Hmmmm. All *quality ideas for practicing understanding and not being a spiteful tool. Numbers 8 and 10 I really like, Numbers 2 and 10 give me the jibblies. But if "belief" is a prerequisite to understanding, that's a bit much to ask. You can't just try on a "belief".

What? did I spell *quality incorrectly?

Welllll, I don't think you absolutely need to believe it up front, but you must at least suspend disbelief in order for it to be understandable and coherent.

>> ^schmawy:
What? did I spell quality incorrectly?


It's a blog, not a Sift Talk Post. Can't quality a blog.

The same 10 pointers could be proffered for attempting to understand any system of belief out there, even cults. In order to truly understand us, you must first drink a little of our Kool-aid; here, read our literature; don't listen to people who criticize from outside... they don't know; before you understand us you must first accept certain truths like, our leader is perfect in every way, etc. I don't mean to call Christianity a cult. I am noting that every system which grounds itself in belief instead of evidence has roughly the same list of pleas for my attention and I am asking what sets Christianity apart?
You say belief is key... A little bit of faith up front. How about it? How can I understand belief itself?

Also, do you have a list of frequently misquoted and misconstrued Bible verses that irk you (tip 4)? I'd like to correct them if I have any.

Actually the King James version (KJV) of the bible is a tad more accurate, but also in old English so a bit harder to understand. If you can read German it's even more so and if you can understand Hebrew, it makes even more sense.

It's easy for people to attack and poke holes in what they do not understand. I like to look back on this old post where I think an understanding was reached concerning a common misconception about biblical text.

Dear Henning:
Like I said, you don't HAVE to believe it, but you must be willing to consider that it might be true and you must at least willingly suspend your disbelief as you would when reading a fantastical novel. There is a HUGE difference between consideration and "Kool-aid drinking".

Consideration requires logical thought. I have challenged my religious thought a number of times and have found no unexplainable contradictions in scripture. I have found no reasons not to believe it. I have found no credible explanations other than what I now believe. My particular beliefs on small issues change now and then, but the big picture never really changes.

The last change I recall was going from a "good people who behave to go heaven" to a "once saved always saved (OSAS)" belief. I consider it biblically true to say that if at one point in your life, you were truly "born again" in Christ and the Holy Spirit was granted to you, you have it for eternity no matter what you do or don't do. Some sects say that is false, e.g. Catholics, but that sort of thought is often based on oral tradition and not on biblical bases. I'll trust in God's word and not man's word thanks.

I have no list of misquotes and misinterpretations that I will spend time on recalling. If there is one or two in particular that you are curious about, I will spend the time to research it for you and respond if you choose to ask, but I think the answers are out there for anyone who wants to find them. Those who simply want self-justification for their unbelief are almost never willing to look for them on their own. Still, ask away. I will do my best to find your answers.

I respect your right to believe in a personal god. I think that's important to say, because having a faith is something that is very personal and any challenging argument could be taken as disrespectful. There. That is my white flag before I begin.

To understand Christianity, I don't think suspending my disbelief is a healthy process to seeking a comprehension of truth. The fact that you mention how we must suspend our disbelief as if reading a work of fiction could make one compare Christianity to fiction, Doc_M. I suspend my disbelief when I watch, say, Star Wars, but when the movie is over I do not believe Wookies exist.

Number nine is extra troubling to me, because it seems to imply that you must accept something outright without evidence or justification to do so. If I were to assume god was perfect and omnipresent, then I could do that provided there was some evidence to suggest that. But, you're asking me to accept without proof. And, if I do not then I'm being "illogical"? I'm afraid I need to question that logic.

I used to be Southern Baptist. I used to be a theist. I used to believe in a personal god. I no longer do, because, for me, I realized there wasn't any proof for that mythology to be justified and accepted outright. I did, however, see provable truth within science. But, that's me. I respect your right to believe whatever you wish.

Too many people choose to judge God rather than take the time to understand what He is really saying and what He really means. They just say "If God does this or that, I don't want to believe in Him". It's a childish cop out. It's saying "I'm not gonna think about it rationally because I don't wanna know things that make me question my personal relativity."

Also in all of my scientific research, I have found to reason to believe it is exclusively true or that any religion is less believable. It may be that I've been blessed with several answered prayers that pretty much proved my faith to me, but beyond that, I've seen plenty of historical evidence that these prophets are real, and this Jesus is real, and they fit. I recently met a girl who was doomed to death with a brain tumor which completely vanished after being prayed for daily by countless people who loved her. The doctors were absolutely baffled. They canceled the surgery on the day it was planned for. Wow. I've never seen a contradiction that is not resolvable with study. I've never found a reason not to believe it and I've given it a lot of thought. But I don't think there is any way to understand it if you are judging God based on human relative morality. That just doesn't make any sense at all unless you are just attempting to self-justify.

4, 5: Know your source. Be critical. I completely agree.
6, 8: I agree with them fully.

10 is good, but sounds like you have to "want to believe" to know, this is false. There is a reason you seek knowledge, the underlying motive is not really important, unless you're actually not seeking knowledge.

1: Bibles are propaganda, but all the more reason to study them closely.

2: there is no such thing as objectivity. Every single proposition is "tainted" by some amount of personal belief/opinion. There are degrees of it, however, and the scientific method is good at rooting it out.

3 Well, who decides what stays in and what stays out? Then those who decide this are the living word of God, eh? This destroys any rational faith anyone can have in biblical propaganda.

7: It seems that "christianity" means something different for each person you ask. But yes, faith/belief is not the same as organized religion. Organized religion should be abolished and stripped of any special statuses it holds in civilized society. I'm quite more lenient on personal beliefs. I still hold, that as soon as a religious person defines his/her faith, it can be disproved. And usually this just prompts the response, "I defined it wrong". Bah, humbug.

9: Just because I can understand Einstein, it doesn't follow that I am greater / smarter then he was. We don't have to be Gods to understand a God. If we assume that the Christian God is "perfect, omniscient, and omnipotent" then God automatically has invalidated himself, because we can easily provide evidence that he is not.


Organized religion is evil, but I don't have to delve much further into that, as it is obvious.

Faith and belief is another matter. The main problem with belief in a God is that we can explain everything neatly without it, without any leap of logic or supernatural interventions.

Religion is natural. Human communities, without any exceptions I've ever heard of, established belief systems over time. Its been very important to us to explain and understand nature for a long time; we've developed an intense ability to subconsciously recognizing (or devise) patterns and predict consequences.

We are as social an animal as any, and I'm of the opinion that efficient transmission of collective knowledge is what separates us from the rest. So, I'm thankful for religion, as it was likely a founding trait of successful communal living.

Very nice post Doc, specifically 1, 5, 6, & 7, though it goes a bit hazy on a few of the others.

>> ^Doc_M:
Dear Henning:
Like I said, you don't HAVE to believe it, but you must be willing to consider that it might be true and you must at least willingly suspend your disbelief as you would when reading a fantastical novel. There is a HUGE difference between consideration and "Kool-aid drinking".
Consideration requires logical thought. I have challenged my religious thought a number of times and have found no unexplainable contradictions in scripture. I have found no reasons not to believe it. I have found no credible explanations other than what I now believe. My particular beliefs on small issues change now and then, but the big picture never really changes.
The last change I recall was going from a "good people who behave to go heaven" to a "once saved always saved (OSAS)" belief. I consider it biblically true to say that if at one point in your life, you were truly "born again" in Christ and the Holy Spirit was granted to you, you have it for eternity no matter what you do or don't do. Some sects say that is false, e.g. Catholics, but that sort of thought is often based on oral tradition and not on biblical bases. I'll trust in God's word and not man's word thanks.
I have no list of misquotes and misinterpretations that I will spend time on recalling. If there is one or two in particular that you are curious about, I will spend the time to research it for you and respond if you choose to ask, but I think the answers are out there for anyone who wants to find them. Those who simply want self-justification for their unbelief are almost never willing to look for them on their own. Still, ask away. I will do my best to find your answers.


Sorry if I'm being harsh at all. Not meant that way. I just want to see if you saw this video and what you have to say about it?

http://www.videosift.com/video/Good-O-Meter