Yes, FDA approvals and restrictions are broken and need to be fixed. But throwing out the concept of an FDA is ridiculous and dangerous to the health of the citizenry. Same with the EPA. Once collusion is involved, of course the agency is going to fail. But if run properly, it's an incredibly valuable tool in our democratic arsenal. FEMA can do awesome things, but put some heckuva-Brownie's in charge and its an unmitigated disaster.

Just as most libertarians (I am assuming) would agree that a federal military is useful and effective when not abused, but if corrupt motherfuckers use it for nation-building and natural resource stealing and illegal occupations does not mean we should do away with a military entirely.

Making an agency fail through corruption and collusion, then pointing at that failure so you can dismantle it or argue against it, is disingenuous.

Actually, I agree with people saying this is beating a dead horse. My honest thought was "why would this shock or surprise anyone" when I saw it being passed around.

W_P, my recollection wasn't that the critics of the Bush response was that he should have somehow prevented the levee failure through some last minute personal intervention, but that he personally failed to engage the issue in any kind of practical or symbolic way, and that his FEMA director (who had no prior experience in Emergency Management) seemed to screw up every possible aspect of the logistics of support during the aftermath.

Bush then wounded himself further by declaring total confidence in said director with the whole "Heckuva job, Brownie" thing.

But I've been reminded that part of the post-incident spin work was another Bush staple, the "No one could have predicted" defense, in which case I understand why people are angered anew.

Me, I'm not really able to summon much outrage over this particular aspect of the controversy. Apparently I'm in the minority.

Winstonfield, the scope of the damage and need WAS known ahead of time. By now everyone knows of the Aug. 28th National Weather Service bulletin with its dramatic wording:

...DEVASTATING DAMAGE EXPECTED...

.HURRICANE KATRINA...A MOST POWERFUL HURRICANE WITH UNPRECEDENTED
STRENGTH...RIVALING THE INTENSITY OF HURRICANE CAMILLE OF 1969.

MOST OF THE AREA WILL BE UNINHABITABLE FOR WEEKS...PERHAPS LONGER. AT
LEAST ONE HALF OF WELL CONSTRUCTED HOMES WILL HAVE ROOF AND WALL
FAILURE. ALL GABLED ROOFS WILL FAIL...LEAVING THOSE HOMES SEVERELY
DAMAGED OR DESTROYED.

THE MAJORITY OF INDUSTRIAL BUILDINGS WILL BECOME NON FUNCTIONAL.
PARTIAL TO COMPLETE WALL AND ROOF FAILURE IS EXPECTED. ALL WOOD
FRAMED LOW RISING APARTMENT BUILDINGS WILL BE DESTROYED. CONCRETE
BLOCK LOW RISE APARTMENTS WILL SUSTAIN MAJOR DAMAGE...INCLUDING SOME
WALL AND ROOF FAILURE.

HIGH RISE OFFICE AND APARTMENT BUILDINGS WILL SWAY DANGEROUSLY...A
FEW TO THE POINT OF TOTAL COLLAPSE. ALL WINDOWS WILL BLOW OUT.

Furthermore, Bush's emergency declaration did not include any of Louisiana's coastal parishes. The freaking coastal parishes. Jeez, you'd think they want to include those when a freaking hurricane strikes. FEMA chief Michael Brown ("Brownie") lied in his testimony to Congress when he said that Governor Blanco never included those parishes in her request for aid, when she had in fact requested aid for "all the southeastern parishes including the New Orleans Metropolitan area and the mid state Interstate I-49 corridor and northern parishes along the I-20 corridor that are accepting [evacuated citizens]." She made the request on Aug. 27th, two days before Katrina hit.

You yourself state that "No other FEMA effort in a long time needed even a tenth of what New Orleans needed." In other words, Katrina was a crisis of epic proportions. Yet you also claim that disaster relief is primarily a state and local function. So if Katrina was a monster even for the Feds, then how do you expect state and local resources to be able to respond to this epic disaster? That is why we have the federal response, because local resources are easily overwhelmed in crises such as these. And that's how FEMA under Bush failed, because of the shitty response by a shitty boss appointed by a shitty President.

Yes, there is blame to go around, but because of the magnitude of the event it was primarily the Feds' job to take care of things, and they didn't. You don't get to rewrite history like Michael Brown tried to do in order to protect the legacy of your neocon quack of a President.

So are you saying that Brownie did do a hell of a job?

thats true. My book is very small so congrats to you

In reply to this comment by MarineGunrock:
It's always a good day when you make it to the top of an inflatable vagina'a book. Of course, it's always a good day when you make it to the top of any vagina's book.

In reply to this comment by inflatablevagina:
mgr.... i cant stop fucking laughing at the ham sandwich... priceless...you've been promoted to "tops" in my book

In reply to this comment by MarineGunrock:
Stranger: horny?
You: Depends.
Stranger: m or f?
You: m
Stranger: f
You: You must be to start off like that.
Stranger: hahaha you guessed it
Stranger: you?
You: I'm a guy. ALways.
Stranger: haha thats true. what would you do if i were strapped to your bed? make me wet
You: Get a ham sandwich.
Your conversational partner has disconnected.

I crack myself up.

You: Hello!
Stranger: i believe spring man,and you?
You: I believe fall?
Stranger: do you know spring man?
You: I know spring woman.
You: She bake me some brownies once.
You: I eat them, and then feel funny.
Stranger: right,she is super man 's sister.
You: I think I pooped.
You have disconnected.

It's always a good day when you make it to the top of an inflatable vagina'a book. Of course, it's always a good day when you make it to the top of any vagina's book.

In reply to this comment by inflatablevagina:
mgr.... i cant stop fucking laughing at the ham sandwich... priceless...you've been promoted to "tops" in my book

In reply to this comment by MarineGunrock:
Stranger: horny?
You: Depends.
Stranger: m or f?
You: m
Stranger: f
You: You must be to start off like that.
Stranger: hahaha you guessed it
Stranger: you?
You: I'm a guy. ALways.
Stranger: haha thats true. what would you do if i were strapped to your bed? make me wet
You: Get a ham sandwich.
Your conversational partner has disconnected.

I crack myself up.

You: Hello!
Stranger: i believe spring man,and you?
You: I believe fall?
Stranger: do you know spring man?
You: I know spring woman.
You: She bake me some brownies once.
You: I eat them, and then feel funny.
Stranger: right,she is super man 's sister.
You: I think I pooped.
You have disconnected.

mgr.... i cant stop fucking laughing at the ham sandwich... priceless...you've been promoted to "tops" in my book

In reply to this comment by MarineGunrock:
Stranger: horny?
You: Depends.
Stranger: m or f?
You: m
Stranger: f
You: You must be to start off like that.
Stranger: hahaha you guessed it
Stranger: you?
You: I'm a guy. ALways.
Stranger: haha thats true. what would you do if i were strapped to your bed? make me wet
You: Get a ham sandwich.
Your conversational partner has disconnected.

I crack myself up.

You: Hello!
Stranger: i believe spring man,and you?
You: I believe fall?
Stranger: do you know spring man?
You: I know spring woman.
You: She bake me some brownies once.
You: I eat them, and then feel funny.
Stranger: right,she is super man 's sister.
You: I think I pooped.
You have disconnected.

They both made me laugh out loud, but the ham sandwich was pure genius. More please.

In reply to this comment by MarineGunrock:
Which part? Ham sammich? I'll be laughing about that one all day.

In reply to this comment by eric3579:
Frickin' brilliant! That was just a great way to start my day

In reply to this comment by MarineGunrock:
Stranger: horny?
You: Depends.
Stranger: m or f?
You: m
Stranger: f
You: You must be to start off like that.
Stranger: hahaha you guessed it
Stranger: you?
You: I'm a guy. ALways.
Stranger: haha thats true. what would you do if i were strapped to your bed? make me wet
You: Get a ham sandwich.
Your conversational partner has disconnected.

I crack myself up.

You: Hello!
Stranger: i believe spring man,and you?
You: I believe fall?
Stranger: do you know spring man?
You: I know spring woman.
You: She bake me some brownies once.
You: I eat them, and then feel funny.
Stranger: right,she is super man 's sister.
You: I think I pooped.
You have disconnected.

Which part? Ham sammich? I'll be laughing about that one all day.

In reply to this comment by eric3579:
Frickin' brilliant! That was just a great way to start my day

In reply to this comment by MarineGunrock:
Stranger: horny?
You: Depends.
Stranger: m or f?
You: m
Stranger: f
You: You must be to start off like that.
Stranger: hahaha you guessed it
Stranger: you?
You: I'm a guy. ALways.
Stranger: haha thats true. what would you do if i were strapped to your bed? make me wet
You: Get a ham sandwich.
Your conversational partner has disconnected.

I crack myself up.

You: Hello!
Stranger: i believe spring man,and you?
You: I believe fall?
Stranger: do you know spring man?
You: I know spring woman.
You: She bake me some brownies once.
You: I eat them, and then feel funny.
Stranger: right,she is super man 's sister.
You: I think I pooped.
You have disconnected.

Frickin' brilliant! That was just a great way to start my day

In reply to this comment by MarineGunrock:
Stranger: horny?
You: Depends.
Stranger: m or f?
You: m
Stranger: f
You: You must be to start off like that.
Stranger: hahaha you guessed it
Stranger: you?
You: I'm a guy. ALways.
Stranger: haha thats true. what would you do if i were strapped to your bed? make me wet
You: Get a ham sandwich.
Your conversational partner has disconnected.

I crack myself up.

You: Hello!
Stranger: i believe spring man,and you?
You: I believe fall?
Stranger: do you know spring man?
You: I know spring woman.
You: She bake me some brownies once.
You: I eat them, and then feel funny.
Stranger: right,she is super man 's sister.
You: I think I pooped.
You have disconnected.

Stranger: horny?
You: Depends.
Stranger: m or f?
You: m
Stranger: f
You: You must be to start off like that.
Stranger: hahaha you guessed it
Stranger: you?
You: I'm a guy. ALways.
Stranger: haha thats true. what would you do if i were strapped to your bed? make me wet
You: Get a ham sandwich.
Your conversational partner has disconnected.

I crack myself up.

You: Hello!
Stranger: i believe spring man,and you?
You: I believe fall?
Stranger: do you know spring man?
You: I know spring woman.
You: She bake me some brownies once.
You: I eat them, and then feel funny.
Stranger: right,she is super man 's sister.
You: I think I pooped.
You have disconnected.

>> ^quantumushroom:
You amaze me with your complete lack of looking into ANYTHING QM.
I don't need to look much beyond the Constitution, which says nothing about 'free' healthcare for all or robbing one group of people who worked hard to pay off others who didn't.


Bingo!

You treat the constitution like others (you perhaps also?) treat the bible... your one stop shop for everything. Everything begins and ends with one document and you'll be damned if any further discussion will be had because apparently that document is perfect. (Let's ignore the raft of amendments... they... um... just fine tuning and already perfect document aren't they?)



Have bothered AT ALL to look at other countries that do healthcare a SHITELOAD better than the US? How do you not think it's fair to provide necessary healthcare to everyone in your country? Under what warped logic do you think that only those that can afford it should be able to live, while those that can't die?
How does that work?


Life isn't fair and no amount of government force will make it fair. I wonder if you lefties even know what's going on in America. Socialized medicine practically exists NOW. WTF is Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security? S-Chip? You'd have to work pretty hard to not get the care you need, especialy if 20 million Mexican illegals are getting it.

No one is saying that the US system is GOOD now at all. But what you DO have is the situation where private health companies are consulted BEFORE you get treatment to see if you will be covered for that treatment. THAT is absolutely insane. Look, here in Australia we have public and private... public health guarantees you all the necessary health care you need, and you pay a levee on that in your taxes (Medicare levee), if you take out Private health care (as most do), then you don't have to pay that levee as you are paying your own way via the private insurer. You don't suddenly stop getting public health, just the hospitals get paid by the private insurer rather than the government. Also, private health care gives you elective benefits and better rooms in hospitals etc. (ie. your own room rather than shared). The deal is, you can get better 'extras' etc. surrounding core health care by being on private, but you never miss out on the necessary care by not being able to afford it... and that's the way it should be.


And your intro also speaks of being simple minded also:
Doesn't everyone deserves a free home
There is such a thing as government housing, and it's used by people who have fallen on hard times until they can afford something better. The houses are never fantastic, and you wouldn't want to stay in them, but they provide shelter while you try to pick yourself up... Of course you rally against such ideas and think they'll only be populated by the lazy, and how dare they get a roof over their head when you work for all you have...
I don't object to safety nets, but you know and I know that's not what we're talking about here. Also, with the Christianity bashing that goes on here at liberalsift, I wonder where the morality of the left exists on its own merit? Was every atheist born knowing 'the right thing to do'?

Wah? Huh? I don't get the point of this comment at all. If you're going down that religious path of 'well, I have this book that tells me my morals, and what is right and wrong... you must have no morals and not know what's right and wrong because you don't have a book', then sorry, but that's an insanely stupid tree to be barking up. If you truly believe that you would do 'bad things' if you didn't have the fear of god punishing you for breaking his commandments for doing so then you are a 'bad person'. Most of us don't do 'bad things' because we don't want to hurt other people or make life worse off for others, not due to some selfish fear for ourselves.


Um... ok, if you don't think there's a need for 'soup kitchens' and other such ways for people who have become destitute, then I would LOOOOOVE for you to end up jobless sometime and not have any family support, and then you can say there should be nowhere for those without money to be able to find shelter and food.
I'd friggen love it.
Well that's just fucking wonderful. With all the shit you've been through, you'd rather just wish harm on others that disagree with you, eh?

I didn't wish harm on you. I wished destitution on you (which doesn't have to physically harm you at all, just take your ego down a few notches). I wished that you ended up with no money and therefore be reliant on the very things that you think shouldn't exist, because apparently you lack a iota of empathy and are incapable of ever seeing how someone could end up poor and without help and need some help to get back on track. Sometimes, for some people such as yourself, the only way to get through that 'it's other people' mentality is for it to affect you directly.


You're making shit up that has nothing to do with my argument, so here it is again worded slightly different: is it the government's obligation to provide "free" basic everything ALL the time the way they claim to want to do with healthcare?


No, and no one is suggesting that the government should provide everyone with free everything. What we're saying is access to healthcare should not be dictated by your bank balance. I, because I earn a good wage, should not be able to get a heart replacement if I need it, but let someone else die because they couldn't afford the operation. That just isn't right, and nowhere in the bible does it say anything about looking after only those who can afford it. In fact, I'm pretty sure it talks about taking care of the weak and needy.


automobile No, but free/heavily subsidized public transport works wonders for actually being able to get to... oh, I dunno... jobs.
I'm not against local public transportation. In some places it works, in others it's been an expensive disaster. And it's not my point. But if you think people with no car have a right to a "free" bus, so be it.
No, people who have no access to their own transport through not being able to afford it, despite their best efforts, should be able to use public transport to get around. If you deny people the ability to get around, how are they ever going to get to the jobs to make the money to be able to pay for these things themselves?



(plus for kicks a high-paying job that pays the same whether you're a brain surgeon or sweep floors)?
Now you're just being a douche. You've got no concept of how any of this works do you? You think that those at or under the poverty line just LOVE living in government housing and surviving on handouts... hell, why bother working when life is so grand hey?
You're an idiot. People don't want to remain like that, people never want to GET like that, but some people do, some through no real fault of their own (some by their own fault, but so what). The idea is, you give them a hand through those times until they can once again become a constructive member of society. And people WANT to get a good job and be able to buy their own home/car and feel like they've been productive. I don't know anyone who enjoys relying on the handouts. But I sure as fuck know people who HAVE HAD to at one time or another and are bloody glad those things were in place to catch them during the tough times.
And some of these people now work for multinational companies in technical roles and are doing very well for themselves... because they were helped during the rough patches.
It ends up costing LESS in the long run you know.
Yeah, that's why we're several trillion dollars in debt. I have another theory about those success stories: those people might have made it whether there was government aid available or not.

Um... you're several trillion dollars in debt for many, many reasons, not least of which is the trillions of dollars you spend on your damn military. You can't take anything you don't agree with and try to suggest THAT is why you're in debt... sorry, doesn't work.

And in regards to those that would have made it one way or another... not necessarily so at all, although you'd LOVE to think so, because that's the right wing brain. "Successful people will always be successful with no help from anyone else". Which is a load of crap. SOME people pick themselves up completely independently and become successful with no external help, but ALMOST ALL have support from many places. A particular case I'm thinking of (a friend), spent years being horrendously insecure in themselves and doing f-all for his career and being effectively 'a drain' on society as you would say. But now he earns a good wage and is giving back to society through his taxes, so therefore paying back for his time. He needed that time being supported to get out of that rut. If there was no support... well, I don't know what would have happened to him, but it wouldn't have been nice.


Also... it'd be friggen hilarious if you got some illness that cost an enormous amount of money to treat, and your private health care provider decided that it wasn't covered (as they like to do)... then you'll be bleating that there should be public health.
If an American with a serious illness that requires expensive treatment knocks on Canada's door seeking asylum, do they let him in? Any Canadian sifters, let me know.
If you take nothing else away from this: I don't pretend to have all the answers, while Big Government tyrants do. I oppose socialism in general and in particular this health scam the Obamunists are trying to pass as quickly as possible before the people realize what they thought were brownies are really dog turds.
A government big enough to pay for your kid's "free" health care is also big enough to say, "You're over the limit for treatment costs. Back of the line."


Huh? You've given up again... you've obviously got some hardwired words in your brain that are 'bad':
'Socialism' = bad
'Big Government' = bad
without really thinking through what you're saying.

Saying that a government can turn around and deny care is, well ridiculous when you're comparing it to private companies that do it ROUTINELY. If government does it (please do give me examples where they have... hmmm? I can pull out stupendous amounts of private health examples), then they have public outcry from the country to contend with because it's health care that WE are all paying for. If a private company denies treatment then you'd just say 'Well... it's a free market, go with another provider'.

I really think that you've been taught to believe these right wing mantras but, like most right wingers, you haven't thought through the consequences of those actions AT ALL... You run on an endless loop of 'hard work will get you what you need', whereas we run on one that says 'a fair go for everyone'. Your loop ignores how people get started in the first place, how people need help to get up from being poor and uneducated and pull themselves up to be really productive members of your country. You think that anyone who can't afford to go to university or get healthcare or have a car only lacks those things purely through their own laziness. We think that maybe you help people to have the opportunity to become educated and not be sick, and maybe that gives them a better chance to spend time learning a trade and becoming skilled and earning a great wage and getting their family moving on and up rather than staying poor and a drain on society for ever.

^--- the fuck, you're still here? sigh. not worth the ban attention i guess.

here we go with more inane cutsy-poo comments to win more brownie points before the bullshit starts again.

You amaze me with your complete lack of looking into ANYTHING QM.

I don't need to look much beyond the Constitution, which says nothing about 'free' healthcare for all or robbing one group of people who worked hard to pay off others who didn't.

Have bothered AT ALL to look at other countries that do healthcare a SHITELOAD better than the US? How do you not think it's fair to provide necessary healthcare to everyone in your country? Under what warped logic do you think that only those that can afford it should be able to live, while those that can't die?

How does that work?

Life isn't fair and no amount of government force will make it fair. I wonder if you lefties even know what's going on in America. Socialized medicine practically exists NOW. WTF is Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security? S-Chip? You'd have to work pretty hard to not get the care you need, especialy if 20 million Mexican illegals are getting it.

And your intro also speaks of being simple minded also:
Doesn't everyone deserves a free home
There is such a thing as government housing, and it's used by people who have fallen on hard times until they can afford something better. The houses are never fantastic, and you wouldn't want to stay in them, but they provide shelter while you try to pick yourself up... Of course you rally against such ideas and think they'll only be populated by the lazy, and how dare they get a roof over their head when you work for all you have...

I don't object to safety nets, but you know and I know that's not what we're talking about here. Also, with the Christianity bashing that goes on here at liberalsift, I wonder where the morality of the left exists on its own merit? Was every atheist born knowing 'the right thing to do'?

Um... ok, if you don't think there's a need for 'soup kitchens' and other such ways for people who have become destitute, then I would LOOOOOVE for you to end up jobless sometime and not have any family support, and then you can say there should be nowhere for those without money to be able to find shelter and food.

I'd friggen love it.

Well that's just fucking wonderful. With all the shit you've been through, you'd rather just wish harm on others that disagree with you, eh?

You're making shit up that has nothing to do with my argument, so here it is again worded slightly different: is it the government's obligation to provide "free" basic everything ALL the time the way they claim to want to do with healthcare?

automobile No, but free/heavily subsidized public transport works wonders for actually being able to get to... oh, I dunno... jobs.

I'm not against local public transportation. In some places it works, in others it's been an expensive disaster. And it's not my point. But if you think people with no car have a right to a "free" bus, so be it.

(plus for kicks a high-paying job that pays the same whether you're a brain surgeon or sweep floors)?

Now you're just being a douche. You've got no concept of how any of this works do you? You think that those at or under the poverty line just LOVE living in government housing and surviving on handouts... hell, why bother working when life is so grand hey?

You're an idiot. People don't want to remain like that, people never want to GET like that, but some people do, some through no real fault of their own (some by their own fault, but so what). The idea is, you give them a hand through those times until they can once again become a constructive member of society. And people WANT to get a good job and be able to buy their own home/car and feel like they've been productive. I don't know anyone who enjoys relying on the handouts. But I sure as fuck know people who HAVE HAD to at one time or another and are bloody glad those things were in place to catch them during the tough times.

And some of these people now work for multinational companies in technical roles and are doing very well for themselves... because they were helped during the rough patches.

It ends up costing LESS in the long run you know.

Yeah, that's why we're several trillion dollars in debt. I have another theory about those success stories: those people might have made it whether there was government aid available or not.

Also... it'd be friggen hilarious if you got some illness that cost an enormous amount of money to treat, and your private health care provider decided that it wasn't covered (as they like to do)... then you'll be bleating that there should be public health.

If an American with a serious illness that requires expensive treatment knocks on Canada's door seeking asylum, do they let him in? Any Canadian sifters, let me know.

If you take nothing else away from this: I don't pretend to have all the answers, while Big Government tyrants do. I oppose socialism in general and in particular this health scam the Obamunists are trying to pass as quickly as possible before the people realize what they thought were brownies are really dog turds.

A government big enough to pay for your kid's "free" health care is also big enough to say, "You're over the limit for treatment costs. Back of the line."

im not surprised QM tries to gain brownie points to offset his toxic agitations.... but im also not fooled or amused by such attempts at this point. FUQ. you dont get it both ways. see: BillO.