Am still amazed Americans need to have this discussion, the "is it or is it not torture?" I think it detracts from the more important facts that came out from all this. The case for that has always been closed, its pretty clear from day 1 it was torture.

- the administration put torture forward as a policy
- the OLC wrote laws and legislation allowing torture to occur
- torture was renamed and regulated in an effort to legalize its application
- it was carried out in 3 US military complexes in Abu Ghraib, Gitmo and Bagram airbase
- it was actively applied by forward intelligence agents with the US military and was encouraged
- it was used as well through US cooperation with states that torture (egypt, syria, uzbekistan and etc)
- the administration lied about torture being 'isolated bad apples' post Abu Ghraib
- private military contractors were involved in its application and administration
- the military and intelligence apparatus was forced into producing results and green light into using torture techniques.
- far worse techniques were used other then water boarding which are still being blacklisted
- they did everything to cover it up, then spin the argument around one technique, then make it seem necessary, remember that once the scandal broke the KSM argument was put forward
- its been shown not to work at all no single intelligence agency has put forward any actionable intelligence produced through torture
- there has been no ticking time bomb scenarios a la 24
- there will be no persecutions of those who were responsible for these policies
- massive international damage to american standing

I don't really have any negative feelings about you either way, I met alot of troops like you in Kuwait already, they were all pissed they weren't fighting a conventional military force under a very vague mission statement of bringing Freedom and Democracy. Its hard to do anything when you have no definitive objective or exit strategy. Surprisingly to me a lot of them fell in love with the place and went native, but that happened in Vietnam and other conflicts as well.

The drug problem in Afghanistan is economical, when the Taliban took over they banned the drug trade with their usual heavy hand tactics, when chaos began the drug trade began all again. Culturally alot of people cultivated it for medicinal use, which explains my own rather liberal views towards drugs. But now mostly its a cash crop, for most its a means of survival though there are farms that are solely created to feed back funds into the Taliban movement and other warring factions. The old "its okay to grow this because it only destroys the infidel" ignoring the large drug abuse levels in the local population, Pakistan, Uzbekistan and many other nations through which it makes its way.

In terms of imposing culture I think alot of US military and political planners, coming from the top down Bush belief that "democracy will simply flourish given the chance" implemented alot of very silly political and economical ideas. I remember reading about the imposition of democratic elections in Iraq in rural tribal areas, the US civies where then shocked to find that everyone voted by tribal alliances and background. It's again a failure to read the human terrain of the battlefield in the same way we had occur in Vietnam.

This aspect is covered very well in several chapters of Dexter Filkins The Forever War - http://www.amazon.com/Forever-War-Dexter-Filkins/dp/0307266397
Showing the disparity of understanding between coalition forces and the local population, I recommend it as unlike many books it stays politically neutral with no preaching on either side but rather an account of a journalist who went through Afghanistan and Iraq during the opening stages of the war.

In reply to this comment by smooman:
As per our last "discussion" you probably dont like me much but I think i just found some common ground =)

In reply to this comment by Farhad2000:

Given the last 8 years, I believe the Western world needs to engage the Arab world in dialog but it must respect the cultural background of the region and not just think that it can westernize ideas through brute force and seemingly endless criticism of it's religion.

I, for one, absolutely HATE the idea of westernizing Arab and Persian nations (namely Iraq and Trashgan....I mean Afghanistan). One of the platoons in my unit, while we were in Afghanistan, went out on a mission with the objective of demolishing a cannabis field. I was livid when I found out. These are a people who have been a nation far, far longer than we (the USA) and here we are telling them, forcing them even, to be like us while completely disregarding centuries of culture and history. Fuck that!

Totally true. Especially considering what Farhad has said, the best course of action in these sensitive times would be to really think this through. I am personally very conflicted about the US occupation of Iraq, but I have always felt like our presence in Afghanistan is somehow a little more justified. And Farhad, its good that you point that out (coming from Uzbekistan, I'm sure you know a heck of a lot about what makes a post-soviet country "tick"). I have a feeling that once Karzai is out, things may become more clear as to what needs to be done.

>> ^smooman:
perspective? answer this one question: have you been there? The answer to that question will tell me all I need to know about your perspective


EPIC FAIL

>> ^Farhad2000:
I grew in a place called Uzbekistan. That's north of Afghanistan.
I live in Kuwait. That's south of Iraq.


EPIC WIN

I grew in a place called Uzbekistan. That's north of Afghanistan.

I live in Kuwait. That's south of Iraq.

That would be true if Hamas solely sold terrorism and a fight against occupation, but Hamas also provide social services for the people of Palestine and has constructed schools and hospitals to achive this aim. From Wiki:

Hamas also runs extensive social programs and has gained popularity in Palestinian society by establishing hospitals, education systems, libraries and other services throughout the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Hamas' charter calls for the recapturing of the State of Israel and its replacement with a Palestinian Islamic state in the area that is now named Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip. Hamas describes its conflict with Israel as political and not religious or antisemitic. However, its founding charter, writings, and many of its public statements reflect the influence of antisemitic conspiracy theories.

Hamas's political wing has won many local elections in Gaza, Qalqilya, and Nablus. In January 2006, Hamas won a surprise victory in the Palestinian parliamentary elections, taking 76 of the 132 seats in the chamber, while the previous ruling Fatah party took 43. Many perceived the preceding Fatah government as corrupt and ineffective, and Hamas's supporters see it as an "armed resistance" movement defending Palestinians from the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories. However, since Hamas's election victory, particularly sharp infighting has occurred between Hamas and Fatah

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

I went to Uzbekistan for a month last year and two months at the start of this year, the country has gotten worse rather then better but that's not surprising considering we have had nothing but 15 years of Islam Karimov, who has only succeeded in creating a despotic authoritarian state. Some anecdotes of which I blogged http://blog.videosift.com/Farhad2000/Signs-You-Live-in-a-Dictatorship

My point about limited regional development is very valid in my nations case, it has alternated between cooperation with the West to cooperation with the Russians. Relations with the west were pretty much terminated once questions started to be asked about a violent government action against civilians in the province of Andijan.

Economically the nation has fared poorly, but you wouldn't think that reading the glossy magazines the president's daughter publishes, there are hardly jobs, the average wage is 100 dollars for professional doctors. The infrastructure is dilapidated, there is high organized crime, drug addiction and preventable diseases are running in number. Basic civil services are volatile in the capital, my home district had no power for the two days I spent in the Winter, its almost non existent in other cities and provinces.

Political power is held because of a mixture of cooperation with the West towards fighting terrorism, which our government proclaims it is fighting when its really a false flag for suppression of democratic movements and political dissent. A factor the US/UK has ignored while fixated on it's war against terror and need of a US airbase for actions in Afghanistan, both were kicked out when they questioned the Andijan actions.

There is massive diaspora of Uzbeks who now live overseas, this has created a huge brain drain, the highest education professionals being the most able to migrate, though there is a lot of low income earners who leave to Kazakhstan and Russia.

Other strange actions by the government like the mandatory imposition of Uzbek as a educational language along with predictable lack of investment has meant that education standards have fallen as well. There are no high level education books in my language, which is stupid considering Russian text books exist in abundance and was the defacto language of communication after 60 years of communist rule. Leading to a strange love/hate relationship politically with the Russians, we stopped using Cyrillic in favor of Latin for example. Russia however remains the largest ally of Uzbekistan politically.

It's sad and pretty insane to just count off the numerous way the country has become worse, am trying to think of some positives as well but its hard, most of the people who are doing well are doing well because of some hidden income from illicit activity or basically being one of the lucky ones in the loop to benefit, nepotism with regards to securing commercial contracts is common either exclusive distribution rights or simply the ability to reclaim private businesses via the government. Karimov's daughter has become a relative master at this, she has confiscated numerous businesses for her own lil' private empire. There are more goods I guess, but then again 80% of the population cannot afford them, nor can they afford the new high tech medical facilities opening up. Educational diplomas from some of the most respected medical institutions can now be bought for a few thousand dollars.

People are (finally) getting sick of it, my cousin is currently visiting me right now, he says that government criticism is pretty prevalent now among the taxi drivers (which are always a good indicator of the national pulse in my view). However I do not see a possible way for democratic and smooth hand over of power, it will either be violent and impose a new kind of despotic ruler who may or may not improve the nation in the same manner Kazakhstan has or not. In all likely hood a power struggle will take place when Karimov dies, with various lackeys stepping in, I don't think his daughter would be successful, the man is old and his days are numbered. But then again we have all seen how long people like Fidel stay alive. So you never know.


In reply to this comment by EDD:

But talking about inequalities in regional development, I'm guessing you can share some experiences, right? Trenin argues that smaller cities are also a lot better off now than they were ten years ago, but I suppose you're talking about the very far East and the countryside, yes? When was the last time you went to Russia or Uzbekistan?

>> ^kronosposeidon:
You should get Farhad's take on this. He's originally from Uzbekistan.

He was born of the hole.

My take? The devil is lazy. Lu hasn't sent up a team of engineers to fix the problem... then he just doesn't care that there is a huge gate to hell right there in the middle of Uzbekistan.

You should get Farhad's take on this. He's originally from Uzbekistan.

That was utterly brilliant.

Most of Bush's administration is filled with Cold War-era propagandists who know how to stage a fight against the "Evil Empire," and people just go along with it, as if it's somehow related to today's battles.

What amazes me is the fact that they want so badly to have the Cold War, that they're going to nuke Iran! And what do people say? "Well, we won't invade; we'll just bomb their weapons sites." As if Iran won't see that as a threat against them in general.

I've never heard about Stalin's apportioning of different nationalities into the lower states, but it's an interesting idea. Did he apportion Bosnia and Serbia? Because it would be crazy to know that the Bosnian War was started over a Stalin-initiated program.

In reply to this comment by Farhad2000:
Of course they miss the Cold War, fighting a visible and tangible enemy you can easily call names by invoking over 50 years of anti-communist propaganda!

It is my view that Georgia had total right to try and subvert a splintering of it's nation by moving into South Ossestia. This all has to do with how Stalin mapped the nations below Russia, making sure to include various nationalities in each nation to avert breeding nationalistic sentiment. In Uzbekistan for example there is a huge section of Tajiks in Samarkand, tomorrow it could decide to splinter to join Tajikistan.

Russia isn't there to assure anyone of anything but projecting power and influence on the Georgian government and all other satellite states (Ukraine and Poland specifically) that their cooperation with the West is nothing more then piss in the wind, and when push comes to shove no one will come to their aid.

Welcome to the New Soviet Union.

Of course they miss the Cold War, fighting a visible and tangible enemy you can easily call names by invoking over 50 years of anti-communist propaganda!

It is my view that Georgia had total right to try and subvert a splintering of it's nation by moving into South Ossestia. This all has to do with how Stalin mapped the nations below Russia, making sure to include various nationalities in each nation to avert breeding nationalistic sentiment. In Uzbekistan for example there is a huge section of Tajiks in Samarkand, tomorrow it could decide to splinter to join Tajikistan.

Russia isn't there to assure anyone of anything but projecting power and influence on the Georgian government and all other satellite states (Ukraine and Poland specifically) that their cooperation with the West is nothing more then piss in the wind, and when push comes to shove no one will come to their aid.

Welcome to the New Soviet Union.

My name is Farhad. I was born in Tashkent, Uzbekistan, a country in Central Asia. Post collapse of the USSR, my family moved to Zambia in Africa. We stayed there for 9 years before moving to Kuwait where I completed my High school. In 2003 I went to Montreal, Canada for a Economics degree, however after 4 years it was not something that I really enjoyed so I decided to leave to take up a job in the IT field before making up my mind about were else to go later.

I work for a company in the Web Development and IT Support fields, my interests however extend out to video editing, graphical design and computer gaming. I enjoy history, economics, politics and military strategy. You can find me in Kuwait reading a Harpers Magazine looking pissed off at the general population.

>> ^jwray:
This is a one-sided propaganda video

Calling this a propaganda video is taking a bit far, its explaining the choices of some muslim women who choose to wear the hijab in the Western world, its not the videos fault when it doesn't answer all your questions about one religion or the other.

Its not required by Islam to wear a hijab, it is mainly traditional and social based phenomena mostly caused by spread of Wahhabi Islam of Saudi Arabia, Uzbekistan is a Islamic nation but we do not follow the Sharia nor do our women wear the hijab.

If people have such a problem with extremist Islam why not start at the source called Saudi Arabia which imposes a strict interpretation of Islam used as a political tool of control and influence by the Royal Family against their own population.

But of course that won't ever happen, the oil is too important.

No self respecting chef would allow themselves to endorse fast food franchises such as Dunkin Donuts...

Oh wait, that's right, she's not a chef! How silly of me.

But I digress. This was pretty ridiculous to hear about. Did this ever air in regular new shows? Anyways I don't think it looks like a kaffiyeh at all.

Someone go ask Farhad, he lives near there or something or somewhere called Uzbekistan or something. They're all the same people