But have you ever heard of one house cat killing another generally? They strut their stuff and pose but I've never seen them get into a killing mode with eachother. >> ^choggie:

>> ^geo321:
It's interesting, I've never heard of one house cat killing another. Even among strays. I wonder if their species has evolved to the point where they don't kill each other anymore.

-wishful thinking- these 2 cats are in the, getting to know each other with wrinkles phase...Roaming cats treat territory according to their imprints, encounters...etc.-These guys probably established some common ground w/o tooo many scratchety-bites. Kitties do and will kill each other-...every day...domesticated/feral kinna strays man-Nearest city near you.

>> ^geo321:

It's interesting, I've never heard of one house cat killing another. Even among strays. I wonder if their species has evolved to the point where they don't kill each other anymore.


-wishful thinking- these 2 cats are in the, getting to know each other with wrinkles phase...Roaming cats treat territory according to their imprints, encounters...etc.-These guys probably established some common ground w/o tooo many scratchety-bites. Kitties do and will kill each other-...every day...domesticated/feral kinna strays man-Nearest city near you.

^:^:^

Perhaps check a mirror whilst running that script down there whiz?? What?? You think choggie a troll who simple-mindedly likes to stir up shit?? Were it all about myself then I would not take time to rattle the cages of the politically distracted. Fundamentalist?? I am fundamentally myself. This me in real-time as well-Yes whizzy, in your perfect world I would not be here, nor would I deserve to. Perception is a motherfucker innit? Bullshit to most perhaps??....friends are a dime a dozen, you can buy you some of those. We've met before...I know you. Hobble me anytime if I get to ya....Everything I do or say is with a view to understanding and peace. It's simply the way I chose my words that rubs ya the wrong way....that and me having a clue about the human condition, personalities and imprints, and 40+ years of living and walking the planet. I don't hate anything or anybody G-the only thing I hate is ignance. And you ain't ignant. Yer a diamond in the rough-we all are.

Peace gwiz665-You've contributed to the place in your inimitable fashion-Kudos to ya!

No reports filed, no unnecessary paperwork-ok system- The guys a fucking cock for slapping the woman back and has obviously not been properly audited by a senior member yet.

A translation would be helpful in determining his decision to react abruptly rather than respond appropriately...and also to meet with his parents in order to determine imprint deniability.

Tattoos and a body with proportions that I enjoy viewing, Choggie. And metal pipes. She's hot.

>> ^choggie:
>> ^thinker247:
...damn. A great remake and one of the hottest women I've ever seen.

Lessee, one of the hottest women you have ever seen...Is that because she looks like she stepped off the set
of the Powerpuff girls or because your first sexual imprint was pornography?
Great cover, decent voice, and yeah DC, she can stand in one place and pose n' sway a bit.....but can she Tango?

>> ^thinker247:
...damn. A great remake and one of the hottest women I've ever seen.


Lessee, one of the hottest women you have ever seen...Is that because she looks like she stepped off the set
of the Powerpuff girls or because your first sexual imprint was pornography?

Great cover, decent voice, and yeah DC, she can stand in one place and pose n' sway a bit.....but can she Tango?

so ive been reading chuck klostermann books lately, and im not sure why because im not sure that i even like chuck klostermann. chuck klostermann writes what i imagine to be the inner monologue of all men born between 1972 and 1980, and im really unsure whether or not this makes good literature. it probably doesnt.

anyhow, in sex drugs and cocoa puffs he makes an interesting assessment of woody allen and women. he credits woody allen for the success of nerdy dudes. he thinks woody allen is the reason that all women like nerdy dudes.

(i swear this is true, if you think youre a nerdy dude and you dont think girls like you, either they do and you dont know it, or you might actually just be kind of douchey)

apparently, women dont even have to be woody allen fans, or even actually see a woody allen movie, and of course women dont want woody allen because he is kind of pervy, but the success of woody allen movies and the whispers of woody allen in pop culture have left their imprint on society and made the neurotic nerd romantic and iconic. so thanks to woody allen, awkward neurotic slightly annoying dudes in ugly sweaters everywhere have a much better chance with women far out of their league.

in essence, i think what he is saying is that woody allen did for skinny nerds what john cusack did for sensitive hit men with huge record collections relatively whiny dispositions huge boom boxes and at least one peter gabriel cassette tape.

kulpims, lucky760 has a porn site, go check the raucous, energetic, and highly trafficked area of the talk over there...see any ad banners??? The shit is becoming more non-linear as wel-check yer socks-

http://www.pornbumper.com/talk

hmmm, imagine that, not too many people can talk with one hand on their cock and one on the mouse....besides, fucking is a time when talking becomes irrelevant in light of the task(s) at hand.

Don't see a shit storm of ad-rev being generated there, either. For that matter, purveyors of traditional forms of porn after the advent of free uploaded amateur stuff, are want to keep up the payments on their Pussy Wagons and fillet Mignon deliveries.

Porn is NOT the wave of the future of the internet.....it's he wave of knuckle-dragging monkeys being told robotically what to do by the mind-control agents of media, as their social dysfunction struggles to catch up wit their early imprints of abuse, neglect, and parents who damaged as THEY are, knew DICK about imprinting a healthy human being....I digress frequently, forgive the non-linearity, go fuck yourselves.

Get real creative if you want to make a difference, and then learn the basic operating procedures of planet earth: disregard $$$$ as the final oooomph at days end....its a confabulation....

WTF were we talking about...OH, brain showing his ass as he projects it on an outdoor theater screeen in a small town outside of Delhi, ON FUCKING FAMILY FILM BOLLYWOOOD MUSICAL NIGHT.....!!! fucking, dumb-ass, shit.

Again, go fuck yourselves, each and every motherfucking one of you....oh and, as some of you cretins are inclined to use as your only parting script as you find your own bullshit being fed to ya with a silver fucking oyster fork, "Have a NICE day!"....(cocksuckers!)

i only do this to stir up shit...y'all know that, right?...Can't be helped, really...trained and imprinted to do so-

>> ^ReverendTed:
I want to upvote this, because it's a topic I'm very interested in and it's a well-presented argument, but I disagree with some of his conclusions.
He challenges dualists for incorrectly equating soul=consciousness=mind, saying that terminology is very important, but at ~7:30 he equates personality with consciousness, which I don't think is a given. This is possibly because he's challenging a particular subset of dualism.
Another terminology problem is that the term "awareness" is never mentioned, presumably equated with consciousness, another non-given.
One argument that he deconstructs is the "cells are replaced so we're not even the same body" argument. Surprisingly, he doesn't mention that brain cells have traditionally been held NOT to do so, though this may have been an abandoned argument in light of recent studies that suggest some regrowth\repair may be possible. (In case my wording was confusing, this is an argument that would support his position.)
The problem with his argument is that consciousness (or at least awareness) IS non-physical, at least given our existing model. Our model of the physical universe does not account for awareness.
It DOES account for behavior. The body (including the brain) is a machine, albeit an organic one, and machines behave physically. Awareness, though, is a hole in the model. That doesn't prove dualism, but it allows for it until we're able to plug that hole.
My personal philosophy is more of a stopgap - acknowledged to possibly be incomplete or incorrect, but consistent with what's "known".
I have no problem accepting the physical model of the universe - evolution, etc. And I have no problem accepting that my body would function just fine without "me", right down to a "personality". The sensory organs feed electrical impulses up through the thalamus into the sensory cortexes, out into the prefrontal cortex and back to the motor cortex. (Oversimplified - it's all intertwined.) All the while making the synapses necessary for associations to be imprinted. I can believe that these "behaviors" were selected through evolution, right down to the development of language and abstract "thought".
Structures that tend to reproduce themselves will tend to reproduce themselves. Structures that are more effective at reproducing themselves will do so more effectively.
But it's just a structure. An amalgamation of individual cells each doing exactly what it's expected to do as an individual cell. There's no point in the process at which awareness is accounted for.
What I believe does take some elements from the Christian religion of my upbringing, which should come as no surprise. Christians are told that we leave our bodies, the vessels, behind when we leave this earth and proceed "into Heaven" to be "one with God." I believe that means everything about this earth is left behind. Not only the physical body and the physical brain, but everything contained in it, which constitutes our accumulated earthly experience - memories, personality. Why? Specifically for those reasons stated above: personality is a functional concept, alterable by physical and chemical changes. The question remains - if memory and personality are lost, what remains? What, indeed.
That said, I do believe there is something separate from the physical existence of the body (and brain) that accounts for awareness. I believe it to be, I guess I'll say an "element" of awareness. It's been suggested that the areas of the brain responsible for "consciousness" are sensory organs as much as the eyes or ears - because of their unique structure able to detect this outside influence.
The problem there, obviously, is that implies a physical influence by what's already been defined as a non-physical object.
I've separated that comment out into its own paragraph because if you really want to discredit dualism, that's all you need to say.
The counter-arguments tend to deal with current physical unknowns, shenanigans in the realm of quantum physics. That "consciousness" or "awareness" exerts its influence on the electrical behavior of the cells in the prefrontal cortex through quantum "nudges". That argument utilizes another hole in the existing deterministic physical model of the universe.
It's also been suggested that consciousness is all post-hoc. That everything we experience has already happened, even if it's fractions of the second later. That we "feel" like we've made decisions but really we're just experiencing the machinations of the brain's processes after the fact. This works pretty well for dualism, because then you no longer have to account for influence on the process. (However, it blows a hole through the theories of most dualists, who are arguing for a soul and the free will that accompanies it.)
Essentially, in this model of dualism, awareness simply detects what the brain is doing, possibly in a specific area of the brain (most likely the prefrontal cortex) - piecing it together into a coherent narrative simply for the purposes of experiencing it. When the brain is damaged, or its behavior altered, awareness is still simply detecting what the brain is doing. This accounts for alterations in personality due to disease, etc. It is however, purely academic, because if it has no influence, then who cares? Only the curious.
There's an island in the middle of the East river - North Brother Island. I've never been there, and I'll never go there. Few people ever will. It has no influence on me, but I'm curious about it because I find it fascinating. It's so far removed from my typical experience - and that's what makes it compelling.
Ok, I've typed too much already and I realize I never really specified what my viewpoint was.
My viewpoint is probably best described as agnostic - I know there are aspects of this discussion that are currently unknowable, so I ascribe to several options that seem to be equally believable.
I guess it's the "prefrontal cortex as awareness-sensory organ" with or without "quantum influence on output by awareness", combined with "awareness is distinct from personality and memory", which allows for some interesting (if not necessarily deep) philosophical musings on what happens to that elemental awareness once it's separated from the earthly body.


Quantum physics = if the numbers don't add up invent your own reasoning, e.g., dark matter or alternative universes while claiming nothing exists that I can not prove. The lack of proof does not equal the lack of existence. Critical thinking seems to be lacking.

Translation: I always get my way, when I don't I have flashbacks from my defective childhood imprints. I hate myself, and I hate my husband.Ahhhhhhhhhhrrrrgh.

>> ^Almanildo:
How does non-physicality allow something to account for awareness any more than something physical?.
Because there's no place for awareness in the current physical model of the universe.



Free will is another potential hangup with the current physical model (contradictory to it, in fact, where awareness is simply unaccounted for), but free will is easily dismissed as illusory, or a result of our limited perception of time.
Other seemingly-ethereal concepts like emotions and ideas are relatively easily explained by the model as chemical responses and imprinted patterns and associations.
There are even areas of the brain identified as dealing with the concept of "self" vs "non-self", though I believe this is more in terms of one's body.
These things, the model accommodates, awareness, not so much - at least, not yet.

I want to upvote this, because it's a topic I'm very interested in and it's a well-presented argument, but I disagree with some of his conclusions.

He challenges dualists for incorrectly equating soul=consciousness=mind, saying that terminology is very important, but at ~7:30 he equates personality with consciousness, which I don't think is a given. This is possibly because he's challenging a particular subset of dualism.

Another terminology problem is that the term "awareness" is never mentioned, presumably equated with consciousness, another non-given.

One argument that he deconstructs is the "cells are replaced so we're not even the same body" argument. Surprisingly, he doesn't mention that brain cells have traditionally been held NOT to do so, though this may have been an abandoned argument in light of recent studies that suggest some regrowth\repair may be possible. (In case my wording was confusing, this is an argument that would support his position.)

The problem with his argument is that consciousness (or at least awareness) IS non-physical, at least given our existing model. Our model of the physical universe does not account for awareness.
It DOES account for behavior. The body (including the brain) is a machine, albeit an organic one, and machines behave physically. Awareness, though, is a hole in the model. That doesn't prove dualism, but it allows for it until we're able to plug that hole.

My personal philosophy is more of a stopgap - acknowledged to possibly be incomplete or incorrect, but consistent with what's "known".
I have no problem accepting the physical model of the universe - evolution, etc. And I have no problem accepting that my body would function just fine without "me", right down to a "personality". The sensory organs feed electrical impulses up through the thalamus into the sensory cortexes, out into the prefrontal cortex and back to the motor cortex. (Oversimplified - it's all intertwined.) All the while making the synapses necessary for associations to be imprinted. I can believe that these "behaviors" were selected through evolution, right down to the development of language and abstract "thought".
Structures that tend to reproduce themselves will tend to reproduce themselves. Structures that are more effective at reproducing themselves will do so more effectively.
But it's just a structure. An amalgamation of individual cells each doing exactly what it's expected to do as an individual cell. There's no point in the process at which awareness is accounted for.

What I believe does take some elements from the Christian religion of my upbringing, which should come as no surprise. Christians are told that we leave our bodies, the vessels, behind when we leave this earth and proceed "into Heaven" to be "one with God." I believe that means everything about this earth is left behind. Not only the physical body and the physical brain, but everything contained in it, which constitutes our accumulated earthly experience - memories, personality. Why? Specifically for those reasons stated above: personality is a functional concept, alterable by physical and chemical changes. The question remains - if memory and personality are lost, what remains? What, indeed.
That said, I do believe there is something separate from the physical existence of the body (and brain) that accounts for awareness. I believe it to be, I guess I'll say an "element" of awareness. It's been suggested that the areas of the brain responsible for "consciousness" are sensory organs as much as the eyes or ears - because of their unique structure able to detect this outside influence.

The problem there, obviously, is that implies a physical influence by what's already been defined as a non-physical object.

I've separated that comment out into its own paragraph because if you really want to discredit dualism, that's all you need to say.
The counter-arguments tend to deal with current physical unknowns, shenanigans in the realm of quantum physics. That "consciousness" or "awareness" exerts its influence on the electrical behavior of the cells in the prefrontal cortex through quantum "nudges". That argument utilizes another hole in the existing deterministic physical model of the universe.

It's also been suggested that consciousness is all post-hoc. That everything we experience has already happened, even if it's fractions of the second later. That we "feel" like we've made decisions but really we're just experiencing the machinations of the brain's processes after the fact. This works pretty well for dualism, because then you no longer have to account for influence on the process. (However, it blows a hole through the theories of most dualists, who are arguing for a soul and the free will that accompanies it.)
Essentially, in this model of dualism, awareness simply detects what the brain is doing, possibly in a specific area of the brain (most likely the prefrontal cortex) - piecing it together into a coherent narrative simply for the purposes of experiencing it. When the brain is damaged, or its behavior altered, awareness is still simply detecting what the brain is doing. This accounts for alterations in personality due to disease, etc. It is however, purely academic, because if it has no influence, then who cares? Only the curious.
There's an island in the middle of the East river - North Brother Island. I've never been there, and I'll never go there. Few people ever will. It has no influence on me, but I'm curious about it because I find it fascinating. It's so far removed from my typical experience - and that's what makes it compelling.

Ok, I've typed too much already and I realize I never really specified what my viewpoint was.
My viewpoint is probably best described as agnostic - I know there are aspects of this discussion that are currently unknowable, so I ascribe to several options that seem to be equally believable.
I guess it's the "prefrontal cortex as awareness-sensory organ" with or without "quantum influence on output by awareness", combined with "awareness is distinct from personality and memory", which allows for some interesting (if not necessarily deep) philosophical musings on what happens to that elemental awareness once it's separated from the earthly body.

^Chilaxe had the right idea with the impetus involving synaptic misfire caused by steroid use...factor in individual physiology and imprints, and it's a simian waiting to explode-poor girl, poor tax-groveleers that pay the system that houses the perpetrators a day past TOMORROW

also:

http://www.kakaporecovery.org.nz/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=92&Itemid=191

Sirocco had an uncertain start to life, suffering a respiratory illness at three weeks old whilst being raised by his mother Zephyr. The treatment he required meant that he had to be hand-raised, and he was the first male kakapo for this to happen. Unfortunately he had to be raised in the absence of other kakapo, and as a result became imprinted on humans. Older age doesn’t seem to have increased his interest in other kakapo yet; he doesn’t associate with them at all, and instead he booms in the presence of humans.

As a result, staff have realised he is unlikely to be an effective breeding bird, but instead an extremely good advocate for his species; and can provide the best opportunities for people to meet a live kakapo.