>> ^gtjwkq:
I guess social liberals are more likely to fear the ficticious evil of big companies than the actual evil of big governments.


Fictitious? What fuckin' world have -you- been living in?

Union Carbide, Blackwater, Monsanto, Big Tobacco, Enron, Worldcom...just to name a few of the bigger evildoers out there. There are, of course, literally thousands of other examples.

It's hard to say that they 'allowed' the economic crisis to occur, there was a real sense that nothing could go wrong and that the banks basically learnt how to eliminate risk. There was a huge feeling of invincibility.

Did they let the banks do whatever they please through mass deregulation in the financial markets in much the same way Enron was allowed to play with the energy market in California?

Yes.

Memorare, you took my quote completely out of context. I was responding to the allegation that the towers were brought down because of a potentially costly asbestos clean up coupled with a cover up of investigations of Enron, WorldCom and DoD. I don't deny that evil people will make war for financial and political gains, I just don't think this event was perpetrated by our government or was allowed to happen through inaction.

Just so I'm clear about what you are implying: the WTC and surrounding buildings were brought down by loaded passenger jets because of costly asbestos issues in combination with a cover up of the Enron and WorldCom investigations, and part of the Pentagon was destroyed to hide an internal DoD investigation. What about the plance crash in PA? Just theatrics to make it all seem reasonable?

Do you really believe that there are people in this world that are so evil that they believe they are justified in making this happen at the cost of thousands of lives, and who would actually go through with it? And do you really believe that the people that helped said evil people are so loyal that none of them have come forward with evidence in the 8 years since? These are evil people you are talking about, corrupted and driven only by money and power, so why hasn't anyone of the thousands of required to make this plan happen come forward and written a book or given interviews that would earn them millions in fees? How many conspiracies of government have ever gone on without at least one person speaking up and bringing things to light?

You must live in a sad, fucked up little world if you really believe any of this.

Some things to consider:

The towers had asbestos issues.

The insurance companies were held not liable in a prior to 911 court case for the asbestos removal, people don't realize sections of those towers were to become uninhabitable very shortly for being uninsurable.

Can you imagine the symbol of power to the world in NYC being a uninhabitable empty building?

The office that got hit in the Pentagon was the same office where they were conducting the investigation into the 2.3 trillion missing from the defense department that Rumsfeld announced on Sept 10... no more investigation.

Cheney had bought Dresser Industries in 1998 and that made Halliburton responsible for their asbestos abatement.

Halliburton Pays Dearly but Finally Escapes Cheney's Asbestos Mess

The World Trade Center was also a huge asbestos liability and realistically held very little value due to the overwhelming costs associated with the removal of said asbestos. It's funny how it all ties together, isn't it? http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/003500.php

It was well-known by the city of New York that the WTC was an asbestos bombshell. For years, the Port Authority treated the building like an aging dinosaur, attempting on several occasions to get permits to demolish the building for liability reasons, but being turned down due the known asbestos problem. Further, it was well-known the only reason the building was still standing until 9/11 was because it was too costly to disassemble the twin towers floor by floor since the Port Authority was prohibited legally from demolishing the buildings.

The projected cost to disassemble the towers: $15 Billion. Just the scaffolding for the operation was estimated at $2.4 Billion!

In other words, the Twin Towers were condemned structures. How convenient that an unexpected “terrorist” attack demolished the buildings completely.

WTC Building 7 was a part of the WTC complex, and covered under the same insurance policy. This 47-storey steel-framed structure, which was NOT struck by an aircraft, mysteriously collapsed 8 hours later that same day into its own footprint at freefall speed — exactly in the manner of the Twin Towers.

Halliburton was legally responsible for the WTC's asbestos problems. It would have been fought out in court but Halliburton might lose. They couldn't do a controlled demolition because of the asbestos. Of all the buildings in NYC, this one was the one whose demolition would be most advantageous for the vice president of the United States. And the first responders paid the price, on 911 and later.

To add to the convenience, Silverstein had the towers insured against terrorist attacks so that not only would he get to stop paying for the lease, he would even get most of his down payment back.

He also claimed entitlement to be paid the 3.6 billion insurance sum twice, arguing that the towers were destroyed in two separate attacks. This resulted in a long court battle and resulted in him eventually collecting his billions.

In short, privatizing the lease of the property and making sure all physical evidence was quickly destroyed by recycling the steel allowed Silverstein to collect on the insurance policy instead of having to go through lengthy forensic analysis over who or what really knocked down the towers.

It doesn't prove a conspiracy but is again one of those important coincidences to take place for the whole thing to play out plausibly.

As for building 7, lets keep in mind that all paperwork for SEC investigation of ENRON and WorldCom were destroyed in its collapse, and the cases had to be abandoned. How much that was worth personally or in cold hard cash is up to anyone's guess.

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/wtc_payment.html http://www.freewebs.com/inside-man/

It is cyclical, but who times the cycles?

The poor don't do it. The poor did nothing wrong regarding this.

Enron robbed California blind, and nothing was really done about it.

Arthur Anderson, Bear Sterns (short sold), Bernie Madoff who could not have stolen all of that money by himself.

We are not seeing an aberration of the system.

We are witnessing the essence of the system.

Why are you assuming that I only feel this way about the government? I feel the exact same way about the criminally wealthy. Enron executives who steal money are no less sleazy than government officials who do the same.

I'm speaking out against the government, for one, because many people think their actions are sanctioned (whereas most already agree that the criminally wealthy's actions are not sanctioned). For two, I'm a lot more concerned with the government because they don't steal money by clever fraud schemes, or taking advantage of the under-informed, or backhanded actions - they walk in the front door with gun in hand and steal right in front of your face. Resistance is not an option, because the amount of violence is overwhelming.

To me, that is infinitely more scary. When I sleep at night, I don't fear a banker coming up with an elaborate fraud scheme to steal my savings, I fear someone kicking down my front door and robbing me at gunpoint. Knowing that they might have a "search warrant" doesn't help me sleep any better.

As Farhad2000 mentioned, 1/3 of every dollar in private healthcare ends up in the hands of someone who is gaming the system, and I believe it. They steal because they don't think we are equal, that they are entitled to the fruits of our labor because we are somehow different, below them. Private, non-governmental people who are rotten criminals, who managed to get in the position of stealing 30 cents of every healthcare dollar by lobbying rotten criminals in the legislature. They are, in effect, not only gaming us, but those in government as well - because their share is much larger than the bribes and lobby dollars the government officials receive.

What scares me, is you see this situation where private criminals are stealing billions of dollars, an undeniable situation; and what you propose is to replace these private criminals with public criminals. Public officials who are in an even easier position to steal billions of dollars, who have a vastly larger amount of physical violence at their disposal.

That is scary, and I don't think it solves anything.

In Mexico, the government decided to combat drug smuggling by clamping down on the borders and arresting leaders in the crime syndicate. The result? A violent power vacuum which resulted in ritualistic revenge killings, mass-beheadings, and the assassinations of several public figures. Then, when they couldn't earn money through smuggling, they turned to kidnapping. Instead of clandestine smuggling, the public now has to cope with over 500 kidnappings a month - many in broad daylight - where 1 in 7 kidnap victims are murdered. These types of people don't just quit, they find new ways to steal.

You create a power vacuum in the healthcare industry and what do you think is gonna happen, these criminals who have been stealing billions of dollars are just gonna retire, or better yet, go to college and decide to pursue a legitimate line of work? Get a degree and go to some job interviews? Give up a life stealing billions a year for 60 hours a week slaving in the ER? No, they will probably just run for office.

These people will never work for a living because they don't think we are equal.

>> ^dystopianfuturetoday:
The private sector thinks in terms of money and does not function well when profit is not the top priority. Take the California energy privatization disaster, for instance. Corruption, fraud and negligence were almost instantaneous. Thankfully, the public legal system stepped in, but what would have happened if Enron owned the court system as well? Honestly, it just seems to me that libertarians don't think this kind of stuff through.

Psssfff... That was the sound of me opening a can of whoop ass.

Like I said, Democrats are one economics class away from being Libertarians. We have thought this through, and all of your examples show the greed of public companies known as Corporations. Why my great Demsocratic friends continue to confuse corporations with capitalism is beyond me.

Let me put it this way, did the government prevent Enron from creating the energy crisis? No. Could they? Yes. Why?? Because.... "The company's exotic capital structure was driven by our inscrutable tax code. And Enron's accounting scheme was aided by the Financial Accounting Standards Board, a government-appointed monopoly that lent credibility to methods designed to deceive or evade. The true libertarian approach -- market competition in accounting standards -- would have yielded financial transparency, not collapse." cite.



We will agree against corporations unanimously. That's where you and I agree, but you have to separate corporations from private business. Dag owns a private business, for instance. Do you distrust him? No.

Would you trust him to open a small school if he chose to do so? Or would that be handing over transparency and power to a mighty, mean CEO? Come on.

The private sector thinks in terms of money and does not function well when profit is not the top priority. Take the California energy privatization disaster, for instance. Corruption, fraud and negligence were almost instantaneous. Thankfully, the public legal system stepped in, but what would have happened if Enron owned the court system as well? Honestly, it just seems to me that libertarians don't think this kind of stuff through.

Public systems should be under public control, period. I'm not sure how this is even controversial. It's just so plain, simple and obvious. Private businesses should be under the control of private individuals; Public works and systems should be under the control of the public. DUH!

If you are concerned about our school system, the last thing you would want to do is to relinquish transparency, oversight and the power of your own voice over to some CEO. Talk about tyranny - when the private national school system fails, who are you going to complain to? Ron Paul?

As far as healthcare goes, I don't understand why you can't get on board with the single payer program. It leaves all of the hospital staff and facilities in private hands, but manages the cost like one large insurance plan, with the sheer volume of participants keeping the costs low. As a perk, it would also destroy the HMO industry - good fucking riddance.

The nurse thing sounds great, and there is no reason you couldn't implement it into any system (included our mutually dispised current system).

I'm with you on the big-Pharma run FDA too. If the FDA was privatized, do you think Big-Pharma might be interested it? Nah, never.....

PS: Do you think your shameful public education is to blame for the frequent gaps of logic in your arguments? (i kid, you are the smartest libertarian I have ever known)

Everything on your list defines Obama and the democrats.
Yes,republicans SAY those things,but never DO those things.
Fiscal responibility......????? what?
They have thrown out the constitution and when they dont agree with it they wish to amend it.(gay marriage,gitmo,et.)
Corporate malfeasance? omg i dont have time.start with enron and work your way to now.( remember the republicans SCREAMING when Obama fired the ceo of gm rick wagoner???)
Against the global spreading of "democracy" by way of invasions?
states rights>federal powers?
Uh..iraq. and take away states right to aprove same sex marriage by amending the constitution.
Republicans call THEMSELVES deregulators.John mccain said he was The Deregulater.
Deregulation, removal of overseers and safeguards by republicans are one of the reasons banks and insurance companies crashed.Removal of these safeguards allowed banks and insurance companies to overleverage.
This all happened before under another famous deregulator..reagan... Does anyone remember the savings and loans crash?? john mccain,keating 5 etc. same people. See The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, phill gramm.another texas republican.mccains advisor. his wife was on enrons board of directors.
But americans have generational amnesia.
If dr paul actually wants to accomplish any of these things you say he stands for then he needs to change parties and start actually trying to DO those things. until then its just more republican mumbo jumbo bullshit.

Another company bites the dust with Enron.

There's good regulation and bad, good deregulation and bad. Look at how much airline prices fell after deregulation as a moderately successful example of how dereg can work. Look at the mess of the energy industry in California as an example of how not to dereg stuff. She comes off as a blithering idiot by claiming that all deregulation is bad, and that we should huzzah for more regulation (when regulation often has a severe chilling effect on an economy.)

It may sound odd coming from a libertarian, but there are times when you need more laws, and times when you need less. As a libertarian, I think that less is usually more, but laws ARE necessary instruments - anarchy is bad - and laws are important tools for dealing with fraud. Of course, you'll end up with situations where the cure (Sarbanes-Oxley) causes even more problems than the fraud it was trying to prevent (Enron-like schemes), AND have a chilling effect on the economy as well. I'm very grateful my corporations are small and not public, or the overhead of having to deal with it would drive me insane and really hurt our bottom line.

Having a byline that the GOP is responsible for the current mess is nearly fraudulent. It was the GOP that was calling for MORE regulations on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and criminal idiots like Barney Frank and Maxine Waters were responsible for blocking it. They were as responsible as anyone in the government for our current mess, but the press gives them a complete pass.

>> ^volumptuous:
The Governator is also one of the biggest pieces of shit in this state.
He colluded with Ken Lay (Enron) and other power-pirates in Dick Cheney's "Energy Task Force" meetings, where the bilked the taxpayers out of more than $9billion dollars.
Fuck Arnold. He should not just be run out of office, he should be in jail.


You moron.

You can't put arnie in jail, he'd put his arm between 2 bars, flex his bicep, and walk out through the elephantine hole thus created.

The Governator is also one of the biggest pieces of shit in this state.

He colluded with Ken Lay (Enron) and other power-pirates in Dick Cheney's "Energy Task Force" meetings, where the bilked the taxpayers out of more than $9billion dollars.

Fuck Arnold. He should not just be run out of office, he should be in jail.

Morality is an abstract human concept created by human beings to describe basic socially beneficial actions brought up through evolution and the propagation of the species. This was furthered by human cultural development as well.

The interesting thing to note here is that believers of faith hold that Morality is given by god, but numerous historical events show that faith based societies would commit terrible acts in the name of religion basically disassembling that whole notion.

Morality is also a fluid concept and not directly black and white, it is wrong to kill people, but it is okay if done for national security interests or at a time of war. It is wrong to commit theft, but not if it benefits me and I cannot be caught see Enron/Maddoff.