I think my first exposure to Nietzsche was a little dual paperback with "The Antichrist" and "Beyond Good and Evil" and it really changed my life, one of the few books that really touched me.

>> ^ctrlaltbleach:
Its depressing to me however to believe that some people were born to live a miserable life just to die and show nothing for it. Some people don't even make it past childhood thats not fair and its very disheartening. And what about people who are enslaved and tortured their whole lives by cruel masters?

Isn't it more depressing to believe in a God who would sit around and let that shit happen?

I think my main reason for believing there is a god is that my mind cannot cope with the thought of their being nothing when I die.

What was it like before you were born? It wasn't that bad was it? I wouldn't mind going back to that state when I die. Also, living in heaven for eternity would suck. You'd get bored after a few million years and the rest of eternity would be fucking hell.

Also, anyone read what Nietzsche had to say about the death of God, Nihilism, and the Ubermensch?

only 5? bleh.

- Notes from the Underground - Dostoevsky
- Thus Spoke Zarathustra - Nietzsche
- Othello - Shakespeare
- The Stranger - Albert Camus
- On Having no Head - Hardind, Douglas
....http://www.goodreads.com/review/list/877326?shelf=favorites

>> ^peggedbea:
also, nietzsche=extremely overrated. hegel=extremely underrated

Haha! While I can agree that Nietzsche is indeed overrated since his post-WWII revival, Hegel has been overrated since 1807. Not to mention the fact that every time Hegel spoke about science he was dead wrong. At least Nietzsche kept his mouth shut.

For example Gauss said that "Noah got drunk only one time, to become then, according to the Scriptures, a judicious man, while the insanities of Hegel in the Doctoral Dissertation, where he criticizes Newton and questions the utility of a search for new planets are still wisdom if one compares them with his later remarks."

And to answer HadouKen24, Nietzsche was very much influenced by Dotoevsky, naming him his only reference in psychology. Schopenhauer almost deified Goethe, especially his literary works. And Kierkegaard was pretty much unknown until the first German translations of his work in the 1910s.

When you say that Nietzsche is overrated you have to consider the time period that he was developing those ideas within.

People burn Harry Potter books today in the name of god. And if you think that what they are doing is wrong, I would pay some respect to nietzsche. Not that he deserves all of that credit, but he certainly was a pioneer in existentialism.

also, nietzsche=extremely overrated. hegel=extremely underrated

Upvote as much for Douglas Adams as for the human face it puts on Dawkins.

Dunno why Adams thought that the novelists were the people to turn to in the 19th century, though. Philosophers like Hegel, Schopenhauer, Kierkegaard, and Nietzsche had much more interesting things to say about the big questions.

He's brilliant, and it's a shame that his vision will probably never be embraced by civilization at large.

I made a visit to the Venus Project and met him a few months ago, and he's a wonderful man. When you're in his presence you'd never guess that he was 92. He's so full of energy and enthusiasm.

In reply to this comment by Irishman:
Man, I was going to send you a link to the Venus Project in my last reply! I have seen no better vision for a harmonious civilisation that this, removing the monetary system wipes out so many problems. The need to make a profit is driving the entire planet to destruction. When I started reading Jacques Fresco's stuff, it was like somebody just switched the lights on.

It opened my eyes to the stuff we're being fed via the news about resources running out, food running out blah blah blah - there are enough resources, enough skill and enough talent to make this vision work right now, it is the rich and powerful who stand in the way.

In reply to this comment by HollywoodBob:
There's a gentleman here in Florida that I've grown to thoroughly admire. He's a futurist by the name Jacques Fresco and he's designed a future free of much of the bullshit that we deal with today, a global community with a cybernated resource based society. In his world money doesn't exist, the government is run by computer constructs administered by the best and brightest(not the power hungry), and industry has been automated to allow people the freedom to work on the betterment of mankind. You might enjoy checking him out. www.thevenusproject.com

In reply to this comment by Irishman:
You assume correctly Bob - born, bred, still living and working in Ireland

I was having this exact discussion with a friend tonight, he is of the opinion that as soon as you kill one single person you are just as bad as the oppressor. There's no arguing against that of course - you *are* just as bad. But it's a reaction against oppression that with hindsight is seen to be inevitable, all the way back through historical conflict.

Government by its very nature can never have a utopian worldview. All forms of hierarchical control will not achieve this, whether they be democracy, socialism or communism. They are all different flavours of the monkey-brain male dominator culture.

That leaves us with anarchy, which to me means every individual pursuing their own desires with no outside control, restraint or boundary. This is in fact how we lived for many hundreds of thousands of years, this is our paradise lost, our ancient utopia that can be unearthed and discovered through many ancient and sacred texts...



In reply to this comment by HollywoodBob:
I'll agree with you that oppression leads to revolution, and Kennedy's quote fits the situation in Ireland quite well. The British refused to deal with Irish independence diplomatically and fairly, so they brought the ensuing violence upon themselves. Oppression isn't a necessity of life though. Nations can get along just fine without needing to oppress/occupy other nations.

I'm assuming you're country would be Ireland? It's terrible what the British government did there. It was needless, and really just a complete waste of life.

I keep hoping the leaders of this world will grow up and get a more utopian world view. If nations did more to better the world as a whole than just protecting their own interests the world would be a much better place.

In reply to this comment by Irishman:
That's exactly how I used to think, until I started studying the history of my own country.

Oppression leads to revolution, always has done and always will. The monster is he who does nothing...

In reply to this comment by HollywoodBob:
I would say that if you kill innocent people, regardless of your motives, you are a monster.

Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable. - John F. Kennedy

He's right in that if peace doesn't work, violence is your next course of action. But he's wrong on the necessity of revolution.

In reply to this comment by Irishman:
Fighting against oppression with violence is not becoming Nietzsche's monster at all. Fighting oppression will always be as violent as it needs to be.

When peaceful revolution is impossible, violent revolution is inevitable. I forget who said that...

In reply to this comment by HollywoodBob:
In reply to this comment by Irishman:
And yeah, people need to get themselves over Nietzsche and start thinking for themselves again.

I'm not a big fan of Nietzsche, I just like that quote and it fits the point I was trying to make.

Man, I was going to send you a link to the Venus Project in my last reply! I have seen no better vision for a harmonious civilisation that this, removing the monetary system wipes out so many problems. The need to make a profit is driving the entire planet to destruction. When I started reading Jacques Fresco's stuff, it was like somebody just switched the lights on.

It opened my eyes to the stuff we're being fed via the news about resources running out, food running out blah blah blah - there are enough resources, enough skill and enough talent to make this vision work right now, it is the rich and powerful who stand in the way.

In reply to this comment by HollywoodBob:
There's a gentleman here in Florida that I've grown to thoroughly admire. He's a futurist by the name Jacques Fresco and he's designed a future free of much of the bullshit that we deal with today, a global community with a cybernated resource based society. In his world money doesn't exist, the government is run by computer constructs administered by the best and brightest(not the power hungry), and industry has been automated to allow people the freedom to work on the betterment of mankind. You might enjoy checking him out. www.thevenusproject.com

In reply to this comment by Irishman:
You assume correctly Bob - born, bred, still living and working in Ireland

I was having this exact discussion with a friend tonight, he is of the opinion that as soon as you kill one single person you are just as bad as the oppressor. There's no arguing against that of course - you *are* just as bad. But it's a reaction against oppression that with hindsight is seen to be inevitable, all the way back through historical conflict.

Government by its very nature can never have a utopian worldview. All forms of hierarchical control will not achieve this, whether they be democracy, socialism or communism. They are all different flavours of the monkey-brain male dominator culture.

That leaves us with anarchy, which to me means every individual pursuing their own desires with no outside control, restraint or boundary. This is in fact how we lived for many hundreds of thousands of years, this is our paradise lost, our ancient utopia that can be unearthed and discovered through many ancient and sacred texts...



In reply to this comment by HollywoodBob:
I'll agree with you that oppression leads to revolution, and Kennedy's quote fits the situation in Ireland quite well. The British refused to deal with Irish independence diplomatically and fairly, so they brought the ensuing violence upon themselves. Oppression isn't a necessity of life though. Nations can get along just fine without needing to oppress/occupy other nations.

I'm assuming you're country would be Ireland? It's terrible what the British government did there. It was needless, and really just a complete waste of life.

I keep hoping the leaders of this world will grow up and get a more utopian world view. If nations did more to better the world as a whole than just protecting their own interests the world would be a much better place.

In reply to this comment by Irishman:
That's exactly how I used to think, until I started studying the history of my own country.

Oppression leads to revolution, always has done and always will. The monster is he who does nothing...

In reply to this comment by HollywoodBob:
I would say that if you kill innocent people, regardless of your motives, you are a monster.

Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable. - John F. Kennedy

He's right in that if peace doesn't work, violence is your next course of action. But he's wrong on the necessity of revolution.

In reply to this comment by Irishman:
Fighting against oppression with violence is not becoming Nietzsche's monster at all. Fighting oppression will always be as violent as it needs to be.

When peaceful revolution is impossible, violent revolution is inevitable. I forget who said that...

In reply to this comment by HollywoodBob:
In reply to this comment by Irishman:
And yeah, people need to get themselves over Nietzsche and start thinking for themselves again.

I'm not a big fan of Nietzsche, I just like that quote and it fits the point I was trying to make.

There's a gentleman here in Florida that I've grown to thoroughly admire. He's a futurist by the name Jacques Fresco and he's designed a future free of much of the bullshit that we deal with today, a global community with a cybernated resource based society. In his world money doesn't exist, the government is run by computer constructs administered by the best and brightest(not the power hungry), and industry has been automated to allow people the freedom to work on the betterment of mankind. You might enjoy checking him out. www.thevenusproject.com

In reply to this comment by Irishman:
You assume correctly Bob - born, bred, still living and working in Ireland

I was having this exact discussion with a friend tonight, he is of the opinion that as soon as you kill one single person you are just as bad as the oppressor. There's no arguing against that of course - you *are* just as bad. But it's a reaction against oppression that with hindsight is seen to be inevitable, all the way back through historical conflict.

Government by its very nature can never have a utopian worldview. All forms of hierarchical control will not achieve this, whether they be democracy, socialism or communism. They are all different flavours of the monkey-brain male dominator culture.

That leaves us with anarchy, which to me means every individual pursuing their own desires with no outside control, restraint or boundary. This is in fact how we lived for many hundreds of thousands of years, this is our paradise lost, our ancient utopia that can be unearthed and discovered through many ancient and sacred texts...



In reply to this comment by HollywoodBob:
I'll agree with you that oppression leads to revolution, and Kennedy's quote fits the situation in Ireland quite well. The British refused to deal with Irish independence diplomatically and fairly, so they brought the ensuing violence upon themselves. Oppression isn't a necessity of life though. Nations can get along just fine without needing to oppress/occupy other nations.

I'm assuming you're country would be Ireland? It's terrible what the British government did there. It was needless, and really just a complete waste of life.

I keep hoping the leaders of this world will grow up and get a more utopian world view. If nations did more to better the world as a whole than just protecting their own interests the world would be a much better place.

In reply to this comment by Irishman:
That's exactly how I used to think, until I started studying the history of my own country.

Oppression leads to revolution, always has done and always will. The monster is he who does nothing...

In reply to this comment by HollywoodBob:
I would say that if you kill innocent people, regardless of your motives, you are a monster.

Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable. - John F. Kennedy

He's right in that if peace doesn't work, violence is your next course of action. But he's wrong on the necessity of revolution.

In reply to this comment by Irishman:
Fighting against oppression with violence is not becoming Nietzsche's monster at all. Fighting oppression will always be as violent as it needs to be.

When peaceful revolution is impossible, violent revolution is inevitable. I forget who said that...

In reply to this comment by HollywoodBob:
In reply to this comment by Irishman:
And yeah, people need to get themselves over Nietzsche and start thinking for themselves again.

I'm not a big fan of Nietzsche, I just like that quote and it fits the point I was trying to make.

You assume correctly Bob - born, bred, still living and working in Ireland

I was having this exact discussion with a friend tonight, he is of the opinion that as soon as you kill one single person you are just as bad as the oppressor. There's no arguing against that of course - you *are* just as bad. But it's a reaction against oppression that with hindsight is seen to be inevitable, all the way back through historical conflict.

Government by its very nature can never have a utopian worldview. All forms of hierarchical control will not achieve this, whether they be democracy, socialism or communism. They are all different flavours of the monkey-brain male dominator culture.

That leaves us with anarchy, which to me means every individual pursuing their own desires with no outside control, restraint or boundary. This is in fact how we lived for many hundreds of thousands of years, this is our paradise lost, our ancient utopia that can be unearthed and discovered through many ancient and sacred texts...



In reply to this comment by HollywoodBob:
I'll agree with you that oppression leads to revolution, and Kennedy's quote fits the situation in Ireland quite well. The British refused to deal with Irish independence diplomatically and fairly, so they brought the ensuing violence upon themselves. Oppression isn't a necessity of life though. Nations can get along just fine without needing to oppress/occupy other nations.

I'm assuming you're country would be Ireland? It's terrible what the British government did there. It was needless, and really just a complete waste of life.

I keep hoping the leaders of this world will grow up and get a more utopian world view. If nations did more to better the world as a whole than just protecting their own interests the world would be a much better place.

In reply to this comment by Irishman:
That's exactly how I used to think, until I started studying the history of my own country.

Oppression leads to revolution, always has done and always will. The monster is he who does nothing...

In reply to this comment by HollywoodBob:
I would say that if you kill innocent people, regardless of your motives, you are a monster.

Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable. - John F. Kennedy

He's right in that if peace doesn't work, violence is your next course of action. But he's wrong on the necessity of revolution.

In reply to this comment by Irishman:
Fighting against oppression with violence is not becoming Nietzsche's monster at all. Fighting oppression will always be as violent as it needs to be.

When peaceful revolution is impossible, violent revolution is inevitable. I forget who said that...

In reply to this comment by HollywoodBob:
In reply to this comment by Irishman:
And yeah, people need to get themselves over Nietzsche and start thinking for themselves again.

I'm not a big fan of Nietzsche, I just like that quote and it fits the point I was trying to make.

I'll agree with you that oppression leads to revolution, and Kennedy's quote fits the situation in Ireland quite well. The British refused to deal with Irish independence diplomatically and fairly, so they brought the ensuing violence upon themselves. Oppression isn't a necessity of life though. Nations can get along just fine without needing to oppress/occupy other nations.

I'm assuming you're country would be Ireland? It's terrible what the British government did there. It was needless, and really just a complete waste of life.

I keep hoping the leaders of this world will grow up and get a more utopian world view. If nations did more to better the world as a whole than just protecting their own interests the world would be a much better place.

In reply to this comment by Irishman:
That's exactly how I used to think, until I started studying the history of my own country.

Oppression leads to revolution, always has done and always will. The monster is he who does nothing...

In reply to this comment by HollywoodBob:
I would say that if you kill innocent people, regardless of your motives, you are a monster.

Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable. - John F. Kennedy

He's right in that if peace doesn't work, violence is your next course of action. But he's wrong on the necessity of revolution.

In reply to this comment by Irishman:
Fighting against oppression with violence is not becoming Nietzsche's monster at all. Fighting oppression will always be as violent as it needs to be.

When peaceful revolution is impossible, violent revolution is inevitable. I forget who said that...

In reply to this comment by HollywoodBob:
In reply to this comment by Irishman:
And yeah, people need to get themselves over Nietzsche and start thinking for themselves again.

I'm not a big fan of Nietzsche, I just like that quote and it fits the point I was trying to make.

That's exactly how I used to think, until I started studying the history of my own country.

Oppression leads to revolution, always has done and always will. The monster is he who does nothing...

In reply to this comment by HollywoodBob:
I would say that if you kill innocent people, regardless of your motives, you are a monster.

Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable. - John F. Kennedy

He's right in that if peace doesn't work, violence is your next course of action. But he's wrong on the necessity of revolution.

In reply to this comment by Irishman:
Fighting against oppression with violence is not becoming Nietzsche's monster at all. Fighting oppression will always be as violent as it needs to be.

When peaceful revolution is impossible, violent revolution is inevitable. I forget who said that...

In reply to this comment by HollywoodBob:
In reply to this comment by Irishman:
And yeah, people need to get themselves over Nietzsche and start thinking for themselves again.

I'm not a big fan of Nietzsche, I just like that quote and it fits the point I was trying to make.

I would say that if you kill innocent people, regardless of your motives, you are a monster.

Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable. - John F. Kennedy

He's right in that if peace doesn't work, violence is your next course of action. But he's wrong on the necessity of revolution.

In reply to this comment by Irishman:
Fighting against oppression with violence is not becoming Nietzsche's monster at all. Fighting oppression will always be as violent as it needs to be.

When peaceful revolution is impossible, violent revolution is inevitable. I forget who said that...

In reply to this comment by HollywoodBob:
In reply to this comment by Irishman:
And yeah, people need to get themselves over Nietzsche and start thinking for themselves again.

I'm not a big fan of Nietzsche, I just like that quote and it fits the point I was trying to make.

Hollywoodbob, by your logic, India should never have followed Gandhi and seceded from the British Empire, since it lead to the Kashmir tensions and nuclear standoff between Pakistan and India. How far back should you go in your time machine to prevent present or past tensions? the big bang?

I submit that if you have something nice, someone else will want to take it, and just giving it away is not a solution, since it never "balances out" anything, as long as you still have something to take. Either be strong enough to defend your stuff personally, or strong enough to instate rule of law collectively. Or starve.

If that's Nietzsche's opinion as well, maybe I should read up on the fellow.

[edit]

*ahem*

"Fellow ANC member Wolfie Kadesh explains the bombing campaign led by Mandela: "When we knew that we going to start on 16 December 1961, to blast the symbolic places of apartheid, like pass offices, native magistrates courts, and things like that ... post offices and ... the government offices. But we were to do it in such a way that nobody would be hurt, nobody would get killed." Mandela said of Wolfie: "His knowledge of warfare and his first hand battle experience were extremely helpful to me."