>> ^fjules:
I think atheists should get less butthurt and trying to be all smart and just loosen up. I mean, I don't even want to call myself an atheist anymore, since i see there are atheists who actually believe in paranormal. How the fuck can you not believe in God but believe in ghosts??? I don't believe in anything paranormal, so that makes me what - scientific naturalist?
Anyway, this all youtube raging is getting really lame.


Atheism rejects the belief in deities. That's all. We are not controlled by the will of "Gods".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

I think atheists should get less butthurt and trying to be all smart and just loosen up. I mean, I don't even want to call myself an atheist anymore, since i see there are atheists who actually believe in paranormal. How the fuck can you not believe in God but believe in ghosts??? I don't believe in anything paranormal, so that makes me what - scientific naturalist?

Anyway, this all youtube raging is getting really lame.

Think 'atheist' has a negative connotation in English-speaking countries?

Where I come from, while it's spelled almost the same (ateists), its meaning is exactly as if one said 'toilet-ist' in English.

i think "Atheist T-shirt" is the exact phrase i've been looking for for years. people who are atheist just to be non conformist (and at the same time, conformist), and just to piss off the religious folk. i have no problem with atheists, i have a problem with jerks.

More information is coming out on this, but so far I honestly can't find anything that gets me bent out of shape about it.

William Lynn comes with a lot of recommendations from both Democrats and Republicans. If he is nominated then he has vowed to sell off all of his Raytheon stock and all of his decisions would be subject to an ethics review (for one year at least). He also happens to be highly qualified for the position, but that isn't what people are upset about.

The problem is Obama's campaign promise to keep lobbyists out of his administration. He's trying to avoid a conflict of interest, but it also made him more popular because many people believe "lobbyist = dishonest." I don't believe in the inherent dishonesty of lobbyists, but the conflict of interest issue is valid.

If Lynns actions are as tightly monitored as he and members of congress are proposing then I can't bring myself to be all that upset about it. Even McCain is withholding judgment until certain questions are answered about Lynn's intentions and how much oversight he will have.

As far as Obama "lying" (or u-turning) about this, I'm not completely comfortable with it but I'm not completely against it. I feel the same way about politicians who claim to be religious to get elected... lots of people think atheists are bad people, just like they automatically think that lobbyists are bad people. I don't think Obama should have made such a strict statement, but he's still pushing for more ethical oversight rather than saying "our administration doesn't have to tell you what we're doing."

Hate me for not "holding Obama accountable" if you want, but this is how I feel about the situation based on all of the information I could find around the internet. If Obama were instead doing something like reversing his position on waterboarding or rights of detainees then that is something I would definitely get upset about. This misstep is annoying, but I can't get angry about it from the available information.

>> ^Winstonfield_Pennypacker:

We don't have much use for faith because it requires the absence of evidence.
Untrue. Faith is not destroyed by the presence of evidence. Evidence reinforces faith. Follow the scientific process. Most scientific process begins with a hunch, an idea, a concept, or 'faith' in a hypothesis. Then experimentation is conducted, and evidence reinforces the initial concept. The faith in the concept is not negated. It is JUSTIFIED.
But you see, there are so many other things for which there is a similar lack of evidence that are easy to disbelieve. Elves, fairies, unicorns, leprechauns and so forth. There's no evidence that any of these things exist, so does that mean people's default position should be to believe in them?
If there was a bunch of people out there who believe in elves and they were making the world (by and large) a better place because of thier beliefs, then what does it matter to you whether elves are real or not? Should you not rather be more concerned with getting as many people to believe in elves as possible because it is improving human society and conduct? You may chuckle up your sleeve at their belief in elves, but if the world is getting better does that not make the belief useful to you? And what harm would it be to you if these elf advocates approached you? You may be chagrined by the indignity of thier personal opinion that you're a scoundrel for not agreeing with them, but if they improve the world as a rule is that not a viable sacrifice on your part?


Faith and scientific method are opposed to one another and that is the issue at the heart of the matter. That is why you get all butthurt and think atheists are jerks. Faith does not follow the scientific process. In fact, it requires someone to suspend all logic and evidence to adhere to it. Ok, there is a heaven, so find some evidence of it. Bad people go to hell, show me the experiments. God made the world 2,600 years ago, show me the evidence. God answers prayer.. Well, fuck that one should be easy. Have people in a double blind study pray and record how many prayers are answered.

Don't confuse "faith" with hypothesis. One is arbitrary unprovable fantasy of the mind of a three yeaer old. A hypothesis is something that can be tested.

And why don't you turn this elf analogy around. Since the majority of good in the world comes from science and technology and the majority of improvements in life span, quality of life, understanding of the universe, societal advancement... etc. Have all come at the hands of science and non-secular organizations. So, for the sake of the good that is done, why can't the elf-believers just STFU and let real good continue. The scoundrels are the assholes that want to teach fairy tales instead of biology and waste time trying to put education backwards decades if not centuries. (see: intelligent design, Scopes Trial, etc.)

You sir are the scoundrel. You are the one preventing the improvement of the world because you can't just keep your belief in elves to yourself. The world is getting to be a better place and it is not coming at the hands of religious extremists. Think of how many centuries are human potential were squandered because of fighting over which type of elfs and unicorns are the correct ones.

>> ^quantumushroom:
By itself, atheism is not a bad thing. But since the human
heart is infinitely deceptive, atheism solves nothing either.

I do love that assertion about the human heart, stated as
fact... makes little to no sense, but let's continue.

Let me rephrase, because I want this to be crystal clear: the
atheist, by default, has declared him or herself to be the
sole judge of what is right and what is wrong, and no other
standards other than their whims or how they're feeling at any
given moment defines morality, goodness, evil, etc.

Even if they do not do so, atheists still must believe that
they are free to pick and choose which laws to obey, the
same exact way those hypocritical religious people pick and
choose which parts of their religion they will follow.

Atheists' highest authority is...themselves.



Religious superstition is replaced by moral relativism and
"rationality" that is masterful at hiding its own emotional
drives. You're in the same boat as everyone else.

No, completely missing the point. People who blindly follow
the bible do so with no reason. They don't stop and think
"Hmmm, is it wrong to hate gay people? On what grounds am I
actually hating them?".

Who is to say you're not blindly following the people
declaring that, 'Christians all hate gays?'

Whereas when you're an atheist you base your morals and are
open to discourse, rather than the blanket 'nope, not talking
about it, the bible says it... end of story'. Trying to
suggest that this is somehow hiding emotionality is bullshit,
emotions can come into said discourse just as much, in fact
moreso than in religion, which teaches to SUBDUE your
emotions, IGNORE your feelings... if you're a man and you feel
love for another man... well, that's wrong buddy, the bible
says so.

The Bible has many passages about slavery, yet it was the
political movements of religious people the world over that
freed the slaves. To blanket-condemn the Bible or even the Quran seems a tad harsher even than the false assertion that all Christians must hate gays.

I understand atheists' contempt for the blind obedience of
fundamentalists, but if you're declaring all religion as evil
because of one segment of an infinite human endeavor, I'd
suggest you're being a tad closed-minded.



I don't think beings who cannot see germs or x-rays with their
plain eyes or past the 13 billion light year "edge" of the
universe with technology have any business announcing with
certainty that, "There is no God." My opinion.

STOP DOING THAT! Gah, I hate that fr*cken bullshit of
saying 'you can't be certain there's no god'... WE DON'T SAY
THERE'S NO GOD. We're saying there is no evidence to suggest
there is one, so to spend every sunday worshiping something
that by all accounts doesn't exist seems a bit silly. We're
happy to be shown to be wrong by SOME SORT of evidence... ANY
would be nice. Stop saying that we are saying for certain that
there is no god. We are saying that we THINK there's no god,
but those with an open mind are happy to accept further
evidence on the matter.

I understand what you're saying, yet the definition of an
atheism is "The doctrine or belief that there is no God" and
"Disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings". I
could be wrong, but you have stated in other words that
atheism is "The doctrine or belief that there is no
God...until proven otherwise."


Atheists remain a tiny minority and their bases for
eliminating all traces of religion from American society are
plainly wrong. Whether you accept it or not, religion has
always been a vital force in countries' historical DNA,
usually with a surplus of goodness over evil.

OK, firstly... Atheists are hardly a 'tiny minority', you
may wish to think so, but sorry, it ain't true. First link off
google on the matter 16% are non religious. That's not a 'tiny
minority' by any stretch of any imagination. Then, if we look
at the wikipedia entry we can see that just getting any sort
of number is fraught with problems in classification, self
identification etc.

I agree it's hard to quantify atheists. You could've just
said, "China makes up one-quarter of the world's people and
they're atheist."

THEN secondly... it's HARDLY that anyone is trying to
eliminate all traces of religion from a country... it's a case
of everyone is perfectly free to believe what they want... BUT
when ONE religion starts enforcing IT'S beliefs on the
populous via government THEN things are wrong. Passing law
based on the bible, making Creationism be taught in science is
all absolute bullshit and SHOULD be stopped. But that in no
way is trying to suggest that people can't go to church, be
religious, pray or whatever and do so without fear. It's the
religious folk who are making those without religion feel
fearful because of the way they are being treated.

You bring up many issues here, most of them political. The
ACLU is trying their damnedest to remove all traces of
religious expression from public life. Not all atheists are in
the ACLU, but there are zero I know of protesting the ACLU's
bullying either. Government schools are screwed from all
sides. Not to make light of your plight, but everyone claims
to be persecuted these days.

As an atheist you must accept that all actions have no bad
consequences except when discovered by others.

This is such tripe. What you're saying is that religious
people are only good because they fear for the repercussions
of a vengeful god. The way I live my life is that I don't do
bad things because I wouldn't like those things done to me, so
why should I inflict them on someone else. To me that's
FAIR... if the only reason you're 'good' is due to fear of
repercussions, then really... you're not good at all.

But what happens when you meet an atheist who thinks what's FAIR isn't what YOU think is FAIR. There's no ultimate authority, even something as open-ended as the golden rule may not apply.

As an atheist you must accept that Hitler and Mother Teresa
both ended up in a void of nothing.

Um... yep. I see no issue here.

Then why be "good?" Why punish evildoers at all?

I don't believe "the gods" condemn anyone for being an atheist
but I do believe all are subject to laws of karma. Again, an
opinion.

Above all, I don't think atheists are necessarily happier than
anyone else. That's probably why there's never been any kind of mass
"conversion" to unbelief, except at gunpoint by evil
governments.

I don't think atheism is an instant trip to being happier
either, never said it was. I also don't think that you are
necessarily unhappy if you're religious. I know plenty of
lovely religious people... I have no issue with them being
religious, I go to their religious ceremonies, quite like
their pastor in fact... they don't try to convert me, and I
don't try to convert them... everyone is happy.

And how many of those lovely religious people would be upset
by your approval/endorsement of this obnoxious video? Some might get "the joke" but then others may not...

Geeze... trying to suggest that 'evil' governments have
converted people to atheism... man... firstly where the hell
does that come from, and secondly don't even start on that
unless you want to defend the crusades and violent
missionaries 'converting' savages to Christianity... don't
even go there, that's just nuts...

Communism makes the state the highest authority, therefore any
and all religious belief and expression was banned in those countries by human monsters, inflicted a nightmare on their own people. These dictators were atheist NOT because they wanted to usher in an Age of Reason but to
maintain their power.

The Crusades were an anomaly compared to the 100 million murdered worldwide by communism.

And no, I'm not saying all atheists are commies, but when one form of "control" like religion dies, another fills the void. Maybe we should all just honor each others' delusions instead.

Your post is peppered with so many logical fallacies that I don't want to validate it as an argument.

It's a fine rant, neither proving nor disproving a God-Force.

I WOULD however like to point out that most of the post makes little sense unless you make huge assumptions about a variety of different topics.

Mayhaps. Faith and reason remain polite opponents, but unfortunately for some, people are not logical or reasonable most of the time.

We can always fall back on what Napoleon said about religion: it has kept the poor from murdering the rich.

In reply to this comment by JiggaJonson:
Your post is peppered with so many logical fallacies that I don't want to validate it as an argument. I WOULD however like to point out that most of the post makes little sense unless you make huge assumptions about a variety of different topics.


In reply to this comment by quantumushroom:
People are saying it more now, and you're seeing it more
now, because they're just rallying against the stigma of
saying it at all. People are saying it loud and proud because
they don't want it to be considered a BAD thing anymore.

By itself, atheism is not a bad thing. But since the human
heart is infinitely deceptive, atheism solves nothing either.
Religious superstition is replaced by moral relativism and
"rationality" that is masterful at hiding its own emotional
drives. You're in the same boat as everyone else.

I don't think beings who cannot see germs or x-rays with their
plain eyes or past the 13 billion light year "edge" of the
universe with technology have any business announcing with certainty that,
"There is no God." My opinion.

Atheists remain a tiny minority and their bases for
eliminating all traces of religion from American society are
plainly wrong. Whether you accept it or not, religion has
always been a vital force in countries' historical DNA, usually with a surplus of goodness over evil.

As an atheist you must accept that all actions have no bad consequences except when discovered by others.

As an atheist you must accept that Hitler and Mother Teresa
both ended up in a void of nothing.

I don't believe "the gods" condemn anyone for being an atheist
but I do believe all are subject to laws of karma. Again, an
opinion.

Above all, I don't think atheists are necessarily happier than anyone
else. That's probably why there's never been any kind of mass "conversion" to unbelief, except at gunpoint by evil governments.

>> ^quantumushroom:
By itself, atheism is not a bad thing. But since the human
heart is infinitely deceptive, atheism solves nothing either.


I do love that assertion about the human heart, stated as fact... makes little to no sense, but let's continue.

Religious superstition is replaced by moral relativism and
"rationality" that is masterful at hiding its own emotional
drives. You're in the same boat as everyone else.

No, completely missing the point. People who blindly follow the bible do so with no reason. They don't stop and think "Hmmm, is it wrong to hate gay people? On what grounds am I actually hating them?". Whereas when you're an atheist you base your morals and are open to discourse, rather than the blanket 'nope, not talking about it, the bible says it... end of story'. Trying to suggest that this is somehow hiding emotionality is bullshit, emotions can come into said discourse just as much, in fact moreso than in religion, which teaches to SUBDUE your emotions, IGNORE your feelings... if you're a man and you feel love for another man... well, that's wrong buddy, the bible says so.



I don't think beings who cannot see germs or x-rays with their
plain eyes or past the 13 billion light year "edge" of the
universe with technology have any business announcing with certainty that,
"There is no God." My opinion.

STOP DOING THAT! Gah, I hate that fr*cken bullshit of saying 'you can't be certain there's no god'... WE DON'T SAY THERE'S NO GOD. We're saying there is no evidence to suggest there is one, so to spend every sunday worshiping something that by all accounts doesn't exist seems a bit silly. We're happy to be shown to be wrong by SOME SORT of evidence... ANY would be nice. Stop saying that we are saying for certain that there is no god. We are saying that we THINK there's no god, but those with an open mind are happy to accept further evidence on the matter.

Atheists remain a tiny minority and their bases for
eliminating all traces of religion from American society are
plainly wrong. Whether you accept it or not, religion has
always been a vital force in countries' historical DNA, usually with a surplus of goodness over evil.

OK, firstly... Atheists are hardly a 'tiny minority', you may wish to think so, but sorry, it ain't true. First link off google on the matter 16% are non religious. That's not a 'tiny minority' by any stretch of any imagination. Then, if we look at the wikipedia entry we can see that just getting any sort of number is fraught with problems in classification, self identification etc.

THEN secondly... it's HARDLY that anyone is trying to eliminate all traces of religion from a country... it's a case of everyone is perfectly free to believe what they want... BUT when ONE religion starts enforcing IT'S beliefs on the populous via government THEN things are wrong. Passing law based on the bible, making Creationism be taught in science is all absolute bullshit and SHOULD be stopped. But that in no way is trying to suggest that people can't go to church, be religious, pray or whatever and do so without fear. It's the religious folk who are making those without religion feel fearful because of the way they are being treated.

As an atheist you must accept that all actions have no bad consequences except when discovered by others.
This is such tripe. What you're saying is that religious people are only good because they fear for the repercussions of a vengeful god. The way I live my life is that I don't do bad things because I wouldn't like those things done to me, so why should I inflict them on someone else. To me that's FAIR... if the only reason you're 'good' is due to fear of repercussions, then really... you're not good at all.

As an atheist you must accept that Hitler and Mother Teresa
both ended up in a void of nothing.
Um... yep. I see no issue here.

I don't believe "the gods" condemn anyone for being an atheist
but I do believe all are subject to laws of karma. Again, an
opinion.
Above all, I don't think atheists are necessarily happier than anyone
else. That's probably why there's never been any kind of mass "conversion" to unbelief, except at gunpoint by evil governments.

I don't think atheism is an instant trip to being happier either, never said it was. I also don't think that you are necessarily unhappy if you're religious. I know plenty of lovely religious people... I have no issue with them being religious, I go to their religious ceremonies, quite like their pastor in fact... they don't try to convert me, and I don't try to convert them... everyone is happy.

Geeze... trying to suggest that 'evil' governments have converted people to atheism... man... firstly where the hell does that come from, and secondly don't even start on that unless you want to defend the crusades and violent missionaries 'converting' savages to Christianity... don't even go there, that's just nuts...

>> ^quantumushroom:
People are saying it more now, and you're seeing it more
now, because they're just rallying against the stigma of
saying it at all. People are saying it loud and proud because
they don't want it to be considered a BAD thing anymore.
By itself, atheism is not a bad thing. But since the human
heart is infinitely deceptive, atheism solves nothing either.
Religious superstition is replaced by moral relativism and
"rationality" that is masterful at hiding its own emotional
drives. You're in the same boat as everyone else.
I don't think beings who cannot see germs or x-rays with their
plain eyes or past the 13 billion light year "edge" of the
universe with technology have any business announcing with certainty that,
"There is no God." My opinion.
Atheists remain a tiny minority and their bases for
eliminating all traces of religion from American society are
plainly wrong. Whether you accept it or not, religion has
always been a vital force in countries' historical DNA, usually with a surplus of goodness over evil.
As an atheist you must accept that all actions have no bad consequences except when discovered by others.
As an atheist you must accept that Hitler and Mother Teresa
both ended up in a void of nothing.
I don't believe "the gods" condemn anyone for being an atheist
but I do believe all are subject to laws of karma. Again, an
opinion.
Above all, I don't think atheists are necessarily happier than anyone
else. That's probably why there's never been any kind of mass "conversion" to unbelief, except at gunpoint by evil governments.


I don't disagree with the intention of your words, but I have a few problems:

Why would it matter whether Hitler or Mother Teresa go to heaven or hell, or anywhere in between? I've never understood the significance of an afterlife. In my opinion, the idea of an afterlife is gluttonous. Why are we so obsessed with living forever?

Also, moral relativism exists whether you choose to believe so or not. If it didn't, we wouldn't need police, jail and prison systems, mental health facilities, military or psychiatrists. The fact is, people can and will do what they want (or what the voices in their head want) when they want. Whether or not a god or gods exist has no bearing on this reality. Even if you believe it does, your belief does not change the fact that murder, rape, disease, supernovas and golden parachutes happen. It's our responsibility to prevent these things from happening, not a gods.

Now, if you're thinking the way I think you're thinking, which is that religion provides us with absolutes, the problem becomes thus: Which god or gods, tenet, belief system do I believe in? There really is no absolute answer, and if there is, only a handful of people in the world (universe?) will ever know. There's this thing called truth (which even itself is somewhat difficult determine) -- does truth matter or is it merely the idea that matters? If it's only the idea of religion that matters, you haven't solved the so-called problem of moral relativism, you've only hidden the truth from the believer so that they do the "right" thing. So in other words, you're lying. Is lying bad? Yes.

People are saying it more now, and you're seeing it more
now, because they're just rallying against the stigma of
saying it at all. People are saying it loud and proud because
they don't want it to be considered a BAD thing anymore.

By itself, atheism is not a bad thing. But since the human
heart is infinitely deceptive, atheism solves nothing either.
Religious superstition is replaced by moral relativism and
"rationality" that is masterful at hiding its own emotional
drives. You're in the same boat as everyone else.

I don't think beings who cannot see germs or x-rays with their
plain eyes or past the 13 billion light year "edge" of the
universe with technology have any business announcing with certainty that,
"There is no God." My opinion.

Atheists remain a tiny minority and their bases for
eliminating all traces of religion from American society are
plainly wrong. Whether you accept it or not, religion has
always been a vital force in countries' historical DNA, usually with a surplus of goodness over evil.

As an atheist you must accept that all actions have no bad consequences except when discovered by others.

As an atheist you must accept that Hitler and Mother Teresa
both ended up in a void of nothing.

I don't believe "the gods" condemn anyone for being an atheist
but I do believe all are subject to laws of karma. Again, an
opinion.

Above all, I don't think atheists are necessarily happier than anyone
else. That's probably why there's never been any kind of mass "conversion" to unbelief, except at gunpoint by evil governments.

Unfortunately, a word means whatever the majority thinks it means. If a majority of English speakers think Atheist means Satanist, well guess what? It becomes a synonym for Satanist. Fortunately that hasn't happened... yet. But it's got a strong upwelling of people who don't distinguish between atheist and militant atheist or anti-theist. As the atheists become more numerous (and therefor more dangerous to theist beliefs) they will villanize the word more thoroughly.

By the way, I suggest everybody begin using that "ignore" button for a certain troll who's comments inevitably contain the words "boo hoo".

>> ^qruel:
^ i think a poll would be helpful to actually determine whether MGR comments are correct. I personally don't think atheists are the majority here. But it would be interesting to find out. Keep in mind any poll would probably not include the total user base of VS, only the most active (and those who see and partipate in the poll). But all of this is straying from the original intent of the post.


The sift came across as having an atheist majority to me when I saw waves of Dawkins, Hitchens, Pat Condell, or random person that hates all things Christian posts getting sifted. They almost always shoot up to the top 15 instantaneously. Of course the overall user base may not have that bias, but it can really appear that way. I can think of plenty of athiest videos and could probably turn up a whole page full with a quick search, but it's almost impossible to find a video saying anything positive about Christians. In fact, just search for Christianity here and see what comes up. The funniest part of it to me is how an atheist post can sometimes turn in to people all patting each other on the back while pidgeon holing Christians as introlerant and hateful and talking about how much they loathe them all. Thats not all posts of course, but when I see it, it definitely makes me laugh. The easiest way to sift here is to either post something related to Atheism, Ron Paul, or LOLCats. Now, if someone could make some kindof hybrid Ron Dawkins cat that mocks Christians in a political debate about the constitution with a sign asking, "I can has cheezeburgr?" they'd be unstoppable.

^ i think a poll would be helpful to actually determine whether MGR comments are correct. I personally don't think atheists are the majority here. But it would be interesting to find out. Keep in mind any poll would probably not include the total user base of VS, only the most active (and those who see and partipate in the poll). But all of this is straying from the original intent of the post.

Prayer - it doesn't matter whether or not the reply comes from "God", but the act of silent reflection (or meditation), and the associated act of prioritizing needs and desires, allows an individual to actualize their goals while gaining insight into troubling issues that a person may already know the correct answer to "deep down".

Another method would be just to think about the problem at hand, and find out that deep down answer ie: "What is really the right thing to do here?"

Praise - Giving thanks allows a person to focus on the positive aspects of their life.

Credit where its due. If I happen to do something good, I deserve the thanks, the same goes for anyone else.

Worship and fellowship - Giving individuals a common reason to come together and form friendships and communities of mutual support.
Well. This one might be true..

Repentance - Asking for forgiveness of transgressions allows an individual to assess their adherence to their own moral code, recognize shortcomings, and encourage self-improvement.

Alternatively, you could be a real person and apologize to whoever deserves it. Again credit where its due.

All these points seems to me to be more or less moot, easily replaced by a secular humanistic stance, and even if it wasnt, Who the hell wants to live a LIE?? doesnt it matter that something really is true??!! Doesnt it matter that because these false convictions are upheld as a great virtue, and that children are taught to believe without , or despite of all evidence, this creates the very breeding grounds for extremism and literal interpretation

If you ask a moderate, he wont actually possess ANY of the Christian beliefs or values, but by repeating the mantras the "I'm a Christian" and "Being a Christian is a Good Thing" then people who actually do have Christian "values", and who actually believe the bible is no ordinary book, which again, logically leads them to thinking they should actually believe the stuff thats in there.(As opposed to what liberal moderates do) These people are given a free ride.. no beliefs challenged, you cant really go to these people and say "Ok, dude, you are now pulling your moral views out of an iron-age mythical story about an undead jew, please come back to 2007..", simply because by claiming to be a Christian, you are saying you buy into the same nonsense story, but you really dont.

God is not a moderate. Read the bible. If you have thoughts like "I dont REALLY think atheists and agnostics are going to burn in hell forever and ever", then it goes without saying: You did NOT get that idea from the bible, OK? The same can be said about almost any modern, moral statement: Free speech, womens rights, abolishing of slavery, racial equality, You name it, NONE of these have their origin in the bible, You may be able to cook up a verse or two in support of them, but its not ideas that came from that book. Period.