican Party leader Paul Ingram pleaded guilty to six counts of raping his daughters and served 14 years in federal prison. https://culteducation.com/group/1255-false-memories/6514-man-in-notorious-sex-case-finishes-term.html

Republican election board official Kevin Coan was sentenced to two years probation for soliciting sex over the internet from a 14-year old girl. https://www.semissourian.com/story/57773.html

Republican politician Andrew Buhr was charged with two counts of first degree sodomy with a 13-year old boy. https://www.arktimes.com/TheHoglawyer/archives/2007/08/28/the-latest-republican-sex-scandals-plural---more-of-the-same

Republican politician Keith Westmoreland was arrested on seven felony counts of lewd and lascivious exhibition to girls under the age of 16 (i.e. exposing himself to children). http://www.chattanoogan.com/2002/6/21/23202/Tennessee-Legislator-Commits-Suicide.aspx

Republican County Councilman Keola Childs pleaded guilty to molesting a male child. http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2007/Oct/08/ln/hawaii710080338.html

Republican candidate Richard Gardner admitted to molesting his two daughters. https://lasvegassun.com/news/2002/oct/14/assembly-candidate-gardner-ruled-ineligible-due-to/

Republican City Councilman Fred C. Smeltzer, Jr. pleaded no contest to raping a 15 year-old girl and served 6-months in prison. https://www.wgal.com/article/council-accepts-resignation-of-member-imprisoned-for-rape/6189408

Republican activist Parker J. Bena pleaded guilty to possession of child pornography on his home computer and was sentenced to 30 months in prison http://www.salem-news.com/articles/october172007/repubscandals101707.php

Republican strategist and Citadel Military College graduate Robin Vanderwall was convicted in Virginia on five counts of soliciting sex from boys and girls over the internet. https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Robin_Vanderwall

Republican city councilman Mark Harris, described as a “good military man / church goer,” was convicted of repeatedly having sex with an 11-year-old girl and sentenced to 12 years in prison.

Republican Brandon Hixon, Idaho State Representative, resigned while under criminal investigation for molesting two girls, including a young female relative for more than 10 years, then killed himself three months later, shortly before his ex-wife and two others were to testify before a grand jury. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/brandon-hixon-former-idaho-lawmaker-facing-sex-abuse-inquiry-kills-himself/

Republican Tony Yocham, Hamilton, TX Chief of Police, was arrested by Texas Rangers on charges of continuous sexual abuse of a child. https://www.kxxv.com/news/local-news/hamilton-county-chief-of-police-arrested-for-continuous-abuse-of-a-child

Republican Nathan Larson of the Virginia House of Delegates is a self-confessed pedophile and white supremacist. Was arrested on felony charges for kidnapping, child abduction, soliciting child pornography from a minor and meeting a child for the intention of sex. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/alleged-pedophile-white-supremacist-arrested-kidnapping-12-yr-old-girl-n1251832

I got over 1,000 more repubs @bobknight33 if you realllllly wanna play. But for now lets see you do a list of Democrats LOLOLOL

Interesting, theres a pretty long story about this on an episode of Penns Sunday School, Penn seems pretty confident that he is the source of this idea. Basically the story goes like this: Penn and some other guy was having people in for an audition, and the other guy told Penn that maybe the scene would would better if the actress could "sit on up high" which penn misheard as "sit on a pie", Penn, not having slept for several weeks, thought this was so funny that in good Penn-style, he decided to hire nude models and order a bunch of pies and essential made pie-sitting-porn which he then sendt out to a bunch of show-business people on his mailing list, creating mass confusion, as he was the only one that was actually in on the joke.

I think any time an officer resigns while under investigation (a method often used to avoid reprimand, just quit and get another police job nearby), they should be barred from any law enforcement positions in the future....kind of like any priests that move when accused of diddling kids should be barred from teaching Sunday school.

I've seen that once. Might have been after one of the irish scandals, a guy holding a sign with a little kid and an old clergyman with a robe-tent approaching with his hands out like mr burns and a big grin. The thing is when it comes to paedophilia, you can't think it of anyone you think you know, so you discard images like that as silly fairy tales without thinking beyond the metaphor. You don't want to be wondering if the guy you just shook hands with gets drunk before sunday school and manipulates extra private tuition with the shy kid who doesn't have a dad and cries a lot.

Sorry to be so graphic there, but it is what it is in all its vileness, and everyone complicit ought to feel fucking ashamed of themselves. I'll stop before i derail, but the moral standards these people are hiding behind are very shady indeed, because somewhere in that chain of command someone knew and kept quiet about the institutional rape-centres the Catholics kept running for many decades. Unless they've leaned on their own faith-leaders to press for justice and HARD, their hands are dirty, and they are ridiculous to stand there shouting shame on someone else.

Man, i think i'm in love with this woman..

Rushdie actually called Stewart himself after the Cat Stevens thing and Stewart realized his mistake in inviting Yusuf Islam to the rally. Penn Jillette tells this story on one of his sunday school podcast episodes. Stewart first vigorously defended himself, then hung up, checked the facts and called Rushdie back with a full apology. Couldnt find that clip, but Rushdie mentions the incident here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThUgpNYr2Oo

I can't even recount the number of absolutely ignorant videos, conferences, and Sunday "School" classes I've attended that made an absolute mockery of science and evolution in particular.

Thanks mom. Thanks dad. Thanks America. You fucked me and now the rest of the world is here to point fingers and laugh.

Oh and while I'm at it, thanks rest of the world. My views on life have been destroyed, defeated and now I have nothing left but sadness. A job well done indeed on all sides. Dumbed down and defeated.

K

O

Cheers, Mac Gyver 'n Feliz Compleaños from choggie-Your particular panache used to season this place with something other than the smug and clever legends in their own minds could never match-Hope you and yours are well

I used to see your avatar and think to myself, "He'd make the perfect Caucasian Jesus for those pictures they have hanging-up in the Sunday School classes down to the Mormon Church."

@shinyblurry

You brought up my atheism and then started defining it. I'm telling you you're defining it wrong. It's really on you to do the minimum research and Google "weak atheism" to find the definition before telling me I'm wrong.

About the apple pie and logic. You're twisting words around and not following logic at all. According to formal logic, the logical opposite of "I believe apple pie tastes good", is, "It is not the case that I believe apple pie tastes good." A person who didn't know if apple pie tasted good would be justified in making that statement. So, it is not the case that I believe God exists.

If you really didn't know, you wouldn't believe *or* disbelieve in God. You would be neutral to the existence of God.

Not taking a firm 100% stance doesn't entail I have no opinion or guesses one way or the other. I may be suspending judgement until I feel I have sufficient evidence. My best guess is that the Biblical God doesn't exist. You still haven't given me a strong statement that I could possibly provide proof for. Find my words, quote them to me, and ask me to prove them. Don't just go claiming that I've taken a negative position.

First, you presume that all spiritual experience is a trick of the mind.

I certainly do not presume that. What I presume is that a. there are other people who have numinous experiences, b. they associate them with different religions, and c. they are just as sure they're real an accurate as you are. Do you disagree with any of those presumptions? I conclude logically from that that these people cannot all be correct in their interpretation. From that I conclude that it's possible you are one such person.

My faith isn't based on feelings, it is based on the action of God in my life. Many times I did not have the feelings, but God provided the evidence.

Could you tell me what this evidence was besides the communication in your head that told you he's controlling every atom?

God is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient, and there are certain things only He can do.

Name three things that only God can do. How do you know no other entities can do those things?

Ask Jesus to throw you a bone. Say to Him, Jesus, if you are real I will serve you. Please show me evidence that you are who you say you are. If you are sincere about serving Him, I have no doubt He will respond. He said knock and the door will open.

Been there, done that. Didn't work. Everybody in my family grew up with very strong faith. We prayed, went to church, sang in the choir, served as altar boys, did the readings, donated, attended Sunday school, received the Sacraments, studied the bible at home, and discussed the nature of God. My sister worked for a Christian organization. But none of us ever received any kind of signal that we were on the right track. Two of my sisters lost faith and left the church, then I did, then my other sister. My parents also slowed their attendance and even stopped going for a while. I've talked with them about it, and they varyingly say either they don't really believe any more, but the ritual feels good; or that it's "the right thing" to go to church. So, where was Jesus for my whole family? My parents have both given over 70 years to Jesus with not a peep back. I was faithful from birth until I noticed that I had never ever felt Jesus's presence and wondered if it was all fake. I don't remember what or how I asked, but I did ask Jesus to show himself. And that was when I actually believed in him. He didn't show himself, so I gradually lost faith, became comfortable with my lack of faith, and left the church.

>> ^cosmovitelli:

>> ^Yogi:
>> ^artician:
I'm so curious to why people reject that notion. Is it purely fear of other religions and cultures? Are that many americans actually for invading other countries? I've never encountered that state of mind before, at all. From my experience most people are pretty quick to equate War with Evil.

I have a theory that most Americans know pretty much what we're doing. The fight between the indoctrinated (both the right and the left) is actually a fight about how we should go about doing what we're doing in the world..
Democratic presidents aren't any better on war crimes than Republican presidents. They just seem to be in the business of trying to tell everyone they're being nice and when they have to do something awful it's all the other countries fault...
This is also helped along by the media who play their role well.

Exactly. Without war America goes back to the 30's - California's border closed, 400,000,000 acres of farmland turned to dust by greed and lack of regulation, stillbirths due to malnutrition, bank of America paying people (WHITE People!) 5c a day for picking lettuce and beating them in some cases to DEATH for demanding a liveable wage (it was 25c before the excess labour turned up from the dust bowl).
Then corresponding communist organisation by the workers, FBI involvent in repression via total constitutional breaches, etc etc.
Without WW2 it looked like civil war - or reduction to a slave force for big east coast finance. Then the massive battle fleet parked off the coast of Japan mysteriously provoked an attack - and whammo - a job for everyone, a new massive industry (still what America spends half of all it's money on to this day), and a border extended effectively all the way around the globe, allowing the cycle to start again except on a much bigger stage.
What happens now when the organisms reach the edge of the petri dish? Well, better stick some of that annual $1 trillion into FTL research cos we're going to need a new planet.
The choice - face up to it, or shout boo at anyone who tries to tell you the truth.


Welcome to the world of bullshit for people who only speak and know bullshit -- that's everyone, FYI. And it's going to be that way for all of time, whether it's at the workplace of 2012, politics in 3012, or Sunday school at the Grand Cabal's Science Center for Observable Theological Theory in the year 100,012. I already have FTL drives and I keep em powered up wherever I go.

I'm not at all a scholar of the bible. I've read parts, I've been to
Sunday school before i was confirmed (age 14) and I have at times had
fun reading it.

Well, I would encourage you to try to understand it. Every conversation I've ever had with an atheist about the bible either brings up the same five things from the old testament or their doubts about who wrote the bible..and that's it. I've never actually spoken to an atheist, and I've spoken to many atheists, who even understood the basics. I think that if you're going to criticize something, you should at least try to understand it at a basic level..maybe that's just me. Although, the lack of understanding matches what the bible says, that the truth is spiritually discerned. Without the Holy Spirit, the atheist is going to find it fairly impossible to comprehend.

Arguing from authority is not a strong argument. Just because "the
intellectual scholarship" is much greater than I understand, doesn't
change what the book says. And since new evidence is not uncovered, it
is what it is, you are forced to "interpret new evidence" and that's
not the way the world works.

What you, and many others try to imply, is that what is the bible is simplistic, and for people without any intellectual standards. The truth is that what is in the bible is complex, and it takes a real intellect (supplanted with godly wisdom) to be able to understand it. The intellectual scholarship is vast because the bible is inexaustible. It functions as a cogent whole, and address all the deep questions that human beings have. It is not simple by any stretch of the imagination.

1) Personal evidence cannot be verified. What things were revealed to
you before you ever read or understood them? How were they revealed,
what was revealed, how did you later understand them / where did you
read them?

I would like to understand your thought process, which is why I ask.

Is it possible that you already had a forgone conclusion when you read
X, and therefore you interpreted X the way you wanted?

God had revealed to me through signs that He is a triune God, and that He has a Messiah, someone whose job it is to save the world. So when I finally read the bible, those signs are what initially confirmed it to be true. I didn't have any foregone conclusions about the bible before I read it. I had no actual idea what Christianity was all about.

What happened? How has your life improved, what did you do before,
what do you do now? How can you tell that it happened supernaturally?
Is there any difference from that to just having a profound change of
heart. If you are talking about addiction, it is possible to fill the
void of that addiction with other things - some people exchange
cigarettes with food, why not religion/faith? Does your faith take up
as much of your time as "the unhealthy things" you did before?

Before I became a Christian I was a theist, and before I was a theist I was an agnostic. When I became a theist my bad behavior didn't change. I was like Enoch, in that I believed that none of the religions were true, or that all of them just had pieces of who God is. I believed in a God that loved you the way you are and didn't particularly enforce any kind of behavior upon you, as long as your heart was in the right place. I would think that God, knowing me intimately, and knowing my good intentions, was very understanding if I did something which was out of line. Of course God is very patient with all of us, but the point is that I had plenty of faith in God at the time, and spent my time thinking about Him and pursuing the truth. The difference is that once I accepted Jesus into my heart as my Lord and Savior, everything changed.

It was only when I became a Christian that my behavior changed, and much of that practically overnight. When you're born again, you are spiritually cleansed and start out with a blank slate. You become like new. I had addictions, depression, anger, pain, sadness, and other issues that left me in short order. Some of those things I never thought I would give up, some of them I never wanted to give up, but I immediately lost the desire for them. It was a change of heart; God gave me a new one. It was supernatural because as I said, I didn't do any work. People spend their entire lives in therapy or counseling and spend tens of thousands of dollars or more to get rid of just some of these problems, and often don't see any results. I lost almost all of my baggage in just a few short months.

3) Not really. It only accounts for a visual interpretation of how men act. The writers of it has observed how people act and guessed at reasons why that is. Some are close to reality, some are way off. Which human behaviors does it predict? How and where does it describe in finite detail how those behaviors are created? I'm looking for actual citations here, because this is complete news to me.

It predicts all kinds of human behaviors by describing the mechanisms which motivate them to act. It shows the fundemental dichotomy of the heart of man. As an example:

James 3:3-10

When we put bits into the mouths of horses to make them obey us, we can turn the whole animal. Or take ships as an example. Although they are so large and are driven by strong winds, they are steered by a very small rudder wherever the pilot wants to go. Likewise the tongue is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts. Consider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark. The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.

All kinds of animals, birds, reptiles and creatures of the sea are being tamed and have been tamed by man, but no man can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison.

With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God’s likeness. Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be. Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring? My brothers, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.

and

Matthew 12:34

O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

and

Matthew 15:19-20

But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

4) I disagree. It describes a point of view. The morality of the God of the bible is hardly any good morality. We have an ingrown moral compass, I can agree on that, it's been naturally selected against because it helped our ancestors to survive and procreate. "His moral law" is atrocious, if the bible is any indicator.

If everyone followed the morality that Jesus taught us, this planet would be as close to a utopia it could possibly get. He taught us to love one another, to forgive as a rule, to do good to even those who hate you, to help everyone in need, and to follow the moral law. Your idea of Gods morality being atrocious is plainly false. The passages that you feel are atrocious have an explanation, its just whether you want to hear them or not. As far as natural selection goes, all it cares about is passing on its genes. That is the only criteria for success. This doesn't explain noble behavior in the least, such as sacrificing your life for someone else. That's a bad way to pass on your genes.

5) Which prophecies have been fulfilled? You don't think Israel chose their currency based on the bible instead? Which captivities have been prophecied down to the year and where in the bible?

http://www.khouse.org/articles/2004/552/


6) This is hardly uncontested. There are parts of the bible that seem to be true, but because some of it is true, does not mean that all of it is. http://www.theskepticalreview.com/tsrmag/982front.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_history#Historical_accuracy_of_biblical_stories

It's positive evidence in the bibles favor when it is verified by archaelogical evidence. There are many things in the bible that historians denied were true in the bible, like the hittite civilization, until archaelogy proved the bible correct.

7) Citation needed. Saying that the universe has a beginning is hardly proof of anything. That's the easy way to say it, anyone apart from earlier theories said that, so of course they did it in there too. In actuality the bible claims that God is eternal, which there is no basis for.

These claims are just claims, there is no basis for saying them in the bible. Blood clotting could be found by trial and error back then, ocean currents can to a great extent be measured by fishermen even back then. Scientists who believed in an eternal universe have since changed their mind, when evidence discredited the theory. It's all about being able to back up your claims. the bible just claims.

This guy discovered and mapped the ocean currents, and he did so being inspired by psalm 8, which is the one that mentions the "paths of the seas"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Fontaine_Maury

Abraham didn't learn from trial and error. They were doing circumcisions on the 8th day from the beginning.

You must think something is eternal, unless you believe something came from nothing. So your problem isn't really with eternal things, just an eternal person.

Here is a list of them

http://www.inplainsite.org/html/scientific_facts_in_the_bible.html

8 ) How did you experience the holy spirit?

It's really impossible quite impossible to describe since it effects every level of your being at the same time, but experientially you could say it's like going from 110 to 220v. It's like you lived all your life being covered in filth and suddenly you're washed off and sparkling clean. It's like being remade into something brand new.

>> ^gwiz665

@shinyblurry Thank you for posting your reasons for believing the Bible to be credible. It is refreshing to have someone properly lay out their case instead of the normal circular reasoning I normally hear (God is real because the bible says it, the bible is true because God wrote it).

I'm not at all a scholar of the bible. I've read parts, I've been to Sunday school before i was confirmed (age 14) and I have at times had fun reading it.

Arguing from authority is not a strong argument. Just because "the intellectual scholarship" is much greater than I understand, doesn't change what the book says. And since new evidence is not uncovered, it is what it is, you are forced to "interpret new evidence" and that's not the way the world works.

1) Personal evidence cannot be verified. What things were revealed to you before you ever read or understood them? How were they revealed, what was revealed, how did you later understand them / where did you read them?

I would like to understand your thought process, which is why I ask.

Is it possible that you already had a forgone conclusion when you read X, and therefore you interpreted X the way you wanted?

2) What happened? How has your life improved, what did you do before, what do you do now? How can you tell that it happened supernaturally? Is there any difference from that to just having a profound change of heart. If you are talking about addiction, it is possible to fill the void of that addiction with other things - some people exchange cigarettes with food, why not religion/faith? Does your faith take up as much of your time as "the unhealthy things" you did before?

3) Not really. It only accounts for a visual interpretation of how men act. The writers of it has observed how people act and guessed at reasons why that is. Some are close to reality, some are way off. Which human behaviors does it predict? How and where does it describe in finite detail how those behaviors are created? I'm looking for actual citations here, because this is complete news to me.

4) I disagree. It describes a point of view. The morality of the God of the bible is hardly any good morality. We have an ingrown moral compass, I can agree on that, it's been naturally selected against because it helped our ancestors to survive and procreate. "His moral law" is atrocious, if the bible is any indicator.

5) Which prophecies have been fulfilled? You don't think Israel chose their currency based on the bible instead? Which captivities have been prophecied down to the year and where in the bible?

6) This is hardly uncontested. There are parts of the bible that seem to be true, but because some of it is true, does not mean that all of it is. http://www.theskepticalreview.com/tsrmag/982front.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_history#Historical_accuracy_of_biblical_stories

7) Citation needed. Saying that the universe has a beginning is hardly proof of anything. That's the easy way to say it, anyone apart from earlier theories said that, so of course they did it in there too. In actuality the bible claims that God is eternal, which there is no basis for.
These claims are just claims, there is no basis for saying them in the bible. Blood clotting could be found by trial and error back then, ocean currents can to a great extent be measured by fishermen even back then. Scientists who believed in an eternal universe have since changed their mind, when evidence discredited the theory. It's all about being able to back up your claims. the bible just claims.

8 ) How did you experience the holy spirit?

I think your have veiled your eyes more than I do.


Yea, I tell you, if you do not have an orange aura, you will never understand the complexities of the universe.

At that time of my life I already had. It was the persistent lack of response that first got me to doubt it all. If there is a God, he's got a hell of a way of treating children.

I hear this all the time from people who walk away from God. Usually, it is one of three things..either some tragedy happens which throws their faith into doubt, or, it is because God didn't grant them what they wanted or didn't provide them signs to prove He exists.

Now, if one does read the word of God and follow it, it is fairly clear that there is no promise of a pain free life, one that is free from loss. In fact, it states precisely the opposite, that trials and persecutions will come, that we should expect them, and that they are to our benefit:

1 Peter

4:12 Beloved, don't be astonished at the fiery trial which has come upon you,
to test you, as though a strange thing happened to you.
4:13 But because you are partakers of Christ's sufferings, rejoice;
that at the revelation of his glory also you may rejoice with exceeding joy.

Romans 5:3-5

Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

This is what Jesus said about signs:

Matthew 16:4

An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah.” So he left them and departed.

If you had faith in Jesus, and that what He said is truth, you wouldn't fail to notice the hand of God in your life. It is still there, though you do not see it. The reason you do not see it is because you refuse to budge:

Hebrews 11:6

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

and again:

James 4:8

Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

You want God to demonstrate His love, which He is always doing for you (which is plainly obvious each and every day if you could only see it), but what He wants is for you to demonstrate yours.

And as far as prayers go, He doesn't answer all prayers. Did He answer this prayer?:

Luke 22:42

"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

Do you notice how Jesus prays? "yet not my will, but yours be done"? We don't know what we need, and much of what we ask for are things that are contrary to the Fathers will and planning. If there was ever a prayer He would have wanted to grant, it would be this one, yet if He had, then all would be dead in their sins. His plan was better, and Jesus allowed for it, as we should if we don't receive what we wanted.

The end truth is this:

John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

To abide is His love is to submit to His Lordship. Notice the last part...

I read most of that site, at least I think I did. It's easy to get lost in the layout. I also watched several of the videos. I think you, and proselytizers in general, have this impression that non-believers are such only because they've never heard the story before. I've heard all of this hundreds and hundreds of times. I was raised with it. I heard it in Sunday school and at mass. I hear it at funerals. People knock on my door at 7am to tell me. Even the people who adopted my cat when I had to give him up took 20 minutes to tell me about Jesus.

You can read something a hundred times and never understand it..and I don't think you do from what you have shared with me thus far. It's good that you remain open-minded; I appreciate that about you.

I get that they (and presumably, you) think you are doing a good thing, but saying the same thing over and over does not make progress. I cannot take things, especially such fantastic things, on such weak evidence. No matter how many people believe, it's not proof. No number of anecdotes will convince me that a man was resurrected and, even if he was, it would still not prove there was a God. It would only be something without a definite explanation.

I'm doing what the Lord told me to do, and because I care, and in the end all I will be able to say is that I am an unworthy servant who (hopefully) did his duty.


The resurrection is proof that every word He said is true, as it is when you receive the Holy Spirit. When I first met you, I perceived a spirit about you, and I imagined that perhaps you were some kind of pagan. When I found out you were agnostic it occured to me that perhaps you were an ex-Christian. Now, that I know I can see that you do have the Holy Spirit with you, but that the light has been dimmed to almost nothing. So, the sad irony is that God already gave you your proof but you are completely oblivious to it.

As for the Penn Jillette video you mention at needhim.org, you're right, it's a nice story. I think you could learn something from the man that story is about. It's highly unlikely that you will ever convert anyone here but at the very least you'd be less despised if you weren't so angry and obnoxious all the time. You get more flies with honey than shit.

I cannot convert anyone, that is the work of the Holy Spirit. And I have been despised since the moment I came here and opened my mouth. Yes, I have said stupid things more than a few times, but I am only human. This has more to do with prejudice than anything else, and some people have recognized that and spoken out about it.
>> ^xxovercastxx:
>> ^shinyblurry:
If He showed up, would you give your life over to Him? I don't know if God is answering half-hearted prayers..
.

>> ^shinyblurry:

If He showed up, would you give your life over to Him? I don't know if God is answering half-hearted prayers..
You might also try to find out more about it.. http://www.needhim.org/ ..there is a good penn jillette video there

At that time of my life I already had. It was the persistent lack of response that first got me to doubt it all. If there is a God, he's got a hell of a way of treating children.

I read most of that site, at least I think I did. It's easy to get lost in the layout. I also watched several of the videos. I think you, and proselytizers in general, have this impression that non-believers are such only because they've never heard the story before. I've heard all of this hundreds and hundreds of times. I was raised with it. I heard it in Sunday school and at mass. I hear it at funerals. People knock on my door at 7am to tell me. Even the people who adopted my cat when I had to give him up took 20 minutes to tell me about Jesus.

I get that they (and presumably, you) think you are doing a good thing, but saying the same thing over and over does not make progress. I cannot take things, especially such fantastic things, on such weak evidence. No matter how many people believe, it's not proof. No number of anecdotes will convince me that a man was resurrected and, even if he was, it would still not prove there was a God. It would only be something without a definite explanation.

As for the Penn Jillette video you mention at needhim.org, you're right, it's a nice story. I think you could learn something from the man that story is about. It's highly unlikely that you will ever convert anyone here but at the very least you'd be less despised if you weren't so angry and obnoxious all the time. You get more flies with honey than shit.