My question is.. will we ever actually use it? The F22 was damn impressive but because we no longer have any enemies with any real air force capability it was simply never used. I can see the whole 'but someday we might' attitude but to me that's bunk. I mean even if we invaded Iran, their airforce consists largely of 80's aircraft that we gave them, F4 Phantoms, F86 Sabers. Their most up to date aircraft are defunct F14's we purposefully sold them without given them any repair manuals and defective parts and some MiG-29's that the Russians gave them that are likewise as defunct. Sure they have a lot of these but against US or European aircraft such as the F-35 or Europe's modern Typhoon or Sukhoi SU-47, a country like Iran would be outmatched dramatically and a confrontation for air space would likely be over in weeks and we'd likely barely loose a single fighter thanks to modern fly-by-wire and 'fire and forget' weapons.

So in the end I just don't see the point. This is corporate welfare at it's finest.

>> ^NetRunner:

>> ^ponceleon:
Actually I have no problem with motive. I heard Ron Paul say at the debates that we are spending 20bil to air-condition tents for soldiers in Afghanistan... that 20bil is making SOMEONE really rich, so there is definitely a LOT of profit to be made in war.
I guess I should've been more clear. I agree that there's a full array of means, motive, and opportunity for Bushclan/Templars/Majestic 12, etc. to conspire to make the whole 9/11 attack happen in the first place.
What I don't understand is the way that suspicion has transformed into a decade-long attempt to prove that demolitions brought down the various WTC building. I simply can't fathom why anyone would do that, especially if you were a super-capable secret cabal concocting the entire scenario to manipulate people.
If it was an evil organization who could secretly wire the building with explosives, then why wouldn't they just pop the explosives and blame Al Qaeda for it? Why would they hire/manipulate Al Qaeda into flying airplanes into the building, and then demo the building Hollywood style? It seems like it'd be a huge risk (what if someone found the explosives early or evidence of them after?) for no apparent reward.
The buildings fell because of the planes that got flown into them. The real questions to be asking if you're looking for a conspiracy would be "did anyone seem to know about it in advance who shouldn't have?" or more damningly, "did anyone seem to disregard advance information about it who shouldn't have?"
You know, like someone who ignored intelligence briefings with titles like "bin Laden determined to strike in the US"...


Netrunner, what's your thoughts on Operation Northwoods?

Northwoods was a false-flag operation plan by the CIA in 1962. It called for terrorist attacks like hijacking planes, disguising US fighter jets as Cuban MIG fighters, and killing US citizens.

Journalist James Bamford summarized Operation Northwoods in his April 24, 2001 book Body of Secrets:
"Operation Northwoods, which had the written approval of the Chairman and every member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, called for innocent people to be shot on American streets; for boats carrying refugees fleeing Cuba to be sunk on the high seas; for a wave of violent terrorism to be launched in Washington, D.C., Miami, and elsewhere. People would be framed for bombings they did not commit; planes would be hijacked. Using phony evidence, all of it would be blamed on Castro, thus giving Lemnitzer and his cabal the excuse, as well as the public and international backing, they needed to launch their war."


The plan was on the desk of JFK and he refused. JFK was later assassinated. The following year LBJ used the staged Gulf of Tonkin incident to go to war in Vietnam. The people that questioned that incident were called conspiracy nuts. But the truth eventually came out, and it will for 9/11 also.

The point is false-flag attacks and government manipulation of evidence is nothing new. And is certainly nothing our government hasn't done before.

I don't know the letter, but it has been confirmed as a MiG-23.

Judging by the pictures, it looks an aweful lot like a Flogger or a Fencer. My money is on a MiG-23B, maybe a MiG-23BN.

The thumbnail image for this video has been updated - thumbnail added by kronosposeidon.

>> ^deathcow:

omg what a junker... would like to see it take a Mig on


...from the ground

omg what a junker... would like to see it take a Mig on

Snake lures ant, ant lures lizard, lizard lures fennec, fennec lures raptor, raptor lures Arab, Arab lures F-16, F-16 lures Mig-29, Mig-29 lures USS Ronald Reagan, USS Ronald Reagan lures SS-18, SS-18 lures Minuteman III.

Thus, the end of the world was brought about by an entirely-too-clever snake.

This is a *dupe of http://www.videosift.com/video/RC-Scale-model-of-MiG-29OVT-doing-3D-maneuvers

It's not flown by Filippo Materazzi, who posted the video, but by Sebastiano Silvestri. Check the other video for more information on the model, including a link to purchase your own!

Oh wow, I'd absolutely love to see a demonstration of one of these live.

I just got back from the "Thunder over Michigan" show in Detroit. First time I'd seen a demo of a Phantom or a Mig, and I have to say, I wasn't disappointed on either accounts.

They also had an F-16, and the blue angels there with Fat Albert, and 6 of the 8 angels actually flying.

Gotta say, this thing looks like it'd be a thrill to watch do some aerobatics.

>> ^jimnms:
I have a sudden urge to fire up IL-2 Forgotten Battles, jump into a Yak and go shoot down some Stuka's.

Yaks, LaGGs, MiGs ... I loved BnZ'ing their buttocks with my Gustav (Bf 109 G-2) or my Kurfürst (Bf 109 K-4).

Hm, need to check if Gutted is still flying ...

Yeah, the no fly zones. That accomplished a lot.

I'm glad you at least understand how much those no fly zones accomplished... Another effort to strangle the people to the point where they would do our dirty work for us and overthrow the strongman that the CIA put into power to begin with.

Oh, so you actually are entirely ignorant of what the no fly zones accomplished.

Remember the genocide of the Kurds that you don't seem to care about? The no fly-zone over northern Iraq was solely for their protection. You see Saddam's greatest military advantage against them was air-superiority. Without the no-fly zone, Saddam was continually using Migs and attack choppers to murder the Kurds. Without that air cover, the Kurds were much better able to defend themselves on the ground.


This resulted in Saddam "Hitler" Hussain's inability to defend 2/3rds of his own country

If you consider continuing the extermination of the Kurd's 'defending' Iraq.


We imposed a draconian embargo that resulted in the deaths of about a half-million Iraqi children

Oh, I see. You blame that on America. Unless you mean by the proxy of their providing Saddam support in the past, there is no connection. Your just an apologist for the dictator that caused those people's misery. It goes without saying how despicable that would make it for you to bring up their deaths in his defense. It also puts a pretty big hole in the view you've presented of pre-invasion Iraq being clearly better than today.

I'm sorry, but your indignation is getting completely lost in your ignorance.

Video of an scale model of this aircraft doing the same maneuvers, and more:

http://www.videosift.com/video/RC-Scale-model-of-MiG-29OVT-doing-3D-maneuvers

We'll know it's combat ready when it's punched a crater into the runway at the Paris Airshow.

Also, I hope it does better than its hanger-queen predecessor, the Mig-29 -- one hour of flight for 10 hours of hanger time.

>> ^Dash:
MiG-29s have FOD shields that cover the intakes during takeoff and landing. Louvres on the top of the LERXs open to provide air to the engines.
Admittedly, this sort of incident is probably not what the designers planned for.


The intakes on the MiG-29 are designed to close to prevent debris from being ingested by the engine during takeoff. The runways that these planes typically operate from aren't great shape, so Russian designers designed it that way. You'll also notice that most Russian built aircraft have little fenders on the front wheels.

Of course when the gear goes up, those intake's open up, so I'm willing to bet some crap got in there. You can even see what looks like some puffs of flame coming out of the engines.