And what you just said was relevant to anything other than your own narrow preconceived notions of what is or is not a worthwhile use of someone's time and property?

What I was doing was taking your initial argument and demonstrating the absurdity at it's core by extrapolating it's logical consequences. This is what one does when one has been taught to argue at a level beyond pre-school debating classes. I haven't just "read some Chomsky" I have spent my entire academic career studying Philosophy and linguistics/rhetoric.

Chomsky and I actually disagree on many things & frankly the fact you would choose him and not say Jacques Fresco, Jean Jacques Rousseau or Slavoj Zizek etc. with whom my beliefs have a much greater affinity suggest that you yourself have a paper thin grounding in the political and philosophical subjects you are trying to pull me up on. (and to be clear I don't fully agree with any of those people either, my political philosophy is based upon my own conclusions built up over years of study and consideration)


So lets be clear, generating $7000 of income is to you a pointless activity? (a point you have consistently refused to acknowledge as it undermines your entire argument). What about trying to entertain people? Are all attempts at comedy fruitless because they didn't make YOU laugh?

"Immature", "funny" and "necessary" are all highly subjective concepts.

Clearly YOU didn't find it funny, others (about 7 fucking million in fact!) did.

Clearly YOU thought the video creator lacked maturity, plenty of people would regard his sense of timing, context and dare I say it low level satire as indicative of a potentially very mature and cognicent individual. (not saying he is but the evidence supports either notion)

But most of all NOTHING in the universe is demonstrably necessary, not even the universe itself. The very concept of necessity or usefulness is entirely subjective in it's nature. We as humans invented it, nature has no such qualms, it simply exists and continues to do so (unless you wan't to bring God into this at which point my eyes will likely glaze over).

This did start as your observation regarding the "pointless" destruction of a phone, an observation I was suggesting had it's basis in little more than your own narrow preconceptions about what is and is not a laudable use of ones time and resources.

The point about other evils in the world was an (unsuccessful) attempt to point out the absurdity of getting your knickers in a twist about something so trivial it's almost funny. What you consider a serious problem on the global level specifically is less important than the simple fact that this dude smashing up a phone is utterly negligible by comparison to virtually anything one might care to mention. The best counter you have here far as I can see is to suggest that everything is pointless/subjective which would naturally be totally self defeating. (or to backtrack and redefine your position as one of mere distaste and aesthetic preference rather than an objective truth as you did)

Maybe your a Randist or an anarcho-capitalist or something. That's fine and while I might disagree with the premise of those positions their proponents would support my core notion just the same. i.e. getting angry and this dude smashing up his phone is by a country mile the most inconsequential and asinine point of contention in this whole discussion.


Also to be clear, I utterly reject the entire notion of the left/right wing paradigm and you're attempt to once again put my argument in a box of your own design (i.e. straw man again) is not going to work.

I'm not anti capitalist I'm anti Nepotism and Cronyism. My own ideas about how to fix the world involve both capitalist and socialist principles (along with replacing "democracy" with "meritocracy"). If you had enquired further rather than just generalising my suggestions into a straw man to support your own argument you may have had the opportunity to realise this and engage with the ideas intellectually (rather than as a reactionary).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjectivity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivity_(philosophy)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

Learn to think critically instead of dressing up your own prejudices as objective facts (and attacking the arguer instead of the argument itself).

Some might consider an inability to separate subjective preconceptions from objective facts a far greater sign of immaturity. One of the reasons children are considered immature is because they cannot tell or control where their own Ego stops and other peoples begin. (though naturally this is itself a subjective notion and should probably never be defined as an objective truth either)

I don't expect you to respond like a Harvard professor but please at least engage with the content of the argument rather than painting me into a box and trying to assassinate my character. I'm sure you're probably a reasonably intelligent person and I'm always happy to back down or take back arguments if I'm presented with a well thought out reason why I might be wrong etc.

Yeah it's amazing huh, and 'FUCK YOU WHALES, as wail.The examples of native American and Anglo acting for convenience-sake as an analogous gesture is mute, they were ignorant savages back when....Better, stronger, faster is what the world is about nowadays, eh?

That folks can't understand the consternation of someone who may regard Japan with the contempt for the state of their psychological baggage of mindfuck that created the "today of Japan" that should be clearly seen by all humans with a conscience what can be seen clearly by the entire world with half a fucking brain, is not a concern...Love the Japanese, but they like all nations, cultures and peoples are hard-pressed to do the work needed to un-fuck themselves into the next paradigm of 'humans being' as fast as the planet's urgency warrants, all are guilty of an inevitability of self-immolation.

Japanese, Russians, the Swiss, and cunts with no ethnicity or countries that they know of, seem to suffer from the same state of illusion the entire world finds themselves suffering. Plus, females of all cultures are treated for the most part like shit by their males....kind of like most folks sit back and let those aquatic mammals closest to humankinder be so fucked .Incorrect? Provide examples or throw us in some penalty box and cry racism, or any 'ism' box, you fucking morons.

Are we, OVER-generalizing, or is herding mammals into an enclosure and poking them with sticks something that looks a-ok and sanction-able by sane, thoughtful peeps?? I would not wish this fate on a single Japanese citizen be they native or expatriate. Dolphins have cocks, just like humans do.

Have yourselves herded into an enclosure and experience what happens.

Oh and, fuck rules. Always have, always...will.

(Slinks-off to eat a dolphin sandwich and don boots and a vest made from similar hide, and read Mein fucking Kampfire, under the glow of a human-skin nightshade made from faux beaver.)

Not talking about the guilt of the United States and their use of the fucking A-bomb man, talking about their current dysfunction relative to their oppressive history of their version of feudalism and leadership under the Samurai, Shogun etc., and primarily their treatment of females and the leftovers of tradition that shape the current Japanese paradigm-Sure, their utter defeat and cordon from the west shaped their face the last century, but their history of isolation (by choice and circumstance) their take on other cultures, relationship to the Chinese, etc., and their obstinate deleterious sensibilities that's causing the younger generations of Japanese people to forego breeding for a whacked morality devoid of hope. They all need serious therapy and true, a lot of it lies in the way they internalized their humiliating defeat in WW2.

Love Japan, can't stand the way they are still so out of touch with the whole of humanity. They need to start breeding or their culture will be assimilated.

We forced nuclear energy on them? Please, show me-
Show me a country or peoples who treat women and children like shit, and I'll scream fuck-em or fix-em every time. Goes for the U.S. as well, we're just as fucked.

First of all, I'd like to point-out that once the lovely Ms. Spicer here took of that hideously frumpy dress, got rid of her patina of shellac and wet her hair, she suddenly became much comelier and glamorous and down-to-earth sexy for me personally, as I have ALWAYS gravitated towards women who shun make-up who looked like they just threw-on their favorite comfortable clothes, and could give a fuck about what anyone thinks about how they should look or act.

Any man who thinks otherwise is most-likely, a superficial and abusive fucking douchebag who will invariably seek-out the female form of douchbag, and have lots of power, money, and influence in either politics, banking, sales/insurance, or some other form of criminal activity which does nothing for the planet except create more douchebag children who will turn into bigger douchebag adults than their sheit-scumbag parents ever dreamed. This is a huge phenom in the current planetary paradigm and has been going-on for centuries to create the dysfunctional western civilization we enjoy today, cascading into insanity and oblivion, a world controlled by completely evil pieces of shit.

Here's the real-deal Trancecoach and it's in-line with Bill Burr's idea of an 'epidemic of gold-digging whores' routine so popular here among sift-voters, because it's all true. Assholes and douchebags wield enormous power and control over the rest of us honest and capable peeps on the planet because people in-general, don't know who they are or why they think and act the way they do, because as victims of abuse both physical and psychological, they give their own energy and power over to these cunts who are ass-raping the planet with their lies and egos, their narcissism and toxic personalities.

These hopelessly evil humans have been very successful in programming the herd-mokeys as well to aspire to become cunts, douchbags, and assholes just like themselves, as evidenced in the inordinate amount of these gullible mini-versions running loose on the globe and breeding like fruit flies.

This phenomenon is endemic in the west, the Middle East, China and South America, and it will get way worse before it gets any better.

Actually I'm about as English as they come but crucially I spent my advanced academic career studying Philosophy and rhetoric (lamentably only to Hons. due to laziness) and consequently have an ingrained habit of arguing around a problem rather than relying on established parameters (not always entirely helpful when discussing more day to day matters as I'm sure you've by now gathered but it is essential to working with advanced epistemological problems and so serves me well none the less). I'm also prone to poor punctuation and odd patterns of grammar when I'm not going back over everything I write with a fine tooth comb which has likely not helped. (A consequence of learning to describe tangent after tangent when trying to thoroughly encapsulate some conceptual problems with language alone)

That said, while I may have gone around the houses so to speak I think my conclusion is entirely compatible with what I now understand your own to be.

I didn't want to describe my original counter-point by simply working with the idea that weight is lower on the moon relative to the earth (though I did not try to refute this either) because that would not illustrate why a 2-300kg man in a space suit still takes some shifting (relatively speaking) even if there were no gravity at all. (Would have been faster to just crunch some numbers but that's not what I specialise in)

Sure you could move anything with any force in 0G (which I do understand is technically relative as every object in the universe with mass exerts gravitational forces proportionately (and inversely proportional to the distance between)) but the resulting velocity is directly proportional to mass vs force applied. Weight here then, can be seen as another competing force in the equation rather than the whole thing which it can be convenient to treat it as for a simple calculation (which is what I think you are doing).

To put that another way I was applying a different/deeper linguistic/descriptive paradigm to the same objective facts because that's what we philosophers do. Single paradigm approaches to any subject have a dangerous habit of making one believe one possess such a thing as truly objective facts rather than interpretations only (which are all that truly exist).


In other terms weight alone isn't the whole story (as I assume you well know). Overcoming inertia due to mass scales up all by itself, then gravity comes along and complicates matters. This is why rocket scientists measure potential thrust in DeltaV rather than Watts, Joules etc. right? The mass of the object dictates how much velocity a given input/output of energy would equal.

Gravity and thus the force in newtons it induces (weight) in these terms is an additional force which depending upon the direction in which it is acting multiplies the required DeltaV to achieve the same effect. Moreover when concerning a force of inconstant nature (such as pushing up/jumping or a brief burn of an engine) brings duration into play also. (the foundations of why rocket science gets its fearsome reputation for complexity in its calculations)


Man on the moon lies on the ground and pushes off to try and stand back up.
This push must impart enough DeltaV to his body to produce a sufficient velocity and duration to travel the 2 meters or so needed to get upright so he can then balance the downward gravitational force with his legs&back and successfully convert the chemical/kinetic energy from his arms into potential energy as weight (the energy he uses to stand up is the same energy that would drag him down again right?).

One could practically speaking reduce this to a simple calculation of weight and thrust if all one wanted was a number. Weight would be the only number we need here as it incorporates the mass in it's own calculation (weight = mass x gravity)

But where's the fun in that? My way let's one go round all the houses see how the other bits of the paradigm that support this basic isolated equation function and inter-relate.

Plus (and probably more accurately) I've been playing loads of Kerbal Space Programme lately and have ended up conditioning myself to think in terms of rocketry and thus massively overcomplicated everything here for basically my own amusement/fascination.


Basically few things are more verbose and self indulgent than a bored Philosopher, sorry .


Re: Your challenge. (And I'm just guessing here) something to do with your leg muscles not being able to deliver the energy fast/efficiently enough? (as your feet would leave the ground faster/at a lower level of force?). This is the only thing I can think of as it's easier to push away from things underwater and it certainly looks difficult to push away hard from things when people are floating in 0g.

So lower resistance from gravity = less force to push against the floor with?

Warm? Even in the Ballpark? (Regardless I'm really pleased to discover you weren't the nut I originally thought you to be! (though I imagine you now have some idea what a nut I am))


If I got any of that wrong I'd be happy for you to explain to me why and where (assuming you can keep up with my slightly mad approach to syntax in the 1st place). I'm an armchair physicist (not that I haven't studied it in my time but I'm far from PHD) I'm always happy to learn and improve.

C-Engines' right, a war wouldn't do anything unless you're talking about the systematic elimination of individuals behind an empire that's designed to instill a lasting, generational fear in those who would continue the push for ultimate power and control. The only changes that will come will be more total control unless a dialog manifests with meaning and purpose directed at the control mechanism's infrastructure by a majority of regular peeps unsullied by the indoctro-education of so-called knowledge of the the way the world works.

Until people stop trying to work within the framework of rules and engagement that has been created by the same perpetrators of our enslavement, the majority of our sentient, big-brained species may as well get used to the idea that the few freedoms you imagine yourselves to have now are illusion and your children will not enjoy one one-hundredth of that same illusion in 30 years.

Guerrilla-tactics with a broadband and well-coordinated take-down is the only way to end the paradigm that has been in place for thousands of years. That or some unifying world-wide catastrophic necessity for the survival of the species....like a frikkin' meteor storm some other worldwide natural disaster or some influence from without.

Unbelievable. Our world is being run by imbeciles and the corrupt.

There are people out there in the world that dedicate themselves to learning information, refining methods, trying to make things better for everyone. They should be running countries. But instead, we've got men with hardly any qualifications and hardly any life experience.

Instead of gathering in a room and listening to community representatives telling them exactly how we want our money spent, the top brass are actually sat in a cushty conference room with a buffet and champagne, copping backhanders and selling us down the river.

When did the general populace suddenly fall into this groove of 'civilisation' - this unspoken belief that The Government are all-seeing, all knowing, and always out for what's best in the long run. We, collectively, have just been taken for billions and billions of dollars or pounds or whatever you use by a collection of the world's richest people. They have not been held to account, and in fact they've somehow convinced us to pay them back what they've lost. Imagine if you lived in a wild west village and you'd paid the sheriff every week to protect a safe with everyone's money in it, and he'd been out at night gambling it away. You'd be fucking furious, an angry mob would be at his door. But for some reason we're all docile about the exact parallel of that situation happening in reality.

We really need a paradigm shift in public consciousness, because the metaphor has progressed, right now that wild west village is under martial law and being run through intimidation by a gang. We don't live in some fantasy world where some unseen force is ensuring fair-play. We are the people who have to strive to ensure fair play in everything otherwise we're just letting people rob us. Literally.

We can't progress like this. In charge of the UK's education system is a guy who has never had any experience teaching whatsoever, let alone teaching under the current system, let alone qualifications in teaching. There's a petition on to have him do a week of teaching so that he can understand just how badly he's ruining everything. This is a real person like you or me and he's in charge of running the education system. We're all standing by watching someone we know is incompetent do a complicated job. Half of us wouldn't even admit to being able to do that job if we were offered it, but this fucking bumbling posh moron takes the wheels with the manic grin of an idiot that feels no fear. Dashing the wheel left and right, we idly watch on as he plays around to see what will happen, crossings our fingers nothing bad happens.

The current political paradigm demands leaders. OWS was anti-hierarchical and thereby easily ignored in the context of long term stable politics.

'antagonistic, vitriolic style' newtboy???...That's rich, considering my motivation for letting the dogs out on the most recent foray into realms thought so sacred and impenetrable is directed at the very mirror image you look at every day but are still unable to see with repeated blows to the skull with a blunt instrument.

You "have to" ignore perhaps because you are unable to see the log-jam of compacted waste material that has shaped your world-view and has rendered you incapable of dealing with anyone who doesn't smell OK to you, or who walks and talks like yourself, or who ascribes to the same Kool-Aid ® drink you have so frequently injected into your throat-snatch to offer you the relief from thinking critically about the world you inhabit, the bed made for docile herd animals with the shit you've paid in blood for to tell you what to think to get along in the paradigm you find comfortable. Get yer college-money back, recant on your commitment to university loans, it's a huge, sinking boat yer on.

I don't have to imagine the foes of freedom of thought. They simply have to spew enough venom in my purview to be able to be recognized as the same old song-and-dance then FUCK with me, and they get my attention.

@newtboy Chingy's initial statement was not directed at you personally, I can maybe see why you thought it might but you were mistaken. (he didn't quote or reference you at any stage)

What he was trying to say was that the issue here is not specific to Christianity (or for that matter any other religion) but rather with the mindless repetition of inherited arguments and belief systems (i.e. people not truly thinking for themselves or being able to operate outside of the box they have built for themselves).

Atheists etc. are frequently guilty of the same thing; he was simply suggesting that it's unproductive to reduce the problem to paradigm A. vs paradigm B. when in truth its the very act of limiting ones perception and consciousness to one particular paradigm that causes the problem.

In other words the Pastor is an asshat not because he is a Christian but rather because he is only capable of understanding the world via the adopted assumptions of others. A fault which can be levelled at virtually any system of understanding when practised by those who have not yet understood the entirely relativistic nature of such systems.

This is why he referred to the inevitable banter as "boring and tired". For most it becomes simply "Christianity bad atheism good" (or visa versa or whatever). The truth of the matter is far more complex and moreover is universal to all participants.


@chingalera You are far too clever for your own good sometimes! I'd say something about "staring unto the abyss..." but I know full well you already understand this inescapable compromise when "fighting monsters".

Tread softly though brother, even the best of us are always a mere stumble from falling back unto the darkness we seek to banish...

So all you X-Men fans can relate to the character of Loki being the bad-guy nemesis of all things righteous and earthly/human, right? He comes down from Asgard with no checks or balances from his own universe and attempts to lure mankind through force into a slave-like existence of servitude stating the obvious as to the true nature of humankind and their desire to be led, fed, bred and in essence, dead...He offers nothing but his will over theirs and demands only from the lower creatures obedience and the servile future that is in fact, their destiny in robotic loyalty to their nature.

Imagine if you will, the planet as a chessboard with the majority of humans aboard as pawns with the ruling elite acting as the Asgardian rebel, and you have the state of affairs on planet now. These minor diversions and illusions of personal freedoms and human rights portioned-out in small doses by those who control the illusion that these concepts actually exist for humanity when in reality, countries and nations are mere herd pens for the game-makers to contain their stock.

Wrap your heads around this and you are closer to the true nature of the current paradigm than most care to deal with.

That there is some tangible or meaningful dichotomy between the males and females of the herd is part of the illusion created through the propaganda of mass media...it's but another well-honed tool to keep humans distracted by bullshit and keeps humanity easily controlled.

Point taken, changes made to title and for NEWT-BOY:
'Opinionated zealots' create sustainable programs in the form of either rectrification of dying paradigms or completely new models-Who founded your own country's constitution? I don't know where you reside so, how's your government doing?

You have a real hard-on for anyone with faith in my opinion, be that faith in man or some, omnipresent uni-being.

Places like Bulgaria and Switzerland don't have a large segment of their citizens in prisons or are making more and more laws to facilitate their incarceration so..perhaps the shits broken and needs fixing?? At the very least, a major douche.

I vote, kill the douchebags and put THEM in a box...Not the caring, thinking, passionate people trying to navigate the onslaught of the shit created by those in power for anyone but themselves and their buddies to remain comfortable and in control.

I am comfortable and in control of my own world to a great extent and see my way of being threatened as well as that of my countrymen, and it pisses me the fuck off.

A reasonable man would call a man like this, sane and healthy-

Jesus Christ and the gun-bashing bandwagon is leaving the station. My ramblings lost in the ether regardless of facts or fucking figures (death stats by firearms or violence), become mute when you consider that more Germans die of complications from their annual Bratwurst intake than from violent crimes. MY POINT was to pooh-pooh quadrophonic who turned the thread in the direction it went with a simple comment.

Then comes the bandwagon, which I attempted to derail, and now everyone wants to jump in and whine about their take on issues surrounding firearms in the United States, like they are some fucking problem. The problems' with criminals being created by a broken criminal justice system, the fear mongering fomented by news organizations and the cunts proposing legislation whenever some imbecile snaps, and the lackeys that feed on their output like pablum.

All stats, all anger directed at senseless crimes committed by the uncommitted with guns (mass shootings), and all dumb assess who feed on news organization's and their editorializing on sensible laws for guns (that we don't already have) in order to justify more laws become IRRELEVANT when you consider, that by design disarming partially or completely the average citizen is the goal of any fascist.

Most of you who UP-voted ASMO's comment without this explained context or with it, are pretty much the lay-down-and-fuck-me types who, should some fascist regime pop-in and tell them what and how to do things now, would enthusiastically succumb, especially if the offer were candy-coated and the statistics looked good, and you could keep things like groceries and your fucking car.
(and yeah, I up'ed quad's comment...I love to jump head-first into threads hi-jacked by passionate fools)

Or, you simply live in another paradigm (being in a country who has not systematically programmed their inhabitants with violence, fear, and race-tensions) and have no reference for the consternation of a sane, reasonable person surrounded by minions of dutiful robots.

You simply can't SEE a scenario without force, because you've drunk the Kool Aid, Stormsinger, we all have.

Anarcho-Capitalism sounds good in ether, eliminate the state's influence on yer shit. Hire private security firms to dole-out justice, and fuck the police. Sounds REAL good. Privatizing currency structures, anything goes. Sounds righteous and fair-Keeps out gangsters who will eventually become masters.

Eliminate compulsory taxation. Good thing. Ombudsman-like dispute resolution rather than laws and a punishment to follow. Sounds fucking SANE to me. Problem is , with all the robots programmed by the state for the past 100 years, it's kinna hard to convince idiots that something like this could work....to free them from the inevitability of the failure of the current paradigm. About the only problems I can see with a switch would be how to maintain environmental impact standards, but these problems' solutions would become evident when people become responsible for themselves, for another's well-being within the social structure, and their own destinies.

Democracy (the meaning, 'rule of the people') has been lost to the rule of a very few, and historically it never works for very long before assholes find a way around it.


You're in a pot of water being slowly heated, Stormsinger-Warm 'n cozy now, melting skin from your screaming carcass later.

For the sake of the simplest of glaring facts of the American paradigm surrounding firearms comes this thought:
To radically adjust laws and regulations concerning ANY type of weapon or firearms (including those black-powder boom-sticks that don't fit the definition of firearm) in the U.S. would mean that the criminal class which legislation and laws have CREATED through years of designed manipulation of systems, would now become an empowered and an immediate threat to the average law-abiding citizens of cities of a million or more and their outlying areas, OVERNIGHT.

Stop creating hind-brained killers, return critical thinking and common sense to one generation, and people will begin again to motherfucking govern their goddamn selves, or be planted. If Quakers and Shakers can do it, anyone can.

America can't have sane gun legislation while the prison industry, law enforcement, and all the special interest associated are being stroked by the fucks they put in places of power to perpetuate the force and violence.

Guns are tools, period. Humans are capable of using tools and have free will. Period. Laws are for monkeys to control through force, other monkeys. Period.