I can't believe people still have to be told you can't do this to another person. Jesus christ. Why don't they just step it up to lobotomy, with their "treatments for being violent" or whatever.

This is what he got for not taking off his coat. i.e. disobeying authority, or non-conformity.

The sad, cold truth of things is that there are some severely autistic children who engage in the most horrific self-injurious behaviour, and aversive punishment is the ONLY treatment (in conjunction with a broader treatment plan, naturally) that works. And yes, it DOES work.

I'm not talking about kids with minor problems. I mean the ones who will do things like smash their own face into the ground over and over until they lose so much blood they pass out. The ones who will, left to themselves, die.

Positive punishment is horrible. But, it's either that, or let these kids maim or kill themselves (or possibly others) through their behaviour.

(I make no comment regarding this specific incident, I just want you to know the issue is far more complicated than this mind-bite would have you believe.)

I'm pretty sure this is a dupe of http://videosift.com/video/Graphic-video-of-teen-being-shocked-played-in-court

Unfortunately the linked video isn't working for me so I can't confirm.

"Aversive punishment" is not a coherent term in the realm of emotional/behavioral psychology. What's more, the practice to which this term seems to refer has vanishingly small effect on "self-injurious" behavior (which is actually called self-stimulating behavior). What effects it may have are significantly offset by the reduction in social and communications skills, and a decrease in cognitive ability. These reasons are why, when aversive conditioning is used in the developmental setting, it is as a last resort and the aversive stimulus is sparing and lenient. In this case, the video and other evidence around the boy's condition and behavior are sparse, and any judgment whether this was the correct course of action based on the information we have is laughable. Great measures require great evidence in their justification.

In any event, cooling people off their outrage at authority who inflict barbaric emotional and physical pain in an effort to encourage compliance for its own sake with quasi-psychology based claims is sophomoric at best. There may be some intellectual satisfaction with the idea that some minds are so beyond reason that they only respond to pain of this kind, but that idea only smacks true when the thinker lacks the creativity necessary to actually manage these kinds of malfunctions. Seems Nurse Ratched would pass muster with at least some of our Sifters.


>> ^berticus:

The sad, cold truth of things is that there are some severely autistic children who engage in the most horrific self-injurious behaviour, and aversive punishment is the ONLY treatment (in conjunction with a broader treatment plan, naturally) that works. And yes, it DOES work.
I'm not talking about kids with minor problems. I mean the ones who will do things like smash their own face into the ground over and over until they lose so much blood they pass out. The ones who will, left to themselves, die.
Positive punishment is horrible. But, it's either that, or let these kids maim or kill themselves (or possibly others) through their behaviour.
(I make no comment regarding this specific incident, I just want you to know the issue is far more complicated than this mind-bite would have you believe.)

I don't know what your background is (?), but my colleagues and I have no trouble understanding what "aversive punishment" means. No incoherence, no confusion. It's one part of behaviourist principles that are taught in undergraduate psychology. It is often referred to as positive punishment.

Would you care to cite the relevant evidence that shows the effects are vanishingly small? Because punishment, from everything I have learned, is an excellent means of behaviour control -- it just has many drawbacks, which is why reinforcement is the preferred alternative. The problem is that there are severe cases where nothing else works. What then do you do?

Reductions in social skills, communication skills, and cognitive ability are all possible outcomes. However, every one of those will depend on the punisher used, its properties, the behaviour in question, and a large variety of other factors. Your brush paints thickly.

I'm not sure what to make of your last paragraph. It reeks of ad-hom.

>> ^RhesusMonk:

"Aversive punishment" is not a coherent term in the realm of emotional/behavioral psychology. What's more, the practice to which this term seems to refer has vanishingly small effect on "self-injurious" behavior (which is actually called self-stimulating behavior). What effects it may have are significantly offset by the reduction in social and communications skills, and a decrease in cognitive ability. These reasons are why, when aversive conditioning is used in the developmental setting, it is as a last resort and the aversive stimulus is sparing and lenient. In this case, the video and other evidence around the boy's condition and behavior are sparse, and any judgment whether this was the correct course of action based on the information we have is laughable. Great measures require great evidence in their justification.
In any event, cooling people off their outrage at authority who inflict barbaric emotional and physical pain in an effort to encourage compliance for its own sake with quasi-psychology based claims is sophomoric at best. There may be some intellectual satisfaction with the idea that some minds are so beyond reason that they only respond to pain of this kind, but that idea only smacks true when the thinker lacks the creativity necessary to actually manage these kinds of malfunctions. Seems Nurse Ratched would pass muster with at least some of our Sifters.

>> ^berticus:
The sad, cold truth of things is that there are some severely autistic children who engage in the most horrific self-injurious behaviour, and aversive punishment is the ONLY treatment (in conjunction with a broader treatment plan, naturally) that works. And yes, it DOES work.
I'm not talking about kids with minor problems. I mean the ones who will do things like smash their own face into the ground over and over until they lose so much blood they pass out. The ones who will, left to themselves, die.
Positive punishment is horrible. But, it's either that, or let these kids maim or kill themselves (or possibly others) through their behaviour.
(I make no comment regarding this specific incident, I just want you to know the issue is far more complicated than this mind-bite would have you believe.)

>> ^RhesusMonk:

... "self-injurious" behavior (which is actually called self-stimulating behavior). ...

This is simply not true.

Well, we're not going to get anywhere. Clearly I've offended your well-honed psychological sensibilities by challenging your post that stated severe electroshock therapy is the ONLY treatment in some situations, written in the context of a news story where no justification whatsoever was given.

My brush painted as broadly as the words: "when aversive conditioning is used in the developmental setting, it is as a last resort and the aversive stimulus is sparing and lenient;" words with which you seem to agree. The side-effects to be avoided were mentioned in both our posts, and I should have used the word "or" where I used "and." What a semantic boner!

I don't know what your background is (?), but aversive punishment may be a way of referring to a practice in some fields, but in the context of ASDs and behavioral analysis, I have never heard the term used. Also, when autistics injure themselves, they do so when exhibiting self-stimulaing behaviors. I have been highly discouraged from using the term self-injuriious, as it is an outcome-based term that draws the focus away from the behavior's motivators.

As to the ad hom, if you took offense to my statement on the lack of creativity or my reference to Nurse Ratched, be assured I was referring to all those who upvoted your comment as well. Electroshock therapy is arcane and unimaginative in the educational context.



>> ^berticus:

>> ^RhesusMonk:
... "self-injurious" behavior (which is actually called self-stimulating behavior). ...
This is simply not true.

Nah, not really offended. Just disagree. Seeya!
>> ^RhesusMonk:

Well, we're not going to get anywhere. Clearly I've offended your well-honed psychological sensibilities by challenging your post that stated severe electroshock therapy is the ONLY treatment in some situations, written in the context of a news story where no justification whatsoever was given.
My brush painted as broadly as the words: "when aversive conditioning is used in the developmental setting, it is as a last resort and the aversive stimulus is sparing and lenient;" words with which you seem to agree. The side-effects to be avoided were mentioned in both our posts, and I should have used the word "or" where I used "and." What a semantic boner!
I don't know what your background is (?), but aversive punishment may be a way of referring to a practice in some fields, but in the context of ASDs and behavioral analysis, I have never heard the term used. Also, when autistics injure themselves, they do so when exhibiting self-stimulaing behaviors. I have been highly discouraged from using the term self-injuriious, as it is an outcome-based term that draws the focus away from the behavior's motivators.
As to the ad hom, if you took offense to my statement on the lack of creativity or my reference to Nurse Ratched, be assured I was referring to all those who upvoted your comment as well. Electroshock therapy is arcane and unimaginative in the educational context.

>> ^berticus:
>> ^RhesusMonk:
... "self-injurious" behavior (which is actually called self-stimulating behavior). ...
This is simply not true.

>> ^Skeeve:

I'm pretty sure this is a dupe of http://videosift.com/video/Graphic-video-of-teen-being-shocked-p
layed-in-court
Unfortunately the linked video isn't working for me so I can't confirm.


It's not a dupe.
My vid was from a different fox news channel (who doesn't support it's videos--it's dead).