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Nooooooo.
Wanting to sacrifice a few lambs on the altar of revenge proves it's not about fairness or equality, it's about bitterness, payback, and division. That loses far more people than it gains, and creates a reason to fight against #metoo. Fight that desire, please.

The best way to avoid going over the line is clearly defining where that line is, for everyone. Discuss it, don't just blindly cross it to everyone's detriment.
Sexual line crossing is what the movement is fighting, if it turns to line crossing itself, it's useless except as a tool to divide us.

Btw...men get harassed and raped by women too. #metoo

When #metoo first gained ground, I was in the camp of "Matt Damonism", trying to find reasonable grounds. Saying Ansari's bad date shouldn't be likened to rape, etc. etc.

Now though... maybe we need some "sacrificial lambs" to get the real douchebags onside. Fear is an awesome motivator and causes lovely attention focus. The best way to avoid going "over the line" is to not go anywhere near it. If you don't know where it is, distance is your only safe choice.

I feel I should offer explanation for my confusion....especially since I don't think I'm alone in what I thought.
I only knew what tv news had said about Aziz, which was nothing like the article. I'm not a fan, so I know nothing else about him beyond a few tv appearances and his nerdy image.
TV implied a normal date, followed by consensual, but awful, sex, and didn't reflect her accusations in the least.
This written described behaviour wouldn't be acceptable with an open minded prostitute, forget a date.

But, I think this spotlights the problem with not making distinctions, it allowed the day long argument without ever discussing actual facts and accusations, because without distinctions, it didn't matter if he was just a bumbler who's bad at sex or an aggressive monster.

I think there needs to be a clear line set for #metoo (though I'm unsure how or exactly where that line belongs) so it cannot be painted as just bitter people seeking revenge for a bad date.
That is how the Aziz thing looked without reading the article and just going by "news".

Yes, rational people who DO insist on distinctions have rallied to Aziz, because he is not an abuser, but you would have us all ignore that and ruin him.

If there's a line, you make distinctions based of level of offence.

From what I've heard he's accused of, I've had far worse from girlfriends who didn't know what men liked. He was handsy in bed and bad at sex. Have you heard otherwise?

What I find unacceptable is her not telling him there's a problem, clearly when subtlety failed, but expecting him to act as if she had, and using #metoo to amplify his lackluster performance and make him guilty of sex crimes by association.
What's more unacceptable is the movement to deny gradients of evil so he IS guilty of sex crimes by their estimation for being inexperienced with sex.

I have yet to hear a single thing he did with bad intent or in any way criminal or even ungentlemanly, just inexperienced or plain bad in bed. He called/texted her respectfully thinking she had a great time, and seemed shocked she hadn't. Maybe there's stuff I don't know about this case? It sure sounds like a failure to communicate, which I place on her shoulders.

Who is Grace again? His accuser?

Sure, but why does he then spend the rest of the argument talking about how one isn't as bad as the other?

It just feels like making excuses.

Yeah, we get it. Rape > groping > other dumb shit.

Mike Pence is not as bad as ISIS. There, I said it. Congratulations on passing the lowest bar possible. I still don't want him as president.

Even if Minnie Driver makes a stupid comment, she's not a spokesperson for everyone who supports #metoo.

The fundamental point to me is that senator's quote.
"I think when we start having to talk about the differences between sexual assault and sexual harassment and unwanted groping you are having the wrong conversation.... You need to draw a line in the sand and say none of it is O.K. None of it is acceptable"

So Bill wants to have "an additional conversation". Ok, WHY? What is driving this additional conversation? Why do we need to have it and is it distracting from the more important conversation we should be having?

I'm not worried about the distinction between the varying levels of assault, except as a means for deciding how to deal with the perpetrator.

But that's not the conversation that's happening at the moment. If Aziz Ansari ends up sharing a cell with Harvey Weinstein, I will 100% stand up and say "hang the fuck on, those two are NOT equivalent". But in terms of saying "stop being a dick", yeah, I'm happy to say that to both of them.

I know that you and @newtboy and @Payback understand that groping and harassment (even if they are not as heinous as rape) are things you shouldn't do. That's 'cos you're decent human beings.

But you guys are not the people we need to talk to.

No, you miss the point.
Distinctions are important.
It matters hugely, recognizing the difference between violent rape and an uninvited shoulder rub, just as it matters making the distinction between a spanking and attempted murder....not just legally but rationally.

I wholeheartedly disagree that making those distinctions about gradients of wrongness in any way denies the ability to see that both are wrong.....except for the brainless who can't do both.

Public shaming IS a sentence, one that harms your job, finances, family, and future. I have no problem with fair public shaming, but lumping a bad date in with real rapists is as fair as lumping you in with kidnappers and murderers because you slapped a disobedient child's behind.

He denies he did anything to intentionally make her uncomfortable or pressure her, which is what she accuses him of.

NO SIR. THAT IS YOUR POSITION, you said until overboard sentencing becomes a problem, there's no distinction needed between bad sex and forced sex.
Yes, it's not cool, but it's also not abuse unless it is.

If, like this woman, she #metoo'd that you were an octopus that ignored all her nonverbal signals to stop, your denial wouldn't mean much, and most people would just call you a rapist....just like his denial means nothing to you and you're more than willing to let him be lumped in with rapists and abusers.

You lumped them together in your post about how making distinctions is out of fashion. It's like you said stop eating broccoli, sugar, and bacon, then balked when I said broccoli is good for you, you only meant deep fried candied broccoli. Come on.

Don't expect me to read what you mean and ignore what you write...I absolutely hate that.
Don't be sexually aggressive...do be weird.

Yes, distinctions matter immensely.

No, grading offences is proper, otherwise you put rape and going Dutch on a date at the same level because they both upset the date.

If the person goes on a long date with you, accepts an invitation to your bed, undressed and engages in sex, asks you to slow down a bit (which means continue, slower, which you do), and continues, sleeps over, and only later complains, maybe relationships aren't for HER. Her date did absolutely nothing wrong. Verbal cues trump non verbal cues in the dark 99.9999999% of the time....pretty much any time there's no gun to your head.

I also fully support women's right to speak about their experiences, good or bad, but in this climate, to lump him into the #metoo movement, which I also fully support, is wrong and unfair to him and the movement, imo.
Tell your girlfriends , write a blog, make an internet list of bad local lays, but don't exaggerate a bad date, or maybe even just bad consensual sex into the worst thing ever (edit:and don't then call the media to spread and multiply your exaggeration in attempt to ruin a media career) .....and absolutely, if you're uncomfortable, forchristsakejustdontputhisdickinyourmouththen....instead use your mouth to say "no thanks, I'm going to leave now" and call an uber.

I finally girded myself and read the babe article. So painful on so many levels.

We are so clueless as human beings, I swear.

The one thing that I hadn't read about before was the screenshot of the text she wrote him the next day. She was quoted as saying, in several accounts, that while it might have been fun for him, it wasn't for her. Even in the babe article, it lists her response as beginning that way.

What I don't remember reading anywhere else was this shortened excerpt:

Aziz: Hey it was fun meeting you last night. [Something about cameras]

Grace: Hey Aziz, it was fun meeting you too. [Something in response to cameras]

Oh dear. This is what I have been saying since #metoo has started.

Our socialization has us saying, politely, "it was fun meeting you".

No. No it wasn't. And yet she felt compelled socially -- and was helped in crafting a response by her friends, according to babe! -- to soften the truth, which came next. Clearly and directly.

Women need to learn to be more direct and less polite. And we need to train our girls early about their right to speak their truth.

I don't blame Grace for her frozen inaction. She wasn't taught anything different as a child.

Let's teach our children to speak their truth, yeah?

Metoo.