I'm guessing Morocco. Can anyone verify this?

You may be right, it does seem like every time "we" get involved it turns to shit faster - it could be that it's shit already and the media exposure makes it apparent to us. I dunno. I'm not a politician, general or intelligence officer, I can only work on the evidence in front of me.

It's basically one big shit storm either way.
>> ^radx:

Well, we are sitting and watching as civilians are butchered, aren't we? Jemen and Bahrain are right nextdoor, but those dictatorships are still backed up. Not to mention the Saudis, who sent troops to gun down the protest in Bahrain.
And who are "the people" in Lybia? I still haven't heard any clear information about the rebels in Libya. From where I'm standing, it still looks very much like a fight between different clans, a civil war. Egypt in particular can't be compared, almost the entire people were rebelling against Mubarak. That's clearly not the case in Libya.
We know jack shit about the domestic context of all the non-Gaddafi actors on the ground, so the kind of intervention currently taking place, an external intervention for mixed motivations, is likely to backfire. Mixed motivations, because I don't believe for a second that oil and particularly the refugee issue are not taken into account in any decision making process.
I'm not saying the UN resolution is right or wrong, I'm simply saying it's a fucking hypocrisy to start a "humanitarian intervention" while supporting the same behaviour next door. Not that I believe in any reasonable chance of success of such an intervention by NATO powers without strong support from at least Turkey and the Arab nations anyway. The Arab League already condemned the airstrikes, so their support is not as strong as it was claimed to be. And why would it, both the Arab League and the CCASG consist of oppressive regimes themselves. If the Arab nations were serious about ending Gaddafi's rule over his people, they would have to take the lead on this one. The track record of NATO/EU intervention is one catastrophe after another, so it has to be them.
There is an obligation to help the civilians currently being slaughtered, but the current plan appears to have risks for the Libyan people outweighing the humanitarian benefit. The best use of the UNSC Resolution seems to use it as little as possible. Any form of escalation will only make things worse. It's up to the opposition now to demonstrate that they have the backing of the people, then their political and popular weight could cause the regime to implode.
Still, it just feels like Kosovo all over again, UÇK and everything, but worse.
>> ^gwiz665:
The people are trying to stand up to him, and he's committing outright genocide. Of course, we must do what we can to help the people liberate themselves. Unlike Iraq, this is not just for the hell of it - we are helping the people free themselves, when they do not have the strength themselves, as opposed to Egypt, Tunesia and so on.
If we sit and watch as the civilians are butchered, we are no better (or at least very little better) than the butchers ourselves.

Sarkozy might have reasons of his own, domestic ones. And let's not forget that just last year, France backed Morocco against the civil uprise in Western Sahara by blocking the UN.
>> ^GeeSussFreeK:
even though I think it is France (lol?) leading the charge on this one.

Well, we are sitting and watching as civilians are butchered, aren't we? Jemen and Bahrain are right nextdoor, but those dictatorships are still backed up. Not to mention the Saudis, who sent troops to gun down the protest in Bahrain.

And who are "the people" in Lybia? I still haven't heard any clear information about the rebels in Libya. From where I'm standing, it still looks very much like a fight between different clans, a civil war. Egypt in particular can't be compared, almost the entire people were rebelling against Mubarak. That's clearly not the case in Libya.

We know jack shit about the domestic context of all the non-Gaddafi actors on the ground, so the kind of intervention currently taking place, an external intervention for mixed motivations, is likely to backfire. Mixed motivations, because I don't believe for a second that oil and particularly the refugee issue are not taken into account in any decision making process.

I'm not saying the UN resolution is right or wrong, I'm simply saying it's a fucking hypocrisy to start a "humanitarian intervention" while supporting the same behaviour next door. Not that I believe in any reasonable chance of success of such an intervention by NATO powers without strong support from at least Turkey and the Arab nations anyway. The Arab League already condemned the airstrikes, so their support is not as strong as it was claimed to be. And why would it, both the Arab League and the CCASG consist of oppressive regimes themselves. If the Arab nations were serious about ending Gaddafi's rule over his people, they would have to take the lead on this one. The track record of NATO/EU intervention is one catastrophe after another, so it has to be them.

There is an obligation to help the civilians currently being slaughtered, but the current plan appears to have risks for the Libyan people outweighing the humanitarian benefit. The best use of the UNSC Resolution seems to use it as little as possible. Any form of escalation will only make things worse. It's up to the opposition now to demonstrate that they have the backing of the people, then their political and popular weight could cause the regime to implode.

Still, it just feels like Kosovo all over again, UÇK and everything, but worse.
>> ^gwiz665:

The people are trying to stand up to him, and he's committing outright genocide. Of course, we must do what we can to help the people liberate themselves. Unlike Iraq, this is not just for the hell of it - we are helping the people free themselves, when they do not have the strength themselves, as opposed to Egypt, Tunesia and so on.
If we sit and watch as the civilians are butchered, we are no better (or at least very little better) than the butchers ourselves.


Sarkozy might have reasons of his own, domestic ones. And let's not forget that just last year, France backed Morocco against the civil uprise in Western Sahara by blocking the UN.
>> ^GeeSussFreeK:

even though I think it is France (lol?) leading the charge on this one.

>> ^legacy0100:

There's a strong Arab community near my area and I often go here to do my grocery shopping. One time I went to an Egyptian shop to buy some bulgur, and then there was a riot in Egypt. Then I went to a Yemeni restaurant in Brooklyn for some Salta and then there was a riot in Yemen. Nowadays I goto a Moroccon restaurant to get tagine for dinner, and now it looks to be a protest in Morocco.
Coincidence?!?!?!?!?!?!


Can you swing by Tim Hortons?

>> ^legacy0100:

There's a strong Arab community near my area and I often go here to do my grocery shopping. One time I went to an Egyptian shop to buy some bulgur, and then there was a riot in Egypt. Then I went to a Yemeni restaurant in Brooklyn for some Salta and then there was a riot in Yemen. Nowadays I goto a Moroccon restaurant to get tagine for dinner, and now it looks to be a protest in Morocco.
Coincidence?!?!?!?!?!?!


You should eat a cheeseburger and freedom fries...see what happens.

>> ^legacy0100:

There's a strong Arab community near my area and I often go here to do my grocery shopping. One time I went to an Egyptian shop to buy some bulgur, and then there was a riot in Egypt. Then I went to a Yemeni restaurant in Brooklyn for some Salta and then there was a riot in Yemen. Nowadays I goto a Moroccon restaurant to get tagine for dinner, and now it looks to be a protest in Morocco.
Coincidence?!?!?!?!?!?!


What ever you do, stay the heck away from Walmart and McDonald's!!!!

http://videosift.com/video/How-Arthur-Became-King-of-the-Britons-Holy-Grail

great clip! here it is on the Sift with subtitles....


>> ^ToastyBuffoon:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GS_1bzaj2fw

There's a strong Arab community near my area and I often go here to do my grocery shopping. One time I went to an Egyptian shop to buy some bulgur, and then there was a riot in Egypt. Then I went to a Yemeni restaurant in Brooklyn for some Salta and then there was a riot in Yemen. Nowadays I goto a Moroccon restaurant to get tagine for dinner, and now it looks to be a protest in Morocco.

Coincidence?!?!?!?!?!?!

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

Good stuff. There seems to be a lot happening in Morocco musically.

When I think of fun loving great places to visit or live.....well just read and see what I mean.......................(the Koran is not a simple history. It is the way all true Muslims must live.
What Islam Isn't
By Dr. Peter Hammond
FrontPageMagazine.com | Monday, April 21, 2008
The following is adapted from Dr. Peter Hammond's book: Slavery, Terrorism and Islam: The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat:

Islam is not a religion nor is it a cult. It is a complete system.

Islam has religious, legal, political, economic and military components. The religious component is a beard for all the other components.

Islamization occurs when there are sufficient Muslims in a country to agitate for their so-called 'religious rights.'

When politically correct and culturally diverse societies agree to 'the reasonable' Muslim demands for their 'religious rights,' they also get the other components under the table. Here's how it works (percentages source CIA: The World Fact Book (2007)).

As long as the Muslim population remains around 1% of any given country they will be regarded as a peace-loving minority and not as a threat to anyone. In fact, they may be featured in articles and films, stereotyped for their colorful uniqueness:

United States -- Muslim 1.0%
Australia -- Muslim 1.5%
Canada -- Muslim 1.9%
China -- Muslim 1%-2%
Italy -- Muslim 1.5%
Norway -- Muslim 1.8%

At 2% and 3% they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs:

Denmark -- Muslim 2%
Germany -- Muslim 3.7%
United Kingdom -- Muslim 2.7%
Spain -- Muslim 4%
Thailand -- Muslim 4.6%

From 5% on they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population.

They will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature it on their shelves -- along with threats for failure to comply. ( United States ).

France -- Muslim 8%
Philippines -- Muslim 5%
Sweden -- Muslim 5%
Switzerland -- Muslim 4.3%
The Netherlands -- Muslim 5.5%
Trinidad &Tobago -- Muslim 5.8%

At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islam is not to convert the world but to establish Sharia law over the entire world.

When Muslims reach 10% of the population, they will increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions ( Paris --car-burnings). Any non-Muslim action that offends Islam will result in uprisings and threats ( Amsterdam - Mohammed cartoons).

Guyana -- Muslim 10%
India -- Muslim 13.4%
Israel -- Muslim 16%
Kenya -- Muslim 10%
Russia -- Muslim 10-15%

After reaching 20% expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings and church and synagogue burning:
Ethiopia -- Muslim 32.8%

At 40% you will find widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks and ongoing militia warfare:

Bosnia -- Muslim 40%
Chad -- Muslim 53.1%
Lebanon -- Muslim 59.7%

From 60% you may expect unfettered persecution of non-believers and other religions, sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels:

Albania -- Muslim 70%
Malaysia -- Muslim 60.4%
Qatar -- Muslim 77.5%
Sudan -- Muslim 70%

After 80% expect State run ethnic cleansing and genocide:

Bangladesh -- Muslim 83%
Egypt -- Muslim 90%
Gaza -- Muslim 98.7%
Indonesia -- Muslim 86.1%
Iran -- Muslim 98%
Iraq -- Muslim 97%
Jordan -- Muslim 92%
Morocco -- Muslim 98.7%
Pakistan -- Muslim 97%
Palestine -- Muslim 99%
Syria -- Muslim 90%
Tajikistan -- Muslim 90%
Turkey -- Muslim 99.8%
United Arab Emirates -- Muslim 96%

100% will usher in the peace of 'Dar-es-Salaam' -- the Islamic House of Peace -- there's supposed to be peace because everybody is a Muslim:

Afghanistan -- Muslim 100%
Saudi Arabia -- Muslim 100%
Somalia -- Muslim 100%
Yemen -- Muslim 99.9%
(Where's your next vacation to?)

>> ^entr0py:
blankman, would you forget about cats already? Cats are over. The internet is all about the goats now. All goats, all the time.
goatstree http://www.mth.pdx.edu/~fountain/morocco/jpegs/goat-tree3.jpg


oh no you don't. I'm not blindly clicking anything that starts with "goat" and ends in ".jpg" ever again thankyouverymuch.

blankman, would you forget about cats already? Cats are over. The internet is all about the goats now. All goats, all the time.

goatstree http://www.mth.pdx.edu/~fountain/morocco/jpegs/goat-tree3.jpg

you might also enjoy these:
http://www.videosift.com/video/Ultra-Low-Desert-Flying-in-Morocco-Dassault-Mirage-Jets
http://www.videosift.com/video/Low-level-flying

The debate of freedom of speech and censorship is on going, am not parroting one line or the other. I believe in freedom of speech myself and have disagreed with the inane protests that occurred during the publishing cartoons, but the question has to be raised when you have a film that is negative of an entire religion while any similar criticism is labeled as anti-semetic when applied to the Jewish community. The hypocrisy is there.

Furthermore society censors ideas because it finds them offensive and detrimental to social cohesion, I don't think you would find many defending the freedom of speech of people burning crosses, wearing KKKs masks and calling black people the n word, using Nazi symbols in German or denying the holocaust.

I mean look at what happened when one Catholic priest said that he denies the existence of the holocaust. He was made to 'reform', this also falls under the freedom of speech argument. The debate is thorny as it is. Ultimately you realize that the creation of censorship occurs to maintain social cohesion or relations between nations. I might not necessarily agree with it but I understand its existence, likewise here in this case as well, I understand its screening online and in Netherlands but I draw a line when he tries to use it as a political vehicle.

Jwray, of course he doesn't Pat Condell is at the end against all religion and is against the seeming loss of Liberty in this case, but he takes one side of the religion and it becomes a cohesive attack on all aspects of it. Have you seen his other videos?

People wouldn't differentiate between that, and would simply use this as another tool to further their own ideas, most of all what I have seen the idea of the clash of civilizations. I have seen this debate reach fever peak after 9/11 with the emergence of Little Green Footballs, Jihad Watch and Fjordsmann. I think that is a destructive and nonconstructive path to take. I refuse to simple stand by and not present counter arguments.

The claim that making such statements doesn't result in problems down the line look no further then the US military cultural training of 2003, where troops were essentially told that all Arabs are deceitful jihadists that would like nothing other then to kill themselves to reach heaven. Where a entire political power claimed that Islamic fascism reaches from Morocco to Indonesia. It seems that in the Western world declarations like these have a finite life time this is not the case in the Eastern world.

Given the last 8 years, I believe the Western world needs to engage the Arab world in dialog but it must respect the cultural background of the region and not just think that it can westernize ideas through brute force and seemingly endless criticism of it's religion.

Boos El Wawa ("wawa" means "owie", a little injury) sung by Haifa Wehbe of Lebanon and Hana El Idrissi of Morocco.
Lyrics in English (the beginning sung a More..s if to a child):
See the owie, kiss the owie, make the owie better.
When you kissed the owie, you made the owie go away -- baahh.
Hide me close to you, cover me and make me warm.
Without you I am so cold.
My nights are sweeter staying up in love
I have to wear my most beautiful clothes
I wear for your eyes my darling all brand new.
A kiss to you and I want you to stay by my side.
Among all people you are most precious to me
And my last concern is what they say is wrong or right.