>> ^KnivesOut:

Again, I don't necessarily think you're a sexist or a misogynist. I think you may be suffering from the same "boys club" attitude that many of the engineers I've worked with operate under. I just want you to introspect a little and consider the possibility.

Possibly. I'd like to think I don't suffer from that, although in reality, I cannot ignore the fact that we are all a product of the society we grew up in. In my defence, it is something I've thought about and I feel I'm open to the possibility of being wrong.

>> ^KnivesOut:

For the sake of argument, what if we replaced the masculine/feminine terms in your question with racial ones:
"why do we need to promote any career/vocation that is traditionally single [race] dominated to the other [race], e.g. [some profession] to [blacks], [some other profession] to [whites]?"
I'm drawing no conclusions about the importance or the value of one profession over the other, merely putting it into racial terms instead of sexual ones. To me, it feels just as icky.

I understand the ick factor there. But isn't there a difference between assuming a racial bias and a gender or even cultural bias? (bias is really the wrong word here, but I'm struggling to come up with a better one). I don't believe we can ignore the fact that different genders or cultures show aptitudes for different things (I believe culture is more important than race in determining this, in fact, I generally believe race to be largely irrelevant).

I guess my idea is to be "post-feminist/racist". I'd hope that we can accept individuals on their merits.

>> ^KnivesOut:

I believe that sexism is still widely accepted in our society, to a much higher degree than racial intolerance, or even tolerance of "alternate lifestyles". It's insidious, and it crosses the entirety of our society (sexism in every racial community.) Women still get paid less for the same work, they still have a harder time getting promotions (and then still make less money.) Women are even very sexist against each-other (you should see the looks my wife gets when she tells other mothers at school functions that she's finishing a compsci degree.)


This I agree with. Look at the current crop of games from E3. I utterly dislike the idea that anyone is judged in a career on anything other than their merits.

>> ^KnivesOut:

Maybe I'm overly touchy about it, and for that I apologize.


You probably shouldn't. In general, I am a cantankerous, grumpy bastard who's entirely too sure of the correctness of his own opinions.

>> ^luxury_pie:

>> ^ponceleon:
More to the point: what the FUCK is he wearing?

Good idea, criticize him for his choice of clothes. Maybe send a letter to this wonderful, kind man.


Maybe it is how their culture shows respect? Kind of like farting and burping after a meal here in the states!

thanks mate!

In reply to this comment by kulpims:
*promote

White culture? Sure, if by culture he's referring to the failure that is white suburbia in America. Row after row after row after row of houses that all look the same, filled with bored, uncreative white Christians watching reality television. What's fun? Shopping at Wal-Mart!!! That's America's "white culture".

Show me a more apt description of white culture in America, I'll drive down to South Carolina and steal one of my cousin's trailers. Maybe I'll get laid, who knows.

I'm gonna go listen to some Black Flag.

>> ^schmawy:
I love how comfortable Jack is just being a guy in a band. So many would think of it as a step backwards, but Jack is bigger than that.


A chance to get away from the (ex-)wife.

Thanks That song deserves more love.

In reply to this comment by Eklek:
*promote
*love

Re: but when I think about people I know and some of the problems I've had, I just sit there and think "that's a problem I wouldn't mind having."

But if you hadn't had the problems you have had, and instead, had had similar experiences to Oxdittir, they might be as meaningful to you, as they were for her. Not would, "might". Your personal response to those situations would be personal to you and not a carbon copy of anyone else's.

As it is, it may not be an experience you can relate too. Note, i didn't say "sympathize", but relate. You do not to "feel sorry" to understand someone else. And fundamentally, that is what was being shared by the vid and Oxdittir, their experiences. Understanding, and sympathy, are not the same.

The phrase "walk a mile in someone else's shoes" is about understanding others, not feeling sorry for them.

You weren't being asked to find those situations personally meaningfully to you, but to understand, and respect, that they ARE meaningful and important to the people who DID experience them.

Emphasizing a lack of sympathy, as though that had been the point of their sharing their feelings/experiences, both misses the point, and devalues their experience.

Asking as you did "would you rather be ugly?" fundamentally misses the point, and undermines the value of the expressed feelings etc, by the implied idea that:
Were the situation reversed, you would feel worse, .'., knowing that, you should not feel bad about things as they are.

See how that devalues the feelings of Oxdittir and those in the vid, intentionaly or otherwhise?

Also, its a meaningless question, as at no point, did anyone in the video, or in Oxdittir post, state or imply that females seen as plain or unatractive have it easy (females are often treated like shit by everyone, male or female, by our culture).

Showing that people get treated badly by others, in a manner unacknowledged or recognized by our culture, is valuable to have shared.

Stating that "you should feel happy because i have more reason to feel unhappy than you" is a meaningless philosophical idea.

Stating that "I do not feel sympathy for you" may be true, but to take it further and imply from that ".'. you should not, and have no right too feel bad about the negative experiences you have encountered, or that, those negative experiences are meaningless because worse evil exists" is unkind, and in my view, utterly wrong, as well as highly devaluing.

To my mind, asking "would you rather be ugly?" did exactly that.

I'm sure there are lots of peoples experiences, to which i cannot relate. my life experience is just too limited. Also, there may be lots of experiences which are important to others but which do not generate sympathy for me.

This makes learning about those experiences, and the feelings they can generate for those who did experience them, even MORE meaningful to learn about, so that my understanding of humanity can be increased. Not LESS meaningful, just because either i don't get it, or my heart strings arn't tugged.

Devaluing the experiences and feelings of others is a big personal bugbear for me. It's something that happens a lot.