Hamas is an armed resistance organization born out of 60 years of Israels stance towards the Palestinian people, its a symptom of the policies that were undertaken not some disease that suddenly sprung up against Israel.

You can fret and make all kinds of allegations you want, but neither ETA, IRA or the Tamil Tigers had to fight a resistance campaign within a walled compound, with constant surveillance and over watch by the IDF with its Merkava tanks, Apache helicopters, and uniformed forces funded by the US army. A better example would be the Algerian resistance campaign.

Am not here to advocate for them but to explain their side. Because all you do is justify Israels unilateral military actions against the Palestinians as a whole. Look the onus is on you to justify the numerous deaths and destruction the IDF has unilaterally applied to all Palestinians. Not on me to explain why Israel policy has forced the existence of groups like Hamas and Hezboallah to take up arms in a guerrilla conflict.

Hamas was voted into power by the Palestinian people after Bushes push for election in the region, they were for the seperation plans until Bush left the region and the IDF killed a Palestinian in Gaza starting the endless violence again. The PLO and the Fatah organizations are not legitimate.

The Dahlan gang in Gaza and Abbass in the West Bank are not representative of the Palestinian people as they have been shown to be supported by and only exist for the concessionary actions pushed forward by US and Israel.

Previously IDF military campaigns would divide the Palestinians with their political representatives, this didn't happen now with Hamas as the IDF has seen happen with Yasser, PLO and Fatah as a whole.

And please don't try changing the subject, what the IDF has done was targeting civilians in Gaza to punish them collectively as a whole. It could have entered Gaza as a ground force and routed out the 'terrorists', as it had done in the past but no they needed a large shock and awe campaign to reinforce their oppression and apartheid.

Do you actually believe this campaign with its large civilian death count would actually mean no more attacks will happen? Or do you think this solidified even more resistance?

Even the Americans and NATO knew that if they killed too many civilians in Afghanistan or Iraq they would only increase resistance not decrease it.

I would say that the military incursion into Gaza has been largely a failure for Israel, not simply because of the negative world wide publicity from the large number of civilian deaths but also because it didn't achieve the kind of results that the IDF used to generate when dealing with Fatah in the past.

Back then Israel would bomb the shit out of Fatah and it's resistance would ebb away very quickly, Arafat would reach out and discuss a truce, a wedge would be created between the Palestinians and the Fatah government.

This was not the case in Gaza, resistance continued right up to the time of the cease fire, the Palestinians did not oust Hamas as Israel hoped in favor of the discredited Dahlan, Hamas never surrendered.

This has been a build up ever since the IDF failure in eliminating Hezbollah, the Arab world is rife with talk of defeating the once undefeatable Israel which with all it's high tech equipment, man power and bombs has not been able to silence Hamas or Hezbollah.

There has also been a large world wide reaction to Israel's acts, which in all its shock and awe only managed to kill 2 high ranking Hamas members, which is ineffective now since after years of IDF assassinations resistance groups have learned to operate in cell structures with no centralized power figure.

What are you talking about? This rally sounds EXACTLY like the Palin rallies. Oh, wait, you said "Pally" whatever that is.

Burn it out like cancer.. oh irony. Maybe they should use large man-sized ovens. Can you suggest that to your IDF friends there harvey..

Americans are a fiction. There's no such things as a American language or culture and no unique genetic American makeup.

The American language is English and its unique culture of freedom and commerce allows many disparate groups of people to live as one nation. Anyone can become an American. There are both Jewish and Arab-Americans and lo, they're not killing in the streets.

Observe the size of the Arab nations surrounding Israel. They do nothing to absorb or help their "brothers" the Palestinians; they'd rather use them as a thorn in Israel's side..

Arab nations have no interest in getting in a prolonged war with Israel, its political and economic suicide. Both Saudi Arabia and Eygpt have normalized relations with Israel through American policy of paying people off.

Arab nations could easily absorb ALL the "Palestinians" if they wanted to. Why would Israel object to people who want to kill them moving away? And if your cynical idea that the Saudis and Egyptians were "paid off" to have peace is accurate, isn't that better than the endless war and "Israeli cruelty" bemoaned here?

Palestinians have been allowed to flee into GCC states for years even though there is no firm Palestinian government or passport. There are huge Palestinian populations and refugee camps in every GCC state.

"Refugee camps" implies that the Palestinians aren't welcome in their new countries. They're still being used as pawns, victims of "Zionism". Seems a lot of Arab monarchs depend on hatred of the Jews to keep their power. Old habits die hard.

It's no great secret that Jews are reviled in many lands, yet no one seems willing to give them a land of their own, which was in fact THEIR land 5000 years ago.

By your logic you should move out and give back all the lands to American Indians which were murdered by colonists. The land of Jerusalem was occupied by every religious and ethnic denomination over the course of time, its fallacious to claim one ethnic group deserves the land more then the other. This isn't the time of the Crusades.

The American Indians were not "native" to the Americas but crossed the land bridge that used to exist between Russia and Alaska. Not only do American Indians have full American citizenship but their own nations. There is no mandate among the American Indian nations to attack and kill Euro and other Americans. Unlike the Jews, Indians of the Americas were not spread across 80 countries with no homeland to speak of.

Israel is surrounded by enemies on every side. They have no choice but to defend themselves.

Israel isn't surrounded by enemies on every side, a common myth peddled by Israel's apologists, American dollars have bought the tacit tolerance and indifference of Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Lebanon simply wishes to be left alone to be able to rebuild after it was punished for the actions of Hezboallah. Syria was bombed by IDF planes about a possible nuclear site of which details are murky and under reported because there is no conclusive evidence of it. The only nation consistently bombing people using high tech is Israel, who wanted to go as far as bombing Iran and destabilizing the region further when no nuclear weapons have been developed.

Which is the only nation in the Middle East with nuclear weapons? Israel.

If "Palestine" had nukes they would've already have used them. There is no way a Palestinian 'state' can ever be allowed to exist, because it would become just another launchpad for hamas attacks.

>> ^Yehoshua:
Ok, so you added some good details to this unilateral plan for peace; the UN comes in and enforces it, the US and EU broker the agreements. At what point would Israel be justified in ending a peace in response to an attack?

This is a wrong way of looking at the situation as you are searching for some kind of allowance to when Israel can use it's military power in response to an attack when we are discussing a peace deal. Such terms can never be defined and have never formed any part of a peace deal. Cessation of terrorist activity yes but not a stipulation of when retaliation can occur. Its unrealistic.

I find it best to look at parallels in other conflicts and how the peace treaty was worked out, in Northern Ireland you had a concrete disengagement from both sides, an agreement to end hostilities, a firm declaration of no favored status from the UK which ultimately lead to peace. This is now the kind of situation we require in the Middle East peace process.

Previous peace engagements have failed due to forced concessionary actions by Israel towards Palestine. In the 2003 Road map for peace article 1 stipulated an end to settler expansions in the West Bank, this was refused by Sharon who claimed that settlements cannot stop in the West bank. Then we had numerous 'reservations' put in place by Israel towards the peace plan - http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=297230

One of which was a complete dismantlement of terrorist organizations before the implementation of the rest of the articles of the Road map to peace, something I always found an unrealistic expectation as its impossible to control the numerous groups that hold extremist views against Israel ranging from pure jihad against Jews to complete annihilation of the State of Israel. The Palestinian people do not have the refined policing force that could prevent and guarantee such action.

Furthermore it stipulated the complete need to disarm the Palestinian people, which is a completely unrealistic thing to ask towards a people that have been fighting a war against occupation. You cannot expect them to suddenly trust your 'word' that you will remain committed to the articles that relate Israeli concessions to Palestinian. All of which were laced with phrases like "Subject to security conditions, Israel will work to restore Palestinian life to normal: promote the economic situation, cultivation of commercial connections, encouragement and assistance for the activities of recognized humanitarian agencies."

This is not a peace process, this is forced concessions on the Palestinians. Bush left the region, the IDF entered Gaza and killed a Palestinian and the cycle of violence escalated again.

Suicide bombing or a rocket barrage, which has been accepted as a valid tactic by the vast majority of the Palestinian people.

Unfortunately the Palestinian people do not have the military assistance and help of the US to allow them to purchase F-16s, Apache attack helicopters, M-16s and other weapons. Israel launched countless rocket attacks over the areas designed to essentially assassinate leaders. What kind of impression does this create in the Palestinian people?

The Palestinians have, in my experience, more often had leadership interested in pursuing military action.

The Palestinians support these attacks because they exist under Israeli occupation, I find it fascinating that you do not look into the sheer conditions that Israel imposes on the Palestinian people which to me explain their armed resistance, from the separation wall, to check points, to arbitrary incursions, to open air prison, to blockades, to home bulldozing, to large scale bombings and destruction that we have witness over the last few weeks.

As I said again terrorist action is a symptom not a disease in Palestine, the Israelis gave no other option to many Palestinians who resist the occupational actions. To us this may seem like lunacy but then again we haven't lived most our lives under occupation.

I don't condone alot of their actions, I believe alot of it is counter productive, but am not living in those conditions and I cannot simply brush aside these attacks and claim that they are simply being stubborn, that they are all extremist or all are seeking martyrdom. Because we have seen such sacrifices and terrorist actions in previous conflicts.

this does not justify what IDF is doing in Gaza right now. just wanted to make that clear

>> ^Yehoshua:
First pull out, bulldoze the checkpoints and the walls, open the borders, remove all of the settlements, release all of Palestinians imprisoned in Israel, call off any pending assassinations, restore the borders to where they were in '67, then peace?

That would be a good start but this will never be initiated by the Israelis or the Palestinians, the only real power broker that could bring both parties to the table and diplomatic relations would be the US and the EU, without taking the sides of either party.

The US is too pro-Israel and too politically stubborn to stand up to Israel even though bringing this to a finality would resolve alot of middle eastern hostility to America. The Arabs see Israeli pilots in American planes dropping American bombs (even though most GCC states buy arms wholesale from the US themselves a fact under reported in local arab media).

The US should bring forward GCC states to the table as well and enforce their acceptance of Israel as a state. The sheer idiocy imposed in the Middle East against Israel is retarded Kindergarten stuff, simply used to divert public attention away from their own corrupt governments something especially seen in Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

UN forces would be needed to arrange security zones and provide disengagement, neither Israel nor Hamas would accept either as a security component in any shape or form. UN Peace keeping forces could be brought in and provide the same middle man entity as it did in the Balkan conflicts. Jerusalem would be best created as a separate state within a state along the lines of the Vatican to prevent religious tensions between both religious groups as there extremist orthodox Jews and Muslims.

With such imposition attacks would be far more rare as the majority of the population would be accepting of these terms and thus these attacks would gain no political or social traction, an unwilling population who sees no benefit and loss of hope through attacks becomes friendly and would oust terrorist themselves, this is not the case clearly now, as IDF bombs them so they support retaliation. Though it would not guarantee it as too much blood has been split, on both sides. But this is what happens when you let a conflict fester for 60 years.

Am surprised you think that hostile actions could only come from Palestine and not Israel. Israel is not exactly saintly when it comes to being rational in its application of force.

Even within Israel and Jewish communities around the world there is large dissent over IDF actions in Gaza as they have seen this happen time and time again and know that such hostile actions coupled with large civilian deaths (a third of which are children) would only create blow back.

The problem with Israel's arsenal of Nukes is that its a secret and was only discovered when an Israeli brought forth information about it. Your claim later on is false I believe, I don't trust any nation with nukes I do not believe one nation or the other is more sensible when it comes to the application of nuclear weapons.

To say Iran would detonate a nuke is to take that situation and not go into the details of what actually occurred, the IAEA has stated time and time again that Iran has no nuclear weapons programs. Iran as a whole is in economic straits and possess none of the technology to actually create a nuclear weapon. Iran's stance and progression and threats towards those means however is simply a symptom of the hypocritical notion that some nations can be trusted with nuclear technology and not others, not to mention the sudden international attention acquisition of nuclear arms creates. Look at how the US rushed to North Korea to placate it to disarm its nuclear programs. But I digress.

However I know full well that the scenario you and I propose will never see the light of day. Because no one gives a shit really.

>> ^quantumushroom:
Palestinians are a fiction. There's no such things as a Palestinian
language or culture and no unique genetic Palestinian makeup.

Americans are a fiction. There's no such things as a American language or culture and no unique genetic American makeup.

Observe the size of the Arab nations surrounding Israel. They do nothing to absorb or help their "brothers" the Palestinians; they'd rather use them as a thorn in Israel's side.

Arab nations have no interest in getting in a prolonged war with Israel, its political and economic suicide. Both Saudi Arabia and Eygpt have normalized relations with Israel through American policy of paying people off.

Palestinians have been allowed to flee into GCC states for years even though there is no firm Palestinian government or passport. There are huge Palestinian populations and refugee camps in every GCC state.

It's no great secret that Jews are reviled in many lands, yet no one seems willing to give them a land of their own, which was in fact THEIR land 5000 years ago.

By your logic you should move out and give back all the lands to American Indians which were murdered by colonists. The land of Jerusalem was occupied by every religious and ethnic denomination over the course of time, its fallacious to claim one ethnic group deserves the land more then the other. This isn't the time of the Crusades.

Israel is surrounded by enemies on every side. They have no choice but to defend themselves.

Israel isn't surrounded by enemies on every side, a common myth peddled by Israel's apologists, American dollars have bought the tacit tolerance and indifference of Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Lebanon simply wishes to be left alone to be able to rebuild after it was punished for the actions of Hezboallah. Syria was bombed by IDF planes about a possible nuclear site of which details are murky and under reported because there is no conclusive evidence of it. The only nation consistently bombing people using high tech is Israel, who wanted to go as far as bombing Iran and destabilizing the region further when no nuclear weapons have been developed.

Which is the only nation in the Middle East with nuclear weapons? Israel.

The IDF has a effective way of silencing their critics. This doctor speaks Hebrew and is a regular guest on the TV station. Since there are very few independent journalist reporting out of Gaza now, the doctor has been providing first hand report of life inside the war zone. Just like the shelling of the UN school, this is no accident neither.

Yehoshua, you don't disagree so much as you peddle forth the same BS spit out by the Israel media to justify the actions of the IDF. Shit your name is the Jewish pronounciation of Jesus for goddsakes.

And its not like you bring forth any objectivity to the discussion, not to mention that your comments are woefully ignorant or rather malicious in their reading of history and the conflict at large.

Hamas was elected not only because of it being terrorist, shit the Americans voted in Bush should we condemn all Americans to die for their unlawful unilateral military actions? Hamas provided the Palestinian people with a government that provided schools and hospitals when Fatah was too busy with infighting over who controls what after Yasser Araft died who ran the thing as his personal mob business more then any government institution that cared for its people.

Hamas is a reflection and embodiment of the bitterness that Isreal has wrought on the Palestinian people over the last 60 years, it is foolish and stupidity to simply relegate peoples actions to terrorism without thinking about what exactly drives a populace or a single person to resist and fight to the death.

To say that Israel is conducting this 'war' as safely as possible is the dumbest shit I ever heard, you yourself claim that war is hell yet at the same time you really believe that bombing and killing civilians will suddenly enlight them and turn them into docile democratic people. How is Israel showing care by telling Gazans to basically internally flee within the open air prison they set up with blockades, necessitating the tunnels that smuggle goods in. The Gazan blockade has been in effect since June of last year, something that Israel has claimed was to destroy Hamas as well by applying collective punishment of all Gazans, a war crime under Geneva conventions. Violence simply begets violence see the current destabilized Iraq and Afghanistan as a whole.

As a military strategy its disconnected with what Livni claims of peace and ending Hamas, the Lebanese war showed that all of Israel's military power could not destroy Hezboallah and what was the cost of this failure? The utter devastation of most of Lebanon. How did that work out for Israel? A great success? Will this hostile action cease the attacks or simply create even more fundamentalism in a people who see right that the world at large care not for their plight.

Countless cases have shown that COIN works best in fighting terrorism that is allying yourself with the general population to seek a common objective, this was shown to work in several locations in Iraq such as Mosul. However Israel has no common objective with the Palestinian people who they have shoved into smaller and smaller enclaves through slow acquisition of lands by 'settlers'. The west bank looks like fucking swiss cheese now. Israel seeks simply to acquire and hold land. It's military power assures even though civilian deaths will occur through hostile action, in the long term the land will become theirs.

But this is what Israel wants and needs, a perpetual war to keep its population in check and to continue having American support. To claim its fighting the good fight killing mostly civilians so that it can win elections.

But hell what do you care you come simply to shill propagandistic bullshit and by lines of the Israel apologist media who don't even cover Gaza because IDF does not allow reporters in.

I could on and on deconstructing your thinly veiled apologizes for what are essentially war crimes.

Think of the analogy of what is happening in Gaza, The US is being bombed by Russia because Russia is sick and tired of the nuclear threat America presents. Russia is full justified in assuring its national security and hopes that by bombing major population centers of America, the American people will rise up and over throw their tyrannical government that they voted in.

kthxbye.

I wouldn't say that 'Palestinian' = Terrorist in every case, but this video portrays them all as a passel of peaceful Elois beset without cause by an IDF Morlock military machine.

But it is interesting video no matter what one's interpretation thereof.

>> ^joedirt:
Screw them, hoarding all the food there. I'll bet they had enough food for thousands, if not millions.
I'm glad Israel is exposing these criminals (IDF only attacks criminals) and showing the world what kind of evil, sick people are there. They deserve it, let the phosphorus rain down upon them like napalm!



Um... The United Nations and the international media are "evil, sick people" and should be burned alive by illegal IDF chemicals?? Are you serious??!

What did the international media ever do to you to deserve such ire?

This isn't the first time that the IDF has attacked the UN. I guess they don't like witnesses or something for some reason...

We don't know what their intentions are, but the way I see it, the IDF is either firing shells at random into civilians (war crime), or purposefully shelling the media (war crime). Any other possible interpretations?

Tags for this video have been changed from 'refugee agency, wp ammo, cnn, oops' to 'refugee agency, wp ammo, cnn, oops, UN, israel, gaza, idf' - edited by joedirt