To me, it was interesting to see how people with limited training reacted to a worst-case scenario. I don't think anyone who carries a gun would argue that more training would be a bad idea. But to speak to some of their specific claims:

1) If you have time to hide and call 911, you have time to hide, call 911, and draw your pistol for protection until the police get there.

2) If someone beats you to the draw, the only thing you can really do is run and hide and hope you don't get hit. That should be common sense.

3) If you make it to cover and the gunman shoots someone and leaves, you're fine. If that person goes around methodically shooting people, maybe you can have time to at least try to save yourself - which is more than you can do if you're not carrying.

4) What if you were in the classroom next door and had a gun? You would have had plenty of time to find cover, get a good sight picture on the door, and possibly protect your roomful of people in a mass-murder situation.

5) The students that had guns didn't hurt anyone, and, in some cases, shot the gunman several times. Yes, they got shot as well, but what if they had incapacitated the gunman with those shots? Or scared them away? It may have saved lives.

In general, carrying a gun exposes you to a new set of risks and responsibilities. As someone who has a concealed carry permit, I would agree that there is not enough training required to sufficiently expose people to those variables. However, I do think the right person with the right training could have prevented a handful of attacks in this country from being much worse. The fact that those people were prohibited from doing so is kind of a bummer.

How many times have we heard "The gunman then stalked from room to room killing as he went" or something similar. I understand that it takes training to efficiently draw a gun and fire in a matter of seconds but many of these shootings involve a gunman stalking from one room to another shooting unarmed people at point blank range over a period of several minutes. To say that a concealed carry is worthless in a situation like this is ignorant. There is no point in arguing hypotheticals. There IS a point in conducting scientific expirements under varying situations. That is certainly not going on here. If it is possible for someone to pick up a cell phone and dial 911 in a situation like this it is possible for someone to draw a gun and defend themselves and the people around them. I certainly don't think everyone should be armed but this video didn't prove anything except that if a trained gunman bursts into a room, shoots the instructor and then turns the gun on you, you will probably die. That is the only situation this video addresses.

They should also have had the whole room carrying weapons. If everyone in the room could be armed the gunman would think twice before entering.

Kinda freaky. I was at work in Sherman Oaks when it happened, but my gf got off work early and couldn't get back to our apartment in North Hollywood because it was inside the area the police cordonned off when they thought there was a 3rd gunman still at large. I was totally fascinated with the incident, it was so unique and so much like the climax of the movie Heat. At the time I thought it was remarkable how little attention it got in L.A. ... it was pretty much forgotten the next week, only popping back up in the news when the mother of one of the shooters sued the LAPD for letting her son bleed out from a head wonund.

>> ^JonaHansen:
There is no way to do this in 20 msec as he claims.


I had to watch the video again, but he says 2 one hundredths of one second. He's actually saying he does all that in 2 msecs. Hmmm, sure.

BTW, that's one heck of a positive Throckmorton sign in your profile picture.

Apparently, he shoots blanks.

>> ^misterwight:
I wonder what he's like in bed?

>> ^budzos:
The Wanted graphic novel is fantastic, if a bit nihilistic even for my tastes. It could just as rightly be titled "Wanton". There`s even less heroism than the movie, none of this "kill one to save a thousand" rationalization. The story is brilliant if you've read enough comic books to absorb all the meta stuff. Wanted has a permanent spot on my "public" comic book shelf, a few spots down from The Watchmen.

"nihilisitc" and "less heroism"? That's all you have to say about the comic? The characters in the comic are homicidal psychopaths! James Mcavoy's character rapes women and then murders them, for fun. One of his first actions after getting his powers is to go on a killing spree of every one who has ever wronged him. It's a fucked up work of antisocial adolescent fantasy, the kind of work you'd expect from the imagination of the colombine murderers or the virginia tech gunman.

There may be some interesting ideas thrown in, but that does not save the series from the weak plot and all the gratuitious sex and violence. It's no where near the level of great graphic novels like the watchmen.

*dupeof=http://www.videosift.com/video/Gunman-Kills-15-Potential-Voters-In-Crucial-Swing-State

This video has been declared a duplicate; transferring votes to the original video and killing this dupe - dupeof declared by Zifnab.

>> ^guessandcheck:
I usually like The Onion but this shit really isn't funny. It's in pretty bad taste to mock the suffering and death of anyone, even fake people. The events depicted echo a much more troubling reality, and while the parody may be mainly on the style of journalism I still find it really bad form. And then to imply that either Barack or McCain condone and are vying for the vote of this new mass murderer is pretty morose. This piece sounds as if it would've been written by a disgruntled high school freshman. As it all comes down to personal taste I'll simply no-vote, but come on, they can do a lot better than that.


I disagree almost entirely, I think that this was a brilliant piece of comedy, not laugh out loud funny, but blacker than the heart of darkness, and really hit home the effects that power and the lust for it has on people.

Additionally, I don't think this is mocking the death and suffering of anyone, the reason why it delves so deep into the human suffering pot, is not to mock those that suffer, but to mock those that are so desperate for power, who are willing to manipulate any tragedy however grave, and those who publicise such ideas, who usually have there fingers in the same pot as the fore mentioned group.

This is certainly a change of pace from the onion, not to a "lets make jokes about the suffering of others", but more to a "Lets take a step back, and examine the world, realise how insane some of it has become"

Sorry nevarc, dupe: http://www.videosift.com/video/Gunman-Kills-15-Potential-Voters-In-Crucial-Swing-State

Congratulations on the crown, you've been a true pillar of the sift and a model for what every member should aspire to. Not only are you a tireless poster, but a prolific commenter, and dauntless in the task watching and voting for other people's videos. Not to mention your selfless and frequent use of the promote.

*Looks off camera to masked gunman* Is..is that all? oh,um...

LONG LIVE KING KRONO AND DEATH TO UMERICA

I respectfully disagree, I think your original contention is still misleading. You said

"That would be murder. Just because someone has a gun in public, or is even threatening, doesn't mean you have the right to shoot them..."

And the article, both the parts I linked and the parts you linked, said that-
1) Threatening someone with a gun in public can be reason enough to shoot them and successfully argue self defense.
2) Even if it isn't, it's likely to provide enough mitigating factors that it wouldn't be "murder"

And additionally I pointed out that-
1) The situation here isn't public.
2) CCW isn't the only relevant set of guidelines for this situation.

And finally pointed out that-
1) The appearance of a threat is enough to justify deadly force, even if it was a joke or the threat wasn't real for some reason.

The other pieces you grabbed from my article don't undermine what I was saying, in fact they support it.

The guy with the shotgun, by trespassing into a place of business and stalking people, was threatening deadly force (or at least someone could argue this reasonably), so as you posted, responding with deadly force would be appropriate.

My hypothetical situation specifically mentioned the owner of the driving range, and what you posted specifically says that an owner or employee is not obligated to attempt a retreat from a place of business before using deadly force.

Maybe you're parsing some of the article incorrectly. When it says "deadly force may not be used to repel an attacker who is not using deadly force" it doesn't mean that the attacker has to be actively firing a weapon. They just have to be presenting the reasonable threat of deadly force.

I'd say it's very unlikely that an employee would be successfully prosecuted for murder in the event that he witnessed the gunman sneak onto the property and start to stalk golfers. You spoke with certainty that someone would be, and I think you're far too certain.

Doc Holliday (1851-1887)

DocJohn Henry Holliday was born in Georgia in 1851. An educated man, John learned mathematics, the sciences, and earned a degree in dentistry (hence his nickname, “Doc”). He disliked the teeth trade, preferring to spend his time playing poker, and after being diagnosed with tuberculosis, he went west to partake of the dry climate.

Despite his genteel upbringing, what Doc really liked to do was have a good time. His idea of a good time involved gambling on cards, drinking whiskey, and enjoying the attentions of a lady or two. A really good time featured all three at once. It has been said that he drank three quarts of whiskey on an average day, and when he got serious about the job, could kill five or six.

Together with his occasional paramour, “Big Nose” Kate Elder, Holliday went on a violent, lucrative, and whiskey-soaked spree through the territories. He tended to leave town under threat of arrest or one step ahead of a posse, and at one time was wanted for various crimes in Kansas, Texas, Missouri and Arizona. He holed up for a time in Tombstone, Arizona, arriving shortly before the Earp brothers, with whom he became embroiled in the animosity which led to the gunfight at the OK Corral.

His TB worsened, causing him to regularly cough up blood. Strong whiskey seemed to stem the hacking, so Doc drank from dawn to dusk. He checked into a hospital for consumptives in Glenwood Springs, Colorado, where, as a wealthy man, he bribed nurses to bring him his self-prescribed medicine. Otherwise, he remained a model patient until he died. He was 36 years old.

Big Nose Kate (1850-1940)

Known at various times as Kate Fisher, Kate Elder, or Kate Cummings, Mary Katherine Haroney was born in Budapest, Hungary, the oldest child of a wealthy physician. Her father moved to Mexico in 1862 to act as the personal physician for Emperor Maximilian I. In 1865, when the Mexican government imploded, the Haroney family relocated to Davenport, Iowa, where Dr. and Mrs. Haroney managed to die within the year, leaving Kate an orphan.

The intervening years are a blur, but by 1874 Kate was living in Dodge City, Kansas, where she sold her charms in a brothel owned by Nellie Earp, wife of James Earp, the less famous older brother of Virgil, Morgan and Wyatt. While living in Dodge, Kate met Doc Holliday, who would be part of her life for many years.

Kate could match Doc drink for drink, and her temper was, if anything, even more volatile than his. She carried a derringer in an ankle holster, and when crossed, could curse a trailhand back into church. After she’d had a few, her verbal tirades took on a cosmopolitan flavor as she assaulted her opponents in a hair-raising potpourri of Hungarian, French and English. Many times, sadly, when Kate slipped into banshee-mode, her target was Doc Holliday.

They were quite the couple. The phrase “love birds” can share space in the same sentence as the words “Doc” and “Kate” only as a means of defining what they absolutely were not. We’ve all had friends like Holliday and Big Nose (hopefully without the shootings and stabbings), or witnessed their like. You know, they start the night acting like Siamese twins attached at the lips, drinking and dancing without a care in the world, then, for reasons even they probably don’t understand, they spend the next few hours auditioning for the Springer show—yelling, chasing, crying, slapping, pouting—until, just at the very apogee of ugliness, they make up and sneak off to screw in the laundry room. Such was the daily reality of Kate’s relationship with Doc Holliday.

Kate’s epic drinking habits once got her and Holliday in a whole hill of trouble. They had been fighting and Kate, in a cloud of rage, went to a saloon, where she encountered Tombstone sheriff Johnny Behan. He was sitting with members of the feared outlaw gang, the Cowboys, lead by a rancid little psycho called Curley Bill Brocious and his frequent partner in crime, the gunman Johnny Ringo. (At a saloon in Prescott, Arizona, Ringo, a specialist at shooting unarmed men, offered to buy a man a whiskey, but when the man ordered a beer instead, Ringo shot him dead.)

The Cowboys were involved in a feud with the Earp brothers and Doc Holliday, a feud that Sheriff Behan encouraged because he was a weasel and felt threatened by the Earps’ influence in “his” town. When Kate thundered into the saloon, the boys saw an opportunity. Someone, surely one or more of the Cowboys, had recently robbed a Wells-Fargo wagon and murdered the driver. The Cowboys and Behan bought Kate as much whiskey as she could drink and persuaded her to swear that it was Doc Holliday who had done the deed, which she did right on the spot.

Kate recanted after she sobered up. Doc forgave her, and their relationship continued along its usual tempestuous course until Doc finally became so ill he required hospitalization. They never saw each other again, and Kate returned to Arizona, where she lived well into her 90s.

The building that was once the Grand Hotel in Tombstone is, today, Big Nose Kate’s Saloon. Numerous visitors have claimed that Kate’s ghost haunts its back rooms and corridors. Big Nose Kate was a hellion in life, a free spirit, an ass kicker and a name taker, so her lingering spirit is likely one spitfire of a spook.
-Modern Drunkard

Ok....someone put me up to this....there's a little man in my head, that makes scratch marks on the inside-side of my corneas, whenever If don't do exactly as he demands....

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