Well no, their point is quite clear.

The US government is three to represent the people of it's nation.

Why should multinational corporations be able to buy the their politicians.
Every politician that takes campaign money from unidentified contributors should possibly be tried for treason.

The US government is now run by the multinational oil companies and have been for some time.


But I guess on the point of Witchcraft vs Citizens United, they are not comparing apples with oranges as far as the overriding question goes. I do agree that there are more people that stand behind, trust and support witchcraft and wicca than people that stand behind and support Citizens United.

You're right, the association of Samhain with the Celtic God of the dead is dubious, I retract my comment there. However, you are still way off. The celtics were pagans, and they did more than just light candles. They would build huge bonfires and conduct vegetable, animal and human sacrifices to their gods. Read your own sources. This is macabre to say the least. Whatever the original purpose of the festival, which was terrible enough, it has been further corrupted by the occult over the centuries and more recently the neo-pagan movement. Ritual sacrifice as worship to spirits and spell casting is most certainly done on this day. This is a power day for the pagans. Some call it the devils birthday. Satan is indeed paid tribute, as any worship of spirits goes to demons. Before you try to correct me, let me just tell you that I have a lot of experience with the occult movement and I know exactly what they think about halloween, and how they celebrate it. They look forward to it all year. You think you're just looking at some harmless and quaint tradition, but has an evil origin, and there is much evil done on it; it is nothing any Christian should get near.

>> ^pho3n1x:
There is no "Celtic God of the Dead"...
It's not a celebration of evil at all, and no worship is paid to any "adversary"...
It is a time for passed loved ones to be remembered and honored.
It is a celebration of death, yes, but not in the morbid fashion. The spirits (your loved ones' ghosts) are said to roam more readily during this period, which is why Gaels and Pagans set out a candle (sometimes within a carved turnip) to represent a guiding lantern home.
Also, spirits != demons.
--
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samhain
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hallo_sa.htm
http://www.chalicecentre.net/samhain.htm
http://wicca.com/celtic/akasha/samhainlore.htm
http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usxx&c=holidays&sc=samhain&id=1984
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/paganism/holydays/samhain.shtml
>> ^shinyblurry:
Halloween has both Christian and pagan origins. Christian, because November 1st was All Saints Day, and October 31st was All Saints Eve. Pagan, because November 1st is called Samhain, which is the celtic new year. Samhain is the celtic god of death. On the eve of Samhain, pagans would make sacrifices to their gods and the spirits of the dead were said to roam free. Today, the pagan and occult community embraces Samhain as their new year. It is regarded as the day when witches are at the height of their power, and they cast many spells and worship spirits(demons) on this day. Whatever it once was, today, behind the facade of candy and costumes, it is a night when evil is celebrated and worship is paid to the adversary. It is certainly not anything Christians should participate in, nor anyone else with a single ounce of discernment.

There is no "Celtic God of the Dead"...
It's not a celebration of evil at all, and no worship is paid to any "adversary"...

It is a time for passed loved ones to be remembered and honored.
It is a celebration of death, yes, but not in the morbid fashion. The spirits (your loved ones' ghosts) are said to roam more readily during this period, which is why Gaels and Pagans set out a candle (sometimes within a carved turnip) to represent a guiding lantern home.

Also, spirits != demons.

Also, animal sacrifices which are then cooked and eaten? I don't see a problem. Sounds a lot like Thanksgiving.

--

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samhain
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hallo_sa.htm
http://www.chalicecentre.net/samhain.htm
http://wicca.com/celtic/akasha/samhainlore.htm
http://www.witchvox.com/va/dt_va.html?a=usxx&c=holidays&sc=samhain&id=1984
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/paganism/holydays/samhain.shtml

>> ^shinyblurry:

Halloween has both Christian and pagan origins. Christian, because November 1st was All Saints Day, and October 31st was All Saints Eve. Pagan, because November 1st is called Samhain, which is the celtic new year. Samhain is the celtic god of death. On the eve of Samhain, pagans would make sacrifices to their gods and the spirits of the dead were said to roam free. Today, the pagan and occult community embraces Samhain as their new year. It is regarded as the day when witches are at the height of their power, and they cast many spells and worship spirits(demons) on this day. Whatever it once was, today, behind the facade of candy and costumes, it is a night when evil is celebrated and worship is paid to the adversary. It is certainly not anything Christians should participate in, nor anyone else with a single ounce of discernment.

Not true. Do what thou wilt is directly from the Book of the Law which Crowley wrote and which he said he received from a spirit, ie a demon..perhaps even from Satan himself.

As far as "true hearted" rebellion goes, Satan is the original rebel and all of this so-called freedom of thought is systemic from his desire to usurp Gods position and authority. It isnt at all restrictive to follow the moral law of God, its in fact the only real fredom, and its provided to liberate us from slavery to sin and to the devil. It's the forbidden fruit redux, where humanity is yet again not trusting God but seeking after the knowledge himself, which the devil happily provides, leading the children as the pied piper into the pits of hell.

Yes, not everyone fears God, but not everyone has the common sense not to stick their finger in an electric socket either. There is a concise explanation for sin, and accepting Christ isn't a license to sin. Disobedience to God is never a moot point, saved or not. This video is speaking to the heart of the deception, which is the satanic lie of "do your own thing". It's relative versus absolute truth. It's at the roots of this wicked and perverse generation, which rejects Gods moral authority and seeks only to glorify itself.

I have had personal experience with demons and demon possession, and know they are working to deceive every person about the truth; to lead people away from God. What the bible says about this world being under dominion of Satan is not an exaggeration..it is the horrifying truth of this place, that there is deception working against you on every conceivable level. It really comes down to what kind of person you are..if you are content with the lie, if it suits your moral character, if you love the world instead of the one who made it, then you have already earned your reward and will seek nothing further. Unless this wickedness offends you and unless you want something better, the lie will be all you see. Mick and all the rest of these delusionals are working to spread the satanic lie, many willingly and knowingly. Selling your soul in rock and roll isn't just a popular expression but a literal truth.



>> ^enoch:
crowley was a reknowned occultist and mystic.
he created his own tarot deck based on the egyptian god THOTH but he did not write the satanic bible,that was anton zandor levy a particularly self involved douchebag.
"do what thou whilt,may it harm none" is a wiccan edict drawn from the amalgamation of druidic,celtic and nordic theosophy and was adopted by crowley but was not created by him.wicca was brought to the states in 1952 by brent gardner from england and the secretive coven,which had remained so from the eyes of the church for years,ex-communicated him for his revealing of their ways.
i would not call the artist and musicians who balked at the churchs authoritarian ways as demonic philosophy but rather a true hearted rebellion against the stranglehold the church represented on many who may see things different.
not everyone is god-fearing and the church has never truly established a concise and singular explanation concerning original sin and even if it DID succeed in doing that,chirst died for the forgiveness of those sins.so the point is moot if you have accepted jesus as savior.
again i find videos such as these highly manipulative using imagery and cherry picked material to promote a narrative and for the layman this video may be seen as informative but it is more akin to propaganda meant to frighten those who may not know the facts.
be scared of mick jagger..booga booga!


>> ^enoch:
crowley was a reknowned occultist and mystic.
he created his own tarot deck based on the egyptian god THOTH but he did not write the satanic bible,that was anton zandor levy a particularly self involved douchebag.
"do what thou whilt,may it harm none" is a wiccan edict drawn from the amalgamation of druidic,celtic and nordic theosophy and was adopted by crowley but was not created by him.wicca was brought to the states in 1952 by brent gardner from england and the secretive coven,which had remained so from the eyes of the church for years,ex-communicated him for his revealing of their ways.
i would not call the artist and musicians who balked at the churchs authoritarian ways as demonic philosophy but rather a true hearted rebellion against the stranglehold the church represented on many who may see things different.
not everyone is god-fearing and the church has never truly established a concise and singular explanation concerning original sin and even if it DID succeed in doing that,chirst died for the forgiveness of those sins.so the point is moot if you have accepted jesus as savior.
again i find videos such as these highly manipulative using imagery and cherry picked material to promote a narrative and for the layman this video may be seen as informative but it is more akin to propaganda meant to frighten those who may not know the facts.
be scared of mick jagger..booga booga!

crowley was a reknowned occultist and mystic.
he created his own tarot deck based on the egyptian god THOTH but he did not write the satanic bible,that was anton zandor levy a particularly self involved douchebag.
"do what thou whilt,may it harm none" is a wiccan edict drawn from the amalgamation of druidic,celtic and nordic theosophy and was adopted by crowley but was not created by him.wicca was brought to the states in 1952 by brent gardner from england and the secretive coven,which had remained so from the eyes of the church for years,ex-communicated him for his revealing of their ways.

i would not call the artist and musicians who balked at the churchs authoritarian ways as demonic philosophy but rather a true hearted rebellion against the stranglehold the church represented on many who may see things different.
not everyone is god-fearing and the church has never truly established a concise and singular explanation concerning original sin and even if it DID succeed in doing that,chirst died for the forgiveness of those sins.so the point is moot if you have accepted jesus as savior.

again i find videos such as these highly manipulative using imagery and cherry picked material to promote a narrative and for the layman this video may be seen as informative but it is more akin to propaganda meant to frighten those who may not know the facts.

be scared of mick jagger..booga booga!

*discard wicca

wiccans take great joy in "seducing" christian children into wicca? just like how christians take great joy in "converting" wiccans?

i'm a proud catholic, but i hate, HATE double standards, for anyone.

No need to apologize for great posts! The Sift is all about exchanging ideas and learning about new stuff! Oh, and bacon and getting drunk on a Monday.

Cheers!

In reply to this comment by enoch:
In reply to this comment by ponceleon:
^


well,
there is a bit more to it than that.
"wicca" is an amalgamation of celtic,galic and druidic practices which were considered "pagan" which means (of the village),they were fairly small groups of villagers in northern europe who had to become very secretive with the advent of the papacy and the holy seat,which wielded immense influence and power before the reformation.remember the inquisition went on for centuries,and many pagans were killed for their beliefs and practices.
however it should be interesting to note how much of pagan rituals and practices made it into the christian theosophy:
christmas,easter,st patricks day..there are numerous examples,and all are derived from pagan,even the sacred geomancy you find in churches come from pagan symbols.
now "wicca" on the other hand was revealed by gardenier in 1951 and made its way into the americas via england,and draws almost all of its knowledge and practices from a myriad of celtic,galic and druidic texts and rituals,beliefs.
gardenier was ex-communicated for his revealing of so-called "secrets".
but "wicca" does have a fairly loose set of practices compared to old-world traditional paganism.
now..your definition is more in line with the semetic triad,and how the canonize "holy" text.there is more than one author,but it was by council,325 a.d nicea,and then in 1605 a.d concerning the bible,and its "holy" text.
which to me is a far better attempt than say joeseph smith and his magic hat,or L ron hubbard and his dianetics.
religions,all 4500 of them,range from the sublime,surreal to the absurd.
i..myself..enjoy poking fun sometimes at that absurdity.

just realized you were making a statement,and not asking a question per se'.
my bad..shame to delete this answer tho..
so im not gonna =P
till next time bud.
namaste

In reply to this comment by ponceleon:
^

To me I'm not sure there is any "real" wiccan, like so-called druids, it is composed mostly of hippies wanting to rebel against "established" religions. Their "texts" are just written by self-styled religious "leaders" who basically pick and choose from whatever sounds cool to them.

Then again, isn't all religion like this? When you think about it, some guy (and in rare cases girl) just decides God wants it a certain way, writes a "holy" text and viola! New religion is born.


well,
there is a bit more to it than that.
"wicca" is an amalgamation of celtic,galic and druidic practices which were considered "pagan" which means (of the village),they were fairly small groups of villagers in northern europe who had to become very secretive with the advent of the papacy and the holy seat,which wielded immense influence and power before the reformation.remember the inquisition went on for centuries,and many pagans were killed for their beliefs and practices.
however it should be interesting to note how much of pagan rituals and practices made it into the christian theosophy:
christmas,easter,st patricks day..there are numerous examples,and all are derived from pagan,even the sacred geomancy you find in churches come from pagan symbols.
now "wicca" on the other hand was revealed by gardenier in 1951 and made its way into the americas via england,and draws almost all of its knowledge and practices from a myriad of celtic,galic and druidic texts and rituals,beliefs.
gardenier was ex-communicated for his revealing of so-called "secrets".
but "wicca" does have a fairly loose set of practices compared to old-world traditional paganism.
now..your definition is more in line with the semetic triad,and how the canonize "holy" text.there is more than one author,but it was by council,325 a.d nicea,and then in 1605 a.d concerning the bible,and its "holy" text.
which to me is a far better attempt than say joeseph smith and his magic hat,or L ron hubbard and his dianetics.
religions,all 4500 of them,range from the sublime,surreal to the absurd.
i..myself..enjoy poking fun sometimes at that absurdity.

just realized you were making a statement,and not asking a question per se'.
my bad..shame to delete this answer tho..
so im not gonna =P
till next time bud.
namaste

>> ^volumptuous:

Fail. This is why you're a bottom. Ron Paul is against the War on Drugs, against prohibition of any drug (medicinal or otherwise), against the Patriot Act and against the war in Iraq. I'm not sure where you are getting your facts: Daily Kos? But, they're all wrong.

I guess if you say a lie long enough and loud enough those too ignorant to do research will just believe it, huh?

I'm not sure about Wicca in the military or Clinton's impeachment. I will go on the record as saying I just don't know where RP stands or stood on those.

but, let's be honest, if Obama was in the lead at the top of this silly poll all would be peaceful and quiet in here. Ron Paul isn't president, so chill out. Your guy won, dude. Take a deep breath. Enjoy it. No need to lie. It's just a silly poll.

>> ^NetRunner:

I'm not against government's existence. More delicious words. Om nom nom. I believe it limited government and follow the Jeffersonian principles of government.

Blanky

We don't need to put words in your mouth when two of the five in the poll are libertarians.

And besides, your guy is a Republican and ran for POTUS as a Republican. Barr was a Republican until 2006, when he saw his brand crushed into a zillion ugly pieces. This also happens to coincide with when he saw the light of many other "freedoms" being stolen from us, most of which he was a fervent supporter of the destruction.

So please, out of this list here, other than the Dems, they are Republicans, so why wouldn't we, in this context, label those people as such?

Bring up sound money policy as much as you want. I do not and have never agreed with Obama or any Dems fiscal positions, nor do I agree with the scorched earth policies of Barr and Paul. I think the stimulus package is 50% bullshit, and 50% good. Paul and Barr (and Schiff) thinks it's 100% shit, but they do nothing in the way of telling us what they would do, other than nothing, which is nice if you're well-off, but horrible if you're the father of a few kids who just lost his job and all of their health insurance.

I guess that's why anyone who opposes the glibs are unabashed defenders of Obama


*meh



Here's what your awesome Libertarian is responsible for, and tell me again about how much he loves "freedom":

Defense of Marriage Act (authored and sponsored)
War On Drugs
Federal Prohibition of Medical Marijuana
Blocked legalization of medical marijuana in DC, of which passed by 69%
Patriot Act
For the Iraq Resolution
Proposed banning the practice of Wicca in the military
Clinton impeachment


So, anti-abortion, anti-drugs, anti religious freedom, pro-war, anti-clinton, anti-medical marijuana.

OHHH!!! But now he's sowwwy for all that. Yeah, vote for the most draconian laws to happen during my lifetime, jam the war on drugs down our throats with your buddy Newt, and invade Iraq over a pack of lies... and then tell everyone you're sorry and we'll all just forget.


uggh

Skyclad ritual is more and more rare, from what I understand. At least, I haven't run into many pagan groups that openly practice it, though it used to be the rule more or less back in the beginning of Wicca. Though to be fair, there aren't very many pagans in Oklahoma.

Atheist simply means Without Theism, A-Theist. Asexual, Asymmetric, etc.

With the current horrible state of public schools, if you want your kid to be able to simply Read and Write you better either home school or go upscale Private. I would never ever EVER send my kids to a public high school aka zoo.

In my high school days the study of various religions was conducted in a class called Comparative Religion. Nowadays it's likely called yo mama suk dik biyatch or something equally intelligent.

I'll vote for the right to teach religion in the classroom when they devote equal time to the Church of Wicca.

(First off, great discussion. Thank you!)

"It sounds to me, gwiz665, as if your beef is not really with religion, but with malignant ideological authoritarianism."

Agreed. But (and I will avoid the grand sweep of saying "all") the big monotheistic religions (Christianity, Judaism and Islam) are malignant ideological authoritarianisms. I have no problems with the personal religions that keep to themselves and do no real harm (see wicca). I think it is a shame that they include supernatural elements, because they are false, but as long as this isn't used as an excuse to do harm, my problems are limited to an intellectual debate about truth vs. falsity.

"It has only been in areas of ideological tolerance--for both religious and scientific thought--that any major scientific advances have occurred in the last two hundred years."

What? This is just wrong. There have been several scientific advances which goes very much against the bible and religious thought. Evolution is the easy one to point at; Carbon dating, geology and stem cell research. I may misunderstand what you mean by "ideological tolerance", however, so please elaborate.

"Orthopraxy vs. orthodoxy"
The jump from orthodoxy and orthopraxy is a small one. Orthodoxy concerns your thoughts and beliefs while orthopraxy is focused on actions. The law is still laid down by the religion. And to set my sights again, the "big three" have both elements in them.

""Supernatural" elements do not always require faith. "Faith" does not always mean "unquestioning belief.""
Well, how can you believe in a religion with supernatural elements then? Supernatural elements do not exist in our natural reality and thus cannot be disproved or proved. There is no discernible reason why one belief in a supernatural being is right and any other is wrong. There is plenty of corroborating evidence towards there NOT existing any supernatural beings. Every evidence ever properly studied shows no traces of the supernatural.

Government and religion have also had overlaps - in the olden times religion acted as a secondary government that collected its own tax. But the difference is that we choose our government and we change the people in the government on a regular basis. I would argue that religion is not been an agent of change as such, because it has just been fragments of bigger religions that rebelled against "big brother". People have been agents of change, not their faith.

I accept that my condemnation of "all religions" is a bit harsh, because I know little about all the tiny denominations and smaller religions. My main attack goes toward the big three religions, who I think we could do without. The smaller religions have elements that I don't agree with, but as long as their thoughts don't bleed into politics and what the rest of us must do, they can do whatever they want.

I agree with the Fundamentalists - i demand that ALL side of this issue be heard - let's start with the Church of Wicca...