I get what your saying the machine is a wonder even at sub-mach speeds. Still it's not a conversation it's a comment. He's allowed to say he didn't like the video.

In reply to this comment by vault_0:
>> ^jwray:
what's the point of a low-altitude flyby if it's not even supersonic?


What's the point of your post if it does not bring anything to the conversation?

>> ^vault_0:
>> ^jwray:
what's the point of a low-altitude flyby if it's not even supersonic?

What's the point of your post if it does not bring anything to the conversation?

What's the point of your FACE?!

>> ^jwray:
what's the point of a low-altitude flyby if it's not even supersonic?


What's the point of your post if it does not bring anything to the conversation?

what's the point of a low-altitude flyby if it's not even supersonic?

"like a military aircraft at a low altitude" (said while he touches his nose)

DRAMATIC MUSIC!!

yah. the smoking gun on this one is that they haven't released the hotel camera video. everything else seems like the normal DRAMATIC MUSIC crap.

Why do it with a missile when a plane is already a missile? Not sure i see the point there.

Anyway they're still all scum. Even if they (as i suspect) just got some seriously lucky blowback, and didn't conspire to do anything, they're still scum. While we argue conspiracies the heat is deflected off them, not directed at them.

They are war criminals. There is unarguable evidence for that. Why waste time trying to prove they used a missile instead of a plane?

I think that was a planned low altitude flyby (hence the camera) but that is perhaps one of the beefiest sounding aircraft out there.

*1*
I read the article on scrambling. Note that the article itself states that scrambling is MUCH more common AFTER 9/11:
"From Sept. 11 to June, NORAD scrambled jets or diverted combat air patrols 462 times, almost seven times as often as the 67 scrambles from September 2000 to June 2001, Martin said."

Same article:
" "We considered it at that time to be a possible hijacking," air traffic manager Glenn Michael said.

The FAA notified NORAD 15 minutes later; three minutes after that, NORAD was told United Airlines Flight 175 had been hijacked. (Note: later sources say 18 minutes.)

The first two military interceptors, Air Force F-15 Eagles from Otis Air Force Base in Massachusetts, scrambled airborne at 8:52 a.m., too late to do anything about the second jet heading for the Trade Center or a third heading toward the Pentagon. "

The Norad site doesn't convince me of anything malevolent - they screwed up, or didn't hurry (which, in itself, is a kind of screw up in this situation).

The fact that entire squadrons of planes weren't scrambled isn't a big shock - oh no, they didn't scramble from 'the most logical base.'

Generally speaking, you only have a pair of jets ready to go, and not necessarily at all bases. They sent up the first available planes. It's not like the jetliners can shoot back; sending up more jets wouldn't serve much purpose.

As for the tiresome, "oooh, they only flew at 25% of top speed," three things:
1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-15
Maximum speed: Mach 1.2, 900 mph at low altitude; Mach 2.5, 1,650 mph at high altitude (1,450 km/h / 2,655 km/h)
2. with the afterburner on, a jet fighter will shred jetfuel like a grunt about to be deployed to Iraq will drink booze
3. max range of planes is based on full fuel load; we don't know (A) if the planes had fuel fueld loads, and (B) the pilots didn't know how far they would be chasing the jetliners! (note that article about Stewart has a running theme: escorts kept swapping out b/c of need to refuel!)

*2*
Debris spread: depends on how you crash. 'Lawn dart', or skid?
I really don't see what hte issue is? Do they believe there should be a larger or smaller debris field in the case of a shoot-down?

You suggest that an 8 mile spread should be a cause for concern. After reading the claims, I started to wonder if an 8 mile spread wouldn't be more consistent with a shoot-down than a regular crash, but concluded that either is possible.

Here'a 1km debris field crash: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Airlines_Flight_981

That satisfies me that it's entirely possible.

Wiki has several lists - if you're not happy with that example, you can scour some more:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_disasters#Air_disasters
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:In-flight_airliner_structural_failures

I really don't see any evidence to convince me not to think it came down through the efforts of the people onboard.

*****
This "wanttoknow" site is rather awkwardly designed; I can't tell if the documents are supposed to support or refute their claims. I mean, if the information is hidden there's a cover-up. The screw-ups are pretty well known, though. And they stem from the fact that US Intel had a 50+ year mission to make sure that there would be "no more Pearl Harbors," which was modified to "no atomic Pearl Harbors".

Their mission had not fundamentally shifted until after 9/11.
*****

*3*
And as for the President not being evacuated?
Yes, I can explain that, and I'll go beyond incompetence/panic.
Before doing that, I'll just explain what the incompetence argument means: you're dealing with an Administration which had a YEAR to plan for what to do in Iraq. They could've prepared more troops - there was no rush! - and handily had a robust force in place to secure all those weapons caches that the IEDs are coming from, not to mention to prevent the initial looting and all the other chaos.

Argument #2:
Dubya could've said, "sorry kids, gotta go." But he sat there like a deer caught in the headlights of an oncoming 18-wheeler.

Yeah, his agents could've been like, "go go go", but this isn't Red Alert 2 (great game, btw), but real life. If the C-in-C is staying put - and he's sitting in front of TV cameras - you're putting your career on the line if you're going to dart in and drag him out.

It was up to Dubya to move, and he didn't.

Besides, if you want to talk fighter escort, it would be likelier for the local Air National Guard to scramble to protect him than another site in the country, so you've got an additional layer of security right there, although I admit that's little more than idle speculation over classified security protocols.

Man, fisking takes forever.

btw, sterling comment as usual, deathcow.

so if u belive it was a planethat hit the pentagon,then what about this,all the alledged "eye-witnesses" that say they saw a plane hit the pentagon,said that they saw it so clearly at like 30-40feet above their heads and cars,now,have u ever seen what happens to a car if a jet flies over it at such a low altitude-funnily,what suppossed to happen didnt happen at all to any of these cars at the pentagon.therealblankman-you said you havent seen any fact from the conspiracy side,check this-its been scientifically proven that jet fuel cannot burn the struts that where used on the construction of the twin towers to a molten state thus causing the towers to collapse,scientifically prove,any yet this was the official explanation released that this is why the towers collapsed,was because of the immense heat of the jet fuel yet that is scientifically impossible,also,y where all other camera angles of the pentagon crash confiscated by the fbi minutes after,if they have nothing to hide and it really was a plane then y not jus release these tapes and prove it once and for all that it was a plane and not a cruise missile,instead they released their five frame footage that has no plane visible,also note that of the eight black boxes that should have been recovered,only one was,which again was put down to jet fuel incinarating them yet that too is scientifally impossible because of the design of the black boxes,9 of the alledged hijackers of 9/11 are all actually still alive and well,and this one really cracks me up,the jet fuel of the plane that hit the pentagon appearantly completely incinarated a boeing 747 but yet 194 bodies where found and id'd by their dna,don't ya tink that a boeing 747 is slightly more durable to jet fuel than the human body,but sumhow all the bodies where intact and not incinerated like the plain,watch the loose change 2nd edition for more FACTS of what really happend

"Pilots of even the largest jumbo jets had to make a tight turn at low altitude just seconds before touching down. Here, a Korean Airlines 747 makes what, believe it or not, is a typical approach into this airport." http://airvids.blogspot.com/

Woah.