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>> ^bmacs27:
I still feel an attachment to the revolution, and if you think about, it wasn't that long ago. The minutemen weren't paranoid, they were prudent.

I understand the sentiment. Something along the lines of the principal that if the government prevents you from owning firearms, they are preventing you from overthrowing them. This can be interpreted as a form of oppression.

Maybe that's the real reason the US spends so much on it's military?

>> ^L0cky:

>> ^bmacs27:
Like Switzerland, right?
>> ^L0cky:
That's not an idealism, that's pretty much most of Europe.


Hence why I said most.


Which is what I figured, however, if you take a look at the noise in the numbers, Switzerland is within noise of Iceland, Germany, Austria, France, Norway, Sweden, and Finland. Would you still call it most?

For every enthusiast per capita the US has like this guy, Switzerland has one with half as many guns. Does it really make a difference? Is Europe really that different?

Frankly, I come from the North East. I still feel an attachment to the revolution, and if you think about, it wasn't that long ago. The minutemen weren't paranoid, they were prudent. And they were packing cannon, the nuclear arms of their day. While I think it's worth carefully considering where lines are drawn, e.g. "small" arms, I think most criticism of gun ownership is alarmist, and heavily influenced by confirmation bias and sensationalist media. Sure they're dangerous. But so are lots of things. Accepting a dangerous world is the cost of living in a free society.

I'm sympathetic to the view that "well regulated militias" should probably keep large stores of arms away from their residences, and certainly children. However, we have no strong evidence this guy has kids around. I guess we can quibble about fire, however there is not particularly much in the way of ammunition present. Remember, guns don't kill people. Bullets kill people. Personally, I suspect this guy is a gun salesman. That would explain the quantity of guns, and the relative lack of ammunition. Further, it would explain the youtube video that appears to be an advertisement for a gun cabinet. I don't begrudge this guy his vocation.

Meh. A grab for cash.

Want to know the origins of the Minutemen or the Watchmen? Read the original work. It's all there.

http://videosift.com/video/Minutemen-on-Steroids-The-Citizen-Army-Pt-1

About some crazy anti-immigrant movement in Malaysia.

Do you realize that you are reinforcing the thesis of this video with these poor examples? >> ^quantumushroom:

How is exposing failed government programs, wasted tax dollars and ignoring the Constitution "violent rhetoric"?
OH THOSE PEACEFUL LEFT-WING LIBERALS.

I want to go up to the closest white person and say: ‘You can’t
understand this, it’s a black thing’ and then slap him, just for my
mental health — New York city councilman Charles Barron

It's good (Michelle Malkin's) in D.C. and I'm in New York. I'd spit on
her if I saw her. -- Geraldo Rivera

I have a good news to report; Glen Beck appears closer to suicide - I'm
hoping that he does it on camera; suicide is rampant in his family, and
given his alcoholism and his tendencies towards self-destruction, I am
only hoping that when Glen Beck does put a gun to his head and pulls
the trigger, that it will be on television, because somebody will capture
it on YouTube and it will be the most popular video for months. -- Mike
Malloy, radio "personality"

"It's about time that we have an intifada in this country that changes
fundamentally the political dynamics in here. And we know every --
They're gonna say some Palestinian being too radical -- well, you
haven't seen radicalism yet." -- U.C. Berkeley Lecturer Hatem Bazian
fires up the crowd at an anti-war rally by calling for an American
intifada

The Iraqis who have risen up against the occupation are not
'insurgents' or 'terrorists' or 'The Enemy.' They are the REVOLUTION,
the Minutemen, and their numbers will grow -- and they will win." -- Michael Moore

In Vietnam, our soldiers came back and they were reviled as baby
killers, in shame and humiliation. It isn’t happening now, but I will tell
you – there has never been an army as violent and murderous as our
army has been in Iraq. -- Seymour Hersh

“I hope his wife feeds him lots of eggs and butter and he dies early like
many black men do, of heart disease.... He is an absolutely
reprehensible person.” -- USA Today columnist and Pacifica Radio talk
show host Julianne Malveaux on Justice Clarence Thomas, Nov. 4, 1994,
on PBS’s “To the Contrary.”
"This administration is waging war on poor children," said "The
reality is that they are steadily and surely trying to turn the clock back
on all of the programs and supports that working families and their
children need and deserve. --Hillary Rodham Clinton

The pertinent bits of each example given by Qmush (hi, Qmush!):

slap him
I'd spit on her
I am only hoping that when Glen Beck does put a gun to his head
It's about time that we have an intifada in this country that changes fundamentally the political dynamics in here
The Iraqis ... are the REVOLUTION, the Minutemen, and their numbers will grow -- and they will win
there has never been an army as violent and murderous as our army has been in Iraq.
I hope his wife feeds him lots of eggs and butter
This administration is waging war on poor children

Compared to (paraphrased from memory):
Don't retreat, reload
First to the ballot box, if that doesn't work, then to the bullet box
The recent news story of the gun manufacturer who was offering a limited edition run of a automatic weapon gun part inscribed with "you lie"
Water the tree of liberty with blood


The Dems hoped someone would make an omelet. That's their big threat. Feed them. Ratchet it up a bit to ... Slap someone. Spit on them. Plus a couple of ugly and maybe not ugly observations about what other people might do of their own accord.

No direct threats that incite violent action that would lead to loss of life. None.

That intifada thing is the closest thing about inciting to violence. It wasn't a politician who said it, it was clearly not a planned speech, it was something said in the heat of the moment. But I'll halfway grant you that one. Reluctantly.

I think you have to give it up, Q. That, or find some better examples. These don't make it.

OH THOSE PEACEFUL LEFT-WING LIBERALS.


I want to go up to the closest white person and say: ‘You can’t
understand this, it’s a black thing’ and then slap him, just for my
mental health — New York city councilman Charles Barron


It's good (Michelle Malkin's) in D.C. and I'm in New York. I'd spit on
her if I saw her. -- Geraldo Rivera


I have a good news to report; Glen Beck appears closer to suicide - I'm
hoping that he does it on camera; suicide is rampant in his family, and
given his alcoholism and his tendencies towards self-destruction, I am
only hoping that when Glen Beck does put a gun to his head and pulls
the trigger, that it will be on television, because somebody will capture
it on YouTube and it will be the most popular video for months. -- Mike
Malloy, radio "personality"


"It's about time that we have an intifada in this country that changes
fundamentally the political dynamics in here. And we know every --
They're gonna say some Palestinian being too radical -- well, you
haven't seen radicalism yet." -- U.C. Berkeley Lecturer Hatem Bazian
fires up the crowd at an anti-war rally by calling for an American
intifada


The Iraqis who have risen up against the occupation are not
'insurgents' or 'terrorists' or 'The Enemy.' They are the REVOLUTION,
the Minutemen, and their numbers will grow -- and they will win." -- Michael Moore


In Vietnam, our soldiers came back and they were reviled as baby
killers, in shame and humiliation. It isn’t happening now, but I will tell
you – there has never been an army as violent and murderous as our
army has been in Iraq. -- Seymour Hersh


“I hope his wife feeds him lots of eggs and butter and he dies early like
many black men do, of heart disease.... He is an absolutely
reprehensible person.” -- USA Today columnist and Pacifica Radio talk
show host Julianne Malveaux on Justice Clarence Thomas, Nov. 4, 1994,
on PBS’s “To the Contrary.”

"This administration is waging war on poor children," said "The
reality is that they are steadily and surely trying to turn the clock back
on all of the programs and supports that working families and their
children need and deserve. --Hillary Rodham Clinton

How is exposing failed government programs, wasted tax dollars and ignoring the Constitution "violent rhetoric"?

OH THOSE PEACEFUL LEFT-WING LIBERALS.


I want to go up to the closest white person and say: ‘You can’t
understand this, it’s a black thing’ and then slap him, just for my
mental health — New York city councilman Charles Barron


It's good (Michelle Malkin's) in D.C. and I'm in New York. I'd spit on
her if I saw her. -- Geraldo Rivera


I have a good news to report; Glen Beck appears closer to suicide - I'm
hoping that he does it on camera; suicide is rampant in his family, and
given his alcoholism and his tendencies towards self-destruction, I am
only hoping that when Glen Beck does put a gun to his head and pulls
the trigger, that it will be on television, because somebody will capture
it on YouTube and it will be the most popular video for months. -- Mike
Malloy, radio "personality"


"It's about time that we have an intifada in this country that changes
fundamentally the political dynamics in here. And we know every --
They're gonna say some Palestinian being too radical -- well, you
haven't seen radicalism yet." -- U.C. Berkeley Lecturer Hatem Bazian
fires up the crowd at an anti-war rally by calling for an American
intifada


The Iraqis who have risen up against the occupation are not
'insurgents' or 'terrorists' or 'The Enemy.' They are the REVOLUTION,
the Minutemen, and their numbers will grow -- and they will win." -- Michael Moore


In Vietnam, our soldiers came back and they were reviled as baby
killers, in shame and humiliation. It isn’t happening now, but I will tell
you – there has never been an army as violent and murderous as our
army has been in Iraq. -- Seymour Hersh


“I hope his wife feeds him lots of eggs and butter and he dies early like
many black men do, of heart disease.... He is an absolutely
reprehensible person.” -- USA Today columnist and Pacifica Radio talk
show host Julianne Malveaux on Justice Clarence Thomas, Nov. 4, 1994,
on PBS’s “To the Contrary.”

"This administration is waging war on poor children," said "The
reality is that they are steadily and surely trying to turn the clock back
on all of the programs and supports that working families and their
children need and deserve. --Hillary Rodham Clinton

This is one of those, "Say one thing but do another," situations.

http://www.brookings.edu/projects/archive/nucweapons/50.aspx

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_the_United_States#Accidents

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W87

The one consider that one Minuteman III missile can carry up to 12 of those W87 warheads, which were originally meant for the Peacekeeper Missile system. The W87 does about 400 KT of damage. According to the Ground Zero Map http://www.carloslabs.com/projects/200712B/GroundZero.html that can be, roughly, a radius of 6.5 miles of damage in all directions from the epicenter. Now the Minuteman can carry 12 400 KT warheads. Math? Heh, that's a 4800 Kilotons per Minuteman or 4.8 Megatons. How many Minutemen does the US have in stockpile, after SORT? 1,050 land based ICBMs. More math?

1,050 Land Base Nuclear Devices
12 Warheads per device
400 KT per Warhead

Total warheads per weapon 12,600. Did I mention that those warheads can be guided to different targets? That's, roughly, 5.04 Gigatons of TNT. Those are just the land based missile systems. That's not counting the Airborne nukes, or the Ohio Class Nuclear subs.

5.04 Giga, fuck, tons of TNT. When they say they are getting rid of their nukes, I chortle.

My numbers may be off I'm by no means an expert, also note that I would assume all 1,050 Minuteman ICBMs cannot be launched at the same time. I just really like large numbers and who gets to write Giga fuck tons of TNT every day?

@chilaxe what about the far right? It seems as long as you guys have the KKK rooting for you, along with their dog whistlers like Limbaugh, Beck, and the Pauls at the forefront of conservative and libertarian thought's public image, you're never going to get the support of present-day liberals, idealistic or otherwise.

Then you have the secessionists, the goldbugs, the tenthers, the birthers, the minutemen, the militias, and the Paulites who want to destroy the modern economy with discredited economic theories from the 19th Century. Let's not even get started on the huge arm of the "small government" movement that want to pass laws regarding all human sexual activity, and engage in large scale wars with non-Christian religions.

If you want to judge a movement's capability for rational thought based on it's outliers, there's a lot worse over in your house than in mine.

>> ^longde:
It's mindboggling to me that people can't see the both these parties in the video are criminals. One is taking property, and the other intentionally injured another.
I think it is sad that property is deemed more important than human life/limb.
You say that the thief deserved it? So, now its ok to take the law into your hands and mete out punishment by any means? You folks sound like minutemen.
Do you want some extra-legal person meting out punishment to you when you break the law (speeding, tax cheating, drug use, jay walking, etc)?


Shrug, in most places if you jay walk and get hit by a car because you didn't look, the guy driving the car isn't automatically guilty because you decided to dart into traffic. If you hadn't ran blindly into traffic, you wouldn't have been hit by the car...cars are dangerous after all.

If you're speeding to such excess that you hit another car because he pulled out in front of you in a blind corner.....the guy pulling out in front of you is not at fault for your recklessness. He set up a situation where you got in an accident, but he's not going to be charged by any sane police officer if you're doing 50 over the speed limit. If you hadn't been speeding you wouldn't have created the situation you got hurt in....speeding is dangerous after all.

If drug use impairs your judgement enough to cause you to get your ass kicked because you decided to pick a fight, in most court rooms unless the guy kicked your ass to extremes and really did a lot of damage......you'd be the guilty party and he'd be safe under self defense. But you couldn't have fought the guy if he weren't there, so it must be his fault. If you hadn't been high you would have thought better of it and not started a fight and got yourself hurt.....fighting is inherently dangerous after all.

The guy stealing the bike has no reasonable case to make against the guy who left the bike there. It's not as if he asked the guy if the bike were safe to ride, or if he had permission to use his property. It's the equivalent of diving into a fenced off pool without knowing there's water in it. There's an implicit "Don't mess with my property" when you park your car, or leave your bike outside a store when you go in. People remove the front wheels off their bikes as a anti-theft measure......does the guy who hops on it without the front wheel get to sue when he besides his face on the curb?


Simply put, the guy stealing the bike had no reasonable cause to think that bike was his or that it was fully functional and safe. He decided to chance it thinking he'd get a free bike out of it and busted his ass in the process. Hell I'd argue he even knew something was up with the bike because he was looking down at it when he first started pedaling, then he stood up to really put the speed on and shortly after he busted his ass. No one forced the guy to ride it or continue on after he had suspicion about it. Now if after he fell on the bike, the dude with the video camera ran out and kicked him in the face....... intentional harm and "extra-legal" punishment might come into play. Guy wouldn't have been hurt if he hadn't taken the bike.

It's mindboggling to me that people can't see the both these parties in the video are criminals. One is taking property, and the other intentionally injured another.

I think it is sad that property is deemed more important than human life/limb.

You say that the thief deserved it? So, now its ok to take the law into your hands and mete out punishment by any means? You folks sound like minutemen.

Do you want some extra-legal person meting out punishment to you when you break the law (speeding, tax cheating, drug use, jay walking, etc)?

The first amendment certainly doesn't include the right to not be criticized or heckled in response to a speech.

I think every neo-nazi would back the minutemen, but not every minuteman would back the neo-nazis. Every American redneck anti-abortion young-earth-creationist is a republican, but not every republican is one. Same thing.

The Lou Dobbs type of immigration-haters are mainly motivated by the idea that it is hurting their employment prospects, more than anything else.

Immigration is one of the "wedge issues" that republicans use to deceive poor people into voting against their own interests. Another is Reagan's fictional racist stereotype of the ghetto "welfare queen" who is better off than working class white people. Another is pandering to fundamentalist Christians with big talk about anti-homosexuality aka "family values" (While secretly getting handjobs in the men's bathroom of an airport).

Secure borders is not really the problem. The problem is the difficulty of legally getting in. If it was easier to legally get in then you would only have terrorists etc. trying to sneak in. If the minutemen are not racists then why don't they help immigration to go over applications for visas and green cards to allow more people into the USA. They could write the congress and senate to encourage easier legal entry. If their problem with illegal immigrants is that they are illegal then make it easier to be legal and then collect more taxes, etc. I suspect that there is some other reason why the minutemen don't take this approach.
-karl

PS. going on stage to unfurl a banner is inciting violence? whatever happened to freedom of speech and the right to protest? If peaceful protesting is called incitement of violence then what is the alternative? outright revolt?