@bcglorf

i don't think using @drradon 's example of anarchy a good use as a rebuttal.

now may be larken rose's vision is an extreme example,taken from the von mises institute,and where they dreamily offer a counter to police with a "non-aggression principle".while cute and adorable,humans tend to be far more vicious and violent in nature,especially when desperate.

but again,i think our respective approaches to authority will not find common ground here.

i do not seek a leader,but i am ok with a representative,though i do not seem to have any in my government at the moment.

i find it curious,amazing and not a little disturbing just how easily people will quietly,and tacitly accept a police that has become more and more draconian,violent and aggressive while SIMULTANEOUSLY decreasing the citizens rights to protect themselves,defend themselves and resist unlawful police practices.

because they simply change the law to make what WAS illegal...legal.with a stroke of a pen.

and i simply cannot respect when an american says,without any sense of justice or history,to just sit down,shut up and do what you are told.

while claiming they are a patriot,waving their american flag made in china.

the history of law enforcement in this country reveals that their main job,their main focus and duty is NOT to the poor,the dispossessed or the marginalized.

the police's job is to protect those who hold assets,who have money and wield political power.

and before you say anything,i am quite aware that there are some,and they are the majority,who do their job with honor and distinction.my argument is not about singular police officers but rather the systematic problems inherent in the system.

lets take my city for example.
i am blessed enough to live adjacent to a very wealthy and influential housing development.

average police response time?=7 minutes.

right down the street,not 10 miles down the road,is a depressed area of town.industry and manufacturing abandoned that area 20 years ago.it is stricken with prostitution,heroin addicts and abject poverty.

average police response time?=22 minutes

yet the main police station is in THAT area.

or should i bring up the history of american labor movement?
where the coal miners in west virginia decided to strike,and because the owners of the mines were politically connected.the governor sent in the state police to...and this should send chills down your spine...shoot any miners unwilling to go back to work.

and they did.
they murdered any coal miner still willing to stand up against the owners of the mine,and this included women and children.

now lets examine that for a minute.
workers for a coal mine decided to strike for better working conditions (which were horrible) and actually have a day off,besides sunday (because:god).

the owner of the mine,who was losing immense of amount of money due to zero production of coal,called the governor to have the state police,a civil institution,sent in to put those people down.to force them to either get back to work or face violence.

*now the owner brought in his own mercenary group to assist in the process of intimidation,strong arm tactics and violence.

i will add one more story that is personal,and comes from my own family,and may possibly explain my attitude towards police in general.

my father was born in 1930,in alton illinois.
now that small town had been hit particularly hard during the depression.my father spoke of not having indoor plumbing until he went into the navy,and how the floors in his childhood home were simple boards over dirt.

he grew up extremely poor,and my grandfather struggled to find steady work,and i gather from what my father told me.my grandpa made bootleg beer out of the bathtub.so he and his 6 brothers and 1 sister had to bathe in the mississippi river while grandpa tried to make money by selling illegal hooch.

my father also regaled me with stories of the chores he had as the youngest of 8 kids.it was his job every morning to head to the train tracks and pick the coal that dropped from the coal carts.(which he admitted to being lazy and stole directly from the very full coal cart itself while his brother kept an eye out for the station master).

my point is that my father grew up in desperate and poor times.

but one story always stood out,and i think it is because it has a wild west feel to it that always transfixed me,and i made him tell me the story over and over as a child.

when times are tough,people will do whatever they have to in order to survive,so my grandfather making illegal hooch was not the only illegalities being played out in that small town.neighbor upon neighbor did what they had to,and most were considered criminals in the eyes of the state.

so i guess one of my grandpa's friends was on the run from the law,and sought refuge at my grandpa's home.which he allowed,because neighbors take care of neighbors,at least they used to.

well,in a small town everybody knows everybody,and eventually three police officers showed up at my grandpa's house,and demanded that he turn over (i forgot the guys name).

and i remember the pride on my fathers face whenever he retold this story....

my grandfather stood tall on the top of his stairs facing his front door,holding his gun he was given during WW1 and told the police officers (which he knew.small town remember?),that if they took one step into his home..he would blow their heads off.

now this is a story retold from a childs perspective many years later.i am sure my fathers memory was a tad....biased..but i would bet the meaty parts were accurate.

now my question is this:
how would that exact same scenario play out in todays climate?

well,we would see on the 6 o'clock news how a family was tragically shot to death for harboring a criminal and that the police had done EVERYTHING in their power to avoid this kind of violence.

i know this is long,and i hope i didn't lose you along the way,but i think we should not dismiss the very real slow decent into a society that silently obeys,quietly accepts more and more authoritarian powers all in the name of "safety",and that any form of resistance is to be viewed as "criminal" and "troublesome".

so while i agree that "when should we shoot a cop" should be in the realm of:let us try to never do that.

i also cannot agree to placing cops on a hero platform as if their job is somehow sacrosanct and beyond reproach.they are human beings,of limited intellect,whose main job it is to protect those who own property,have wealth and wield political power.

and with the current disparity and blatant inequality their job has been more and more focused on keeping those 30% undesirables down.

the poor,the destitute,the marginalized,the addict and the junkie and the petty criminals.

those are a threat to the "better" citizens.they are a blight on a community that should be cleansed from the tender eyes of those who are deemed more "worthy".

rich folk may wring their hands,and lament the plight of the poor and wretched,but for GOD's sakes! they don't want to actually SEE them!

so a police officer can do all the mental gymnastics they want in order to justify their place in society,but at the end of the day,they serve the elites.

and they always have.

I'd like to enter this video into evidence to support my extreme introvert lifestyle. Frequently, people in the meaty center or extreme extrovert side of the bell curve question how I can possibly be happy and fulfilled staying home all the time.

Why don't I get out more? THIS is why.

...and if boneremakes no troll, then come back and answer on-points?? Or better yet, private message me for a meaty discussion?

"People will come to love their oppression, to adore the technologies that undo their capacities to think." -A.Huxley

He read, from an ex-pat cafe in Morocco, undoing his capacity to think with a ball of hashish the size of of a pocket watch-

@19:00 some great excerpts from a talk from John Trudell. Meaty!

*promote *audio ... meaty for a duo. Sounds like a little touch of cajun in there as well

So let's sum up your post quickly...

-The ASPCA is wrong because you know better.
-I'm a bad parent because I won't wrap my son in bubble wrap and hide him from a world that is inherently risky.
-By saying "force the dog to give up the bone" you assume that I'm mistreating it (using force) rather than teaching the dog to leave something (like a chew toy) then migrating that lesson to something it really doesn't want to give up like a meaty bone. Similarly, transfer of higher standing in the pack is not hard and does not require cruelty.
-You won't provide any supporting information apart from citing numerous anecdotal testimonies, which you also won't provide.
-Ban them because everyone else does (because humans never make knee jerk decisions based on headlines rather than science)

Your post is littered with ignorant and arrogant assumption and presumption. You're not interested in backing up your claims with any actual evidence and seem more interested in snide little ad hominem attacks. As I said, it's ironic that the person arguing against dangerous breeds is less well behaved then a member of the breed in question...

Your belief that the breed should be banned might have the slightest bit of credibility if you were able to muster up the civility to act with common courtesy.

1. The pup would be what we Australian's lovingly refer to as "a little battler" (typically someone who is deficient in some way but gives it their all).

2. Pit's can be as vicious or as gentle as you make them. The reason they make great fighting dogs is because they are almost undying in their loyalty to their master. They can be treated far harsher than most other dogs, who would either turn or break, and so can be trained to reach heights of viciousness other breeds can't hope to match. This obviously involves a lot of cruelty and it's something I abhor particularly, considering just how loving this breed can be.

3. Our half pit has only snapped at me once (during bone training, where I would force her to surrender a meaty treat frequently to establish dominance so that if someone came close to her while she had one, she wouldn't snap at them). My wife had half her face mauled by a shepherd when she was young even though the thing had always been completely docile. My son was bitten by his great grand fathers yippy mini dog who we had to chain up because it kept coming at him. My aunty had a horse who was so gentle blind kids rode it who tried to kick and bite me... What does this prove? Abso-fucking-lutely nothing, dogs are animals and animals may turn, often without an obvious reason why. It's part and parcel of owning pets, acknowledging there is a risk.

4. People who can't watch a harmless video about a puppy (typically videosift gold) without bitching about dog breeds really need to watch the video again and appreciate teh funneh...

Well. I mean it is kinda hot when she sticks it all the way out. But, someone has gotta tell her to keep her tongue straight, otherwise l bet kissing that meaty appendage is like sucking on a slimy dick muffin.

So what if you recorded a video of your mouth gorging on a big meaty sausage...

@hpqp
Good points, all.
However, the "cognition is sacred" (as opposed to "human life is sacred") viewpoint has a hole in it about the size of human consciousness. (Oh man, tangent time!) Some loudly proclaim the presence of a divine soul or spirit, but there is certainly something else there, aside from the physical form.
Obviously, human (and for that matter animal) experience and behavior is influenced by the physical brain and its processes. Damage to it predictably and reproducibly changes behavior and perception. As much as some of us would like to think otherwise, the physical structure and function of the brain influences who we are and what we do as individuals. I would honestly have no problem accepting that the physical universe as we've modeled it functions precisely as it has, autonomously. (Right down to fruitless debates between individuals on the Internet.) Evolution is a real thing. The brain has developed as yet another beneficial mutation that promotes the propagation of its host organism. Input in, behavior out, feedback loop. Click click click, ding.
But the problem is that we experience this. Somehow this mass of individual cells (and below that individual molecules, atoms, quarks) experiences itself in a unified manner, or rather something experiences this mass of matter in a unified manner. No matter how far down you track it, there's no physical accommodation for consciousness. To give a specific example, the cells in the eye detect light (intensity and wavelength) by electrochemical stimulation. The binary "yes\no" of stimulation is routed through the thalamus in individual axons, physically separated in space, to the visual cortex, where it's propagated and multiplied through a matrix of connections, but all individual cells, and all just ticking on and off based on chemical and electrical thresholds. The visual field is essentially painted as a physical map across a region of the brain, but somehow, the entire image is experienced at once. Cognition is necessarily distinct from consciousness.

What this means, practically, is that we must attribute value to cognition and consciousness separately.
Cognition may not be completely understood, but we can explain it in increasingly specific terms, and it seems that we'll be able to unravel how the brain works within the current model. It absolutely has a value. We consider a person who is "a vegetable" to have little to no current or expected quality of life, and generally are comfortable making the decision to "pull the plug".
Consciousness, however, is what we believe makes us special in the universe, despite being completely empty from a theoretical standpoint. If sensory input, memory, and behavioral responses are strictly a function of the material, then stripped of those our "unified experience" is completely undetectable\untestable. We have no way of knowing if our neighbor is a meaty automaton or a conscious being, but we assume. Which is precisely why it's special. It's obviously extra-physical. Perhaps @gorillaman's tomatobaby (that is, the newborn which he says is without Mind) has a consciousness, but it isn't obvious because the physical structure is insufficient for meaningful manifestation. I have difficulty accepting that consciousness, empty though it is on its own, is without value. "So what," though, right? If you can't detect it in anyone but yourself, what use is it in this discussion? Clearly, there IS something about the structure or function of the brain that's conducive to consciousness. We are only conscious of what the brain is conscious of and what it has conceived of within its bounds. So the brain at least is important, but it's not the whole point.
Anyway, there's that tangent.

The "stream of potential life" argument has its limits. Any given sperm or egg is exceedingly unlikely to develop into a human. For a single fertilized egg, the odds shift dramatically. That's why people seek abortions, because if they don't do something, they're probably going to have a baby. The probability of "brewin' a human" is pretty good once you're actually pregnant. The "potential for human life" is very high, which is why you can even make the quality of life argument.

Obviously, you realize how those on the anti-abortion side of the debate react when someone who is...let's say abortion-tolerant ("pro-abortion" overstates it for just about anyone, I suspect) says that they're considering the "quality of life" of the prospective child in their calculus. They get this mental image: "Your mother and I think you'll both be better off this way, trust me. *sound of a meatball in a blender*"
I appreciate that we're trying to minimize suffering in the world and promote goodness, but I think it's over-reaching to paint every potential abortion (or even most) as a tragic tale of suffering simply because the parent wasn't expecting parenthood. Quality of life is much more nuanced. Many wonderful humans have risen from squalor and suffering and will tell you earnestly they believe that background made them stronger\wiser\more empathetic\special. Many parents who were devastated to learn they were pregnant love their unexpected children. And holy crap, kids with Downs, man. What's the quality of life for them and their parents? Terribly challenging and terribly rewarding.
No, I'm not trying to paint rainbows over economic hardship and child abuse and say that "everything's going to be finnnnneeee", but quality of life is a personal decision and it's unpredictable. Isn't that what "It Gets Better" is all about? "Things may seem grim and terrible now, but don't kill yourself just yet, you're going to miss out on some awesome stuff."

Hrm. Thus far we've really been framing abortion as being about "unready" parents, probably because the discussion started on the "mother can choose to have sex" angle.
You've got to wonder how confused this issue would get if we could detect genetically if a fetus might be homosexual. Would Christians loosen their intolerance for abortion if it meant not having a "gay baby"? (Even if it would fly in the face of their belief that homosexuality is a choice.) Would pro-choicer's take a second look at the availability of abortion? Would it still be "one of those terrible things that happens in a free society"?

On western aid, you're spot on. It's so easy to throw money at a problem and pretend we're helping. Humanitarian aid does nothing if we're not promoting and facilitating self-sufficiency. Some people just need a little help getting by until they're back on their feet, but some communities need a jump-start. As you say, they need practical education. I've only been on handful of humanitarian missions myself, so I give more financially than I do of my sweat, but I'm careful to evaluate HOW the organizations I give to use the funds. Are they just shipping food or are they teaching people how to live for themselves and providing the resources to get started? Sure, some giving is necessary. It's impossible for someone to think about sustainable farming and simple industry if they're dying from cholera or starving to death.

No sweat bro..take your time. I always appreciate the substantive discourse that you bring to the table. I also appreciate that life is often pulling us in many different directions and so setting aside a slice of time to do justice to topics like these can be problematic. I'm often in the same bind which is why it took me a week or so to reply to your original post.

>> ^messenger:

@shinyblurry
I've started answering you, and it's turning into another meaty essay, which may come in the next few days. I can summarize it that I 98% accept the first two paragraphs of your description of the implications of accepting meaninglessness as fact, almost as words from my own mouth.
I didn't explain what I meant by "bliss" well enough earlier, and that's what I'm hacking away at now.
I also realize I owe you a few replies from comment threads gone by a couple months ago when my life was busy. Haven't forgotten.

@shinyblurry

I've started answering you, and it's turning into another meaty essay, which may come in the next few days. I can summarize it that I 98% accept the first two paragraphs of your description of the implications of accepting meaninglessness as fact, almost as words from my own mouth.

I didn't explain what I meant by "bliss" well enough earlier, and that's what I'm hacking away at now.

I also realize I owe you a few replies from comment threads gone by a couple months ago when my life was busy. Haven't forgotten.

Conversing about non gay subject matter whilst stuffing juicy, meaty meat sticks in your mouth and then wiping spoogy white sauce from the lips to continue a non gay conversation is clearly NOT GAY.

Highlights how innocent-minded the Chinese are and how sexually corrupt they aren't.

There was a time when many Americans had such innocence, but now I'd defy you to find a teenager who wouldn't immediately recognize what that meaty mushroom really is.

I worry often and a lot about how I can possibly keep my sons from being perverted by this society.

There are so many comedy gold quotes from those poor folks in there.

"...we dug out this meaty object."

"Not sure what it is, but it has a nose and eyes."

"...it has something that looks like lips..."

"a small hole that goes through to the other side."

Money shot @ 0:54

"...it is very smooth. Giving the feeling of a type of meat."