@enoch

I've been having this back and forth with a guy on another forum. He keeps insisting that because Zimmerman was hurt, he was within his rights to shoot Trayvon under SYG. And I keep trying to point out to him that SYG does not say that, but it falls on deaf ears.

And then it comes to witness testimony being the gospel the witness identified as "John" backs up Zimmerman. But the girlfriend of Trayvon who was on the phone with him is also a witness, but somehow her testimony is no good because she's his girlfriend, or underage, or is "speculation" and if she were really a witness the police would have talked to her, etc, etc.

I mean strictly from how events have been reported. We have Zimmerman's own words, phone call, and actions to judge him by. And with Trayvon all we know is that he's dead, was wearing a hoodie, and was a black teen going to the store and back. Yet somehow Trayvon was doing something wrong because Zimmerman identified him as suspicious. Even though there is AT LEAST one black resident in that neighborhood and being black in the neighborhood should not = auto-suspicion even if it's predominately white.

Zimmerman kept chasing and Trayvon should be covered under the law because of it, we KNOW Zimmerman followed him. He wouldn't have "lost" him if Trayvon hadn't tried to actively avoid him by running away. Running away from a creep is not a crime, following a kid is questionable behavior. More so after he was told not to, and the fact that he's neighborhood watch "leader" and should have known better.

The whole thing smacks of Zimmerman having a chip on his shoulder that he isn't "catching the bad guys" and him acting in accordance with that goal...even if it means forcing an encounter. Perhaps he didn't mean to kill Trayvon, or isn't a racist. But I believe he wanted an encounter to happen so at least one of these "punks/goons/coons" were caught. And then he claimed self defense, when he forced the thing upon an individual who was trying to get away from him. It's just compounded by the fact that Trayvon wasn't of a similar age, weight, and build to Zimmerman. He simply did not have the life experience to temper the encounter against, and Zimmerman should have not pushed it. In a role reversal, I'd have no problem with Zimmerman shooting a teenager who was pursuing him after he ran.....but that's not what happened. He forced it upon Trayvon, and got his ass handed to him and shot out of fear. Which does not excuse his actions leading up to the event, he was not immune under self defense laws until he met criteria.

Actually went and looked up the law. Because as more evidence comes out, I still thought that a teenager being followed by a much older adult (~10 years) should result in that teenager being covered under the SYG (Stand Your Ground) Law.

So looking at the text. Trayvon could use justfied force, in accordance with 776.012 and deadly force if he met the criteria of 776.012 (1). He was the person SYG, being stalked for unknown reason by a complete stranger. This is ignoring Zimmerman's comments and just looking at his actions. He followed a kid heedless of advice and the standard op of a neighborhood watch - call it in and remove yourself if no crime is taking place.

776.032 should not apply to Zimmerman, because he caused the confrontation by following. There was no defensive nature in stalking someone to the point of them defending themself from you.

776.041 could apply to Zimmerman as he is the clear aggressor (Again lots of people feel that aggressor means you threw the first punch, that's not what the law says, it's all about reasonable belief that you are in danger and I think being stalked = reasonable). The police had to verify that under 776.041 (1) wasn't happening, which I don't think it is easily proven that Zimmerman was commiting a hate crime via the stalking/profiling/shooting. 776.041 (2) only grants immunity if (A) OR (B) are fulfilled. I have not seen that the police have established (A) or (B) were fulfilled.

(A) Did Zimmerman exhaust every reasonable means of escape the danger of Trayvon? Does yelling help count? My argument here is that persistent following and disregard of advice of written material for conduct PLUS verbal command from dispatch shows that he is incapable of acting reasonably. The reasonable act would be to call it in and leave it the fuck alone. Plus he had no reason to be out of his vehicle after Trayvon.

(B) There is no evidence that Zimmerman tried to withdraw from conflict. There is evidence he was getting thrashed on the ground by his victim after he forced the confrontation on Trayvon, but not that he tried to de-escalate the encounter by either (A) or (B).

So again, I wonder why Zimmerman was let go when he there is no evidence to suggest he didn't force the encounter by his rash and impulsive decisions to get the people "who always get away". Then you count the "fucking coons", which according to many is "fucking punks" or "fucking goons" because "coon" is something no one under 40 has said in a decade. But coons sounds nothing like punks and goons is what all the kids are saying these days (sarcasm).


I've had this discussion on other sites. And overall people seem to keep preaching that you should apply the evidence and the evidence shows that Zimmerman was attacked. Following isn't illegal and questioning someone isn't illegal, and calling the police isn't illegal, and saying "fucking coons" isn't illegal, and ignoring advice of dispatch isn't illegal, and using lethal force in defense of yourself isn't illegal, and.....blah. But taken together, it shows that Zimmerman did a lot of stupid shit to provoke an incident that WOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED if a reasonable and rational person had been in his place. And according to the SYG law, Martin was covered under it more so than Zimmerman. Yet far too many people are all about believing the police THIS TIME because......of some reason...whether it be Zimmerman is white, an adult, or is alive to "say so". Yet Martin is unbelievable because he is black, a teen, or hit Zimmerman (many believe unprovoked at that).

Over all, it has a lot of earmarks of a case of road rage. Where Martin does something to upset Zimmerman. Zimmerman follows Martin, violence goes down. In most cases I've heard, the guy who does the following and forces an encounter = guilty. Because it's unreasonable anger/decision making leading up to the event and there may not have been an offense in the first place...especially because there's no evidence of an offense to require that kind of action on the part of the guy following you to your home, work, or whatever destination...getting out and starting shit.


2011 Florida Statutes CHAPTER 776 JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE[14]

776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.

(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.

(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).

776.041 Use of force by aggressor. —The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

Getting hung up on particulars is what the legal system is for. People all over the world expressing interest in this are losing site of the main point: Zimmerman shot an unarmed seventeen-year-old in his own neighborhood. The confrontation was a result of an unofficial neighborhood watch volunteer doing everything that a neighborhood watch volunteer should never do.

He should have been arrested, no question.

Oh, there was one eyewitness? Great, release the suspect pending trial and let the witness take the stand at the appropriate time. The actions of the police in sending a narcotics detective to a homicide scene, and their statement that Zimmerman (who had been arrested for assaulting a police officer previously) had a "squeaky clean record", are reason enough for officials to have listened to the pleas of the family to arrest the suspect.

So Bobknight, any civilian with a gun can stalk and kill anyone else, as long as they claim they saw a gun? This was ridiculous enough when uniformed cops did it. But now I can carry and get away with murder as long as I'm the only witness?

And what about Trevan's right to defend himself? Some strange, big, armed guy was stalking and chasing him; what would you tell your teenage son to do. Seems like the teenager had more to fear than this neighborhood watch clod.>> ^bobknight33:

Quit your raciest rants. Just the guy is non black does not give anyone a free pass out of jail.
You don't know what happened so keep you shit to yourself.
Maybe the guy though he had a gun I don't know, you don't know and we don't know. Time will tell.
Being 1/2 the size don't mean jack. An 8 year old with a gun is just as deadly as a 17 or 35 year old.
>> ^Drax:
>> ^bobknight33:
Both left and right smear facts when its convenient and both side are smearing this story for all its worth.
I don't think all the facts are in. I don't know who is right or wrong. All I know is that sadly there is a grieving family who lost their son.
Hopefully ideology won't get in the way of facts.

Yeah, it's certainly a fact that an unarmed teenage boy of his size needed to be shot in the chest with a gun in order to be dealt with.
So many in fact that there's no reason to detain the non-black person at all. Yeah.

Fuckin' Mexican Hispanic-neighborhood-watches, how do they work?

>> ^VoodooV:

Personally, this makes me hate gated communities more than anything. Forget racism. Gated communities are just breeding grounds for that type of mentality that says anyone who doesn't look or act or makes as much money as us is suspicious or bad.
When you live in a community like that...you ARE in the bubble, you're out of touch, you're not a participant in the daily trials and struggles of the rest of the world.
To me this really isn't about racism, sure there is an undercurrent of racism, but IMO it's mostly about the evils that happen when someone is given power without the maturity to use it wisely.
I googled the incident and one thing TYT appears to have left out is that reports do seem to indicate that the two guys had a fight before the shooting so it wasn't like the neighborhood watch guy just casually strolled up and shot him for no reason.
Still though. Neighborhood watch guy was armed, kid wasn't and I highly doubt there was any threat serious enough to warrant self defense with fatal results.
One thing I was surprised to learn from the other article was that the neighborhood watch guy was only 28. I have to admit, I assumed it was some crusty, bitter old man.


My parents live in a gated community. They don't understand why I find the whole concept repulsive. It's all about fear of the "other", race, class, age, religion or whatever. We do live in Canada so one can be reasonably sure of not being shot by the neighbours, even if the mentality is the same.

This incident still fits the definition of classic racism- it's hard to imagine the kid being dead if he were white.

>> ^VoodooV:

Personally, this makes me hate gated communities more than anything. Forget racism. Gated communities are just breeding grounds for that type of mentality that says anyone who doesn't look or act or makes as much money as us is suspicious or bad.
When you live in a community like that...you ARE in the bubble, you're out of touch, you're not a participant in the daily trials and struggles of the rest of the world.
To me this really isn't about racism, sure there is an undercurrent of racism, but IMO it's mostly about the evils that happen when someone is given power without the maturity to use it wisely.
I googled the incident and one thing TYT appears to have left out is that reports do seem to indicate that the two guys had a fight before the shooting so it wasn't like the neighborhood watch guy just casually strolled up and shot him for no reason.
Still though. Neighborhood watch guy was armed, kid wasn't and I highly doubt there was any threat serious enough to warrant self defense with fatal results.
One thing I was surprised to learn from the other article was that the neighborhood watch guy was only 28. I have to admit, I assumed it was some crusty, bitter old man.


It's mentioned near the end that they got into a scuffle.

heh....even mall cops and neighborhood watch yokels can execute suspicious people without due process in America.

Personally, this makes me hate gated communities more than anything. Forget racism. Gated communities are just breeding grounds for that type of mentality that says anyone who doesn't look or act or makes as much money as us is suspicious or bad.

When you live in a community like that...you ARE in the bubble, you're out of touch, you're not a participant in the daily trials and struggles of the rest of the world.

To me this really isn't about racism, sure there is an undercurrent of racism, but IMO it's mostly about the evils that happen when someone is given power without the maturity to use it wisely.

I googled the incident and one thing TYT appears to have left out is that reports do seem to indicate that the two guys had a fight before the shooting so it wasn't like the neighborhood watch guy just casually strolled up and shot him for no reason.

Still though. Neighborhood watch guy was armed, kid wasn't and I highly doubt there was any threat serious enough to warrant self defense with fatal results.

One thing I was surprised to learn from the other article was that the neighborhood watch guy was only 28. I have to admit, I assumed it was some crusty, bitter old man.

So true, flying is not a right, it's a privilege, just like leaving your house whenever you want or speaking your mind.

"America is now under martial law
Stay in your home
Do not attempt contact with loved ones,
insurance agents, or attorneys
Do not attempt to think or depression may occur
Stay in your homes
Curfew is at 7 p.m. sharp, after work
Anyone caught outside the gates of their
subdivision sectors after curfew, will be shot
Remain calm
Do not panic
Your neighborhood watch officer will be by
to collect urine samples in the morning
Anyone caught interferring with the collection
of urine samples will be shot
Stay in your homes
Remain calm
The number one enemy of progress is question
National security is more important than individual will
All sports broadcasts will proceed as normal
No more than two people may gather anywhere without permission
Use only the drugs prescribed by your boss or supervisor
Be happy
Obey all orders without question
Be happy
At last, everything is done for you"

Ah yes. The Bundeswehr. Germanies nationwide neighborhood watch system that's supposed to stall the enemy until the military arrives.

Aren't they criminals sad about the new neighborhood watch sign?

It's difficult to roast you, thesnipe. You have been here quite some time and, as in the real world, you have found it hard to develop a personality recognized by average social mores-This may be the direct result of having stayed indoors to recapture some childhood you never want to abandon(coaching the mighty Ducks), your fetish for doe-eyed Japanamation babes (androgynous males with swords for cocks), or perhaps due to some horrible birth defect (assinchairitis). Nevertheless, here you are to burden our minds with the reality that Jersey is still going strong, cranking out the best of the best-falling close to the nest.

I had a roommate from Jersey once (can't recall which exit) He was a dedicated worker, paid his rent on time, very tolerant of most of my vices (except for unsolicited critiques of his music) and a girlfriend that had multiple orgasms , each and every time she thought of sex, which he did not deserve, I might add. He worked all day, 9-5, I was off 3 off 4 alternating weeks, and yadda yadda-ANYHOW, I remember one thing about him and most New Joisians......cheesy. Cheesy tastes in just about everything.
Speaking of which, thanks for the 2-3 hrs of mixing last night, kept up some groovy sounds fro the evening's activities,...... get a day job.

Neighborhood watch can get exciting-thesnipe tells me that from his bedroom window in the burbs, he has spotted all manner of nefarious activity, usually involving minorities, and children of adjacent homes. Survivalist that he is, he keeps his replicas locked, loaded, chambered and bored-

All seriousness here, my advise to you my friend, if you really want a hot Japanese goddess, is to get yer white(FABRIC-EMBOSSED)ass to the mainland....they are hungry for men that treat their women like princesses, you should be able to find one the minute you step off a train in Osaka-they are waiting for you, ripe for the pikkin's, what the FuCK!!, are you doing in Jersey???!!!
What a nice fella, thesnipe has been a great pal for me here on the sift, hope to meet ya someday-sooner than you imagine, perhaps.

Cheers guido.....isn't it about time to spring for some cornrows or dreads-or maybe Whal or Oster can help you break out. BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZz

"And all this recent "surge" and the influx of new troops to Iraq will just get our countrymen killed faster, because more troops will be pushed to the battlefield without proper training."

I don't think that is really true when it comes down to it. I get the argument in theory, but I don't think it's supported in real life. I have several family members in the armed forces and they are very well trained. The current crisis has only strengthen our training programs, not weakened them. Our military is basically the most trained and skilled in the world with a few exceptions. Sending more of our very well trained troops into hostile territory, doesn't mean we need to rush some through the process. We have a large military... volunteers only I might add, unlike most countries. We're also the most well-equipped in the world.

In addition, the more secure Iraq becomes, the more people we can bring home. Things have been looking better lately and even Bush said that troop withdrawals are finally looking likely in the next months. Iraqis that have attacked us in the past are fighting against Al Qaieda instead of us, wanting their streets free of bombs and chaos. Due to our recent change of strategy from a broad "attack the terrorists" approach to a street-by-street "keep the peace" approach has convince many ordinary Iraqis that we are there to secure the country and help the ordinary folks there. We used to just shoot at the enemy, now we are assigning people and units to basically spend all their time in one area getting to know the people and getting to gain their trust and hope. They reach the ordinary folks and play "neighborhood-watch" for them while they're stationed there. At that point the folks living there tend to have the strength to join us in the fight... if at least as informants... against the bombings and terror that plagues their streets. When they know we are not the enemy, they join us against who they KNOW are their enemies. Reports are saying we may be able to leave Iraqi security entirely to the Iraqis in as early as 12-18 months... which really is pretty early when you're thinking of what we were up against when we went there in the first place.

I'm not disturbed by people wanting out of Iraq. I'm disturbed by people who want to surrender and people who want us to lose on principle. Wanting your own nation to lose just isn't right. If you disagree with your country enough to want it to lose a war, it might be time to leave. I hear New Zealand is beautiful.

I know the Sift is LOADED with pretty radical liberals, but I don't think anything I said was too outrageous. I don't agree with Bush most of the time. I don't think he's a good president. But, I'm not ready to throw up the white flag on what is our single most important fight since WWII. I personally think that a secure, free Iraq is worth a tremendous price. If I could die today in order to know Iraq would be free and secure, I'd do it. It is just too important to the world and the advance of the middle east. There is too much untapped prosperity there to let it go to waste in constant dictatorial squander.

...I was looking for the video about the troops' change of strategy to that of helping the little neighborhoods and I haven't found it of yet, but if I do, I'll try and sift it here to let you all see it and judge for yourselves.