>> ^bareboards2:

Oh gawd. What a fricking long post. Sorry.


We need comment tags like wall-of-text, maybe? Used to have those a lot on GEnie.

You are so cool, I can't hardly stand it.

It is weird to have antenna tuned to these four words, isn't it? If nothing else comes out of this exchange, knowing that that happened for a day or two, and that you noticed the noticing, is deeply fascinating to me.

Thanks!

(You know, reading an online article with the word "man" in it counts towards this experiment. A biography of Einstein would have the word "man" in it...)


In reply to this comment by Stormsinger:
>> ^bareboards2:

Storm, you said you would be willing to do this experiment ... have you noticed any word situations like this yet? Gorilla, you never answered my question, so I am taking it that you are declining the experiment?

Have yet to run into any use of any of those words, other than your post... It's rather what I figured would happen. We'll see if it happens over the next day or two.

FWIW, I'm definitely primed to notice any of the four now though, which is a rather odd feeling in and of itself. :

>> ^bareboards2:

Storm, you said you would be willing to do this experiment ... have you noticed any word situations like this yet? Gorilla, you never answered my question, so I am taking it that you are declining the experiment?

Have yet to run into any use of any of those words, other than your post... It's rather what I figured would happen. We'll see if it happens over the next day or two.

FWIW, I'm definitely primed to notice any of the four now though, which is a rather odd feeling in and of itself.

I've wondered before if this sort of thing isn't a generational divide. Did your cohort become so used to arguing with your parents, who were actually sexist and racist and homophobic, while feeling you had to pay such careful attention to your own attitudes and vocabulary to avoid becoming like them; that you're not equipped to understand your children, for whom all that nonsense is so far behind and beneath them they don't bother to trammel themselves in the same way, when they try to explain why calling something 'gay' isn't a symptom of an underlying prejudice?
Nobody cares about that any more. None of the smart people anyway, who are themselves the most viciously oppressed and under-represented group in modern society.

I'm eagerly looking forward to the decline of gendered nouns and pronouns in general. It's such a bizarrely inappropriate way of communicating, the equivalent of appending "(...and by the way I'm talking about a male here)" to so many words that don't call for that detail.

Your two example sentences honestly, HONESTLY read exactly the same to me. This ought to be welcome news to you. It means the war is over, you can climb out of the trenches into the sunny world of a post-feminist future.

I'm running your experiment in a casual way, though as has been mentioned already those words come up too infrequently and in the wrong contexts to get much out of it so far. I'm afraid you'll be disappointed or assume bad faith if we report an underwhelming experience, but if we find these words as harmless as we say we do then that's all we can report.
Your 'radical' version is unsound because it involves projecting a specific attitude directly in to the experiment. Of course you'll find chauvinism - you put it there.

What do you think is the #1 reason 'girl' as a synonym for 'woman' is in more common usage than 'boy' for 'man'?

>> ^bareboards2:

I was reading Dan Savage's column yesterday (love that man, every bit of his potty mouthed being). The first sentence in one letter asking for advice was this:
"I'm a man who just got out of a two-year relationship with a great girl."
So if we do the experiment, the sentence now becomes:
"I'm a boy who just got out of a two-year relationship with a great woman."
gorillaman Stormsinger SevenFingers, do you honestly experience those two sentences exactly the same way? Are they conveying the same information?
Or are you startled by the experimental sentence? Is a different story being told about the relationship of these two people? Who has maturity? Who has, excuse me for using a charged word, more power? And with that power, do they have more responsibility?
Storm, you said you would be willing to do this experiment ... have you noticed any word situations like this yet? Gorilla, you never answered my question, so I am taking it that you are declining the experiment?

Since I am post-menopausal, if that Crazy PMS comment was directed at me, it misses the mark. No PMS. Menopause is behind me.

I'm practically a man now, hormonally.

>> ^SevenFingers:

Wow... Such a stupid debate on what girls/boys/men/women mean. Since Girls/Women are the same sex and Boys/Men are the same sex, wtf does it matter if one was used and not the other? What about Guys/Gals? Ladies/Germs? Dicks/C nts? Rational-doesn't-use-his-emotions-to-control-his-thoughts-asshole/Crazy-PMS-Over-reacting-Bitch?

Congratulations! Your comment has just received enough votes from the community to earn you 1 Power Point. Thank you for your quality contribution to VideoSift.

>> ^SevenFingers:

Wow... Such a stupid debate on what girls/boys/men/women mean. Since Girls/Women are the same sex and Boys/Men are the same sex, wtf does it matter if one was used and not the other? What about Guys/Gals? Ladies/Germs? Dicks/C nts? Rational-doesn't-use-his-emotions-to-control-his-thoughts-asshole/Crazy-PMS-Over-reacting-Bitch?


Taking it a bit fucking far, aren't you dude?

>> ^bareboards2:

@Stormsinger... then maybe you should do it for a week, if those four words don't show up in daily life? Two days? Three days? Especially if you don't watch TV.
If the sample size is too small, then the scientific and social experiment won't have enough data.
It'll show up in videos though. Titles on videos. Comments on videos. That might be a good source. After all, it popped on this video, which prompted this whole conversation!
FYI -- Your "different views" aren't different to me, which is why I say it is the same conversation. I have heard all this before, at various times over the past 40 years. It may be new to you. It isn't to me.
Really happy that you are up for it. This is something new for me, asking folks to try this. I'm really excited to learn about your experience. However it plays out.
Yippee!

You're missing the point. It doesn't matter how many conversations you've had...what's going on -here- is three separate conversations, not one. Just because they blur together for you, doesn't actually unify them.

Nor is the conversation new to me...although the last time I had it, was in college with my then rabidly feminist girlfriend. The girls I grew up with, and the women they became, made it impossible to think that they were in any way less than men. So even then it was mostly just tweaking her...she was cute when she got all wound up. She still is, but she's mellowed quite a bit and reserves her energy for fights that will make an actual difference.

>> ^bareboards2:

Same conversation for forty years. Sigh.
I woke up thinking about this. And before reading what awaited me here, I had an idea. An experiment.
A rational, non-paranoid experiment.
@Stormsinger @gorillaman.... Wanna do a scientific and social experiment? Just for laughs?
Spend one day and use the word "woman" to refer to anyone female over the age of 20. Doesn't have to have any big meaning to it. Just try it. If you happen to hear or read someone use the word "girl" to refer to a female over the age of 20, substitute the word "woman" in your mind.
During this day, for this rational, non-paranoid scientific and social experiment, substitute the word "boy" in your mind whenever you hear the word "man." Say the word "boy" instead of "man" when speaking.
Doing it for a week would be better. I'll settle for a day.
If you decide to try this rational, non-paranoid scientific and social experiment, I'd love to hear about your experience.
One day. Rational. Scientific. Social. Experiment.
Since the words are interchangeable, then you really shouldn't have any trouble doing this rational, scientific, social experiment.
You up for it? I think it would be intellectually interesting. Anybody else out there game for it? We could have a Sift-wide rational, scientific and social experiment!

I do find it a bit odd that you call these different views "the same conversation". I see each of us talking about somewhat different issues.


I'll give it a try...and what's more, I'll make a prediction, based on my own knowledge of my life.

If I hear any of those four words (man, woman, boy, girl) about someone over the age of 20, it'll be an unusual day. They're not words that come up in my normal conversations, and I don't watch TV. If I'm talking to or about someone, I tend to use names. If I'm talking about groups of people, they're rarely segregated by gender, so I would usually use "folks" or "people".

P.S. this quoting thing is starting to get annoying again. It can take anywhere from 1-3 carriage returns to get a blank line between paragraphs now. Did something change recently?

I won't go as far as gorillaman, and say you're being paranoid and oversensitive...that's not really for me to decide. But I will say that from what I'm hearing you say, it seems more of a "pet peeve" than something that actually is going to make a difference to anyone else. I can relate to that...I have a number of those myself (many related to the English language, like irregardless, and alot).

But he does have a good point about the way they use the term "men" being in reference to a rite of passage, and I have indeed heard similar statements from women (well girls, technically...too immature to be called women).

I don't agree with him about feminism in general...I do think there are many gender-related issues still worthy of support. I just don't find this to be one of them, even after having given it a fair amount of thought and debate over the years. Girl, boy, kid...there are many different uses for those words, and I do use them pretty evenly. Well, kids probably gets a bit more use, because it covers multi-gendered groups of people < 40 years old. >> ^bareboards2:

Sorry my response was so pissy..... I am just frustrated that after forty years of talking about this, I am still hearing the EXACT SAME RESPONSES from folks who don't take the time to actually think about the topic. It all just parroted back, the same old same old.
I sound like a broken record because I hear a broken record. For forty years.
Anyway, had you gone back and listened to the beginning of the clip where they call themselves "real men" or something like that, my comment might have made more sense. Can you imagine three young women saying "if I do this amazing act of bravery, then I'll prove myself as a real woman"? We just don't talk like that in our culture. And that makes me sad. And had done for FORTY YEARS.
If it is still going in ten years, I shall be even more sad.
>> ^bareboards2:
You are off by decades....
You boys are so touchy. I just made a suggestion that you think about something in a different way and your panties are all in a bunch.
It wouldn't hurt to think a new thought. Just lie back and relax. You might enjoy it.
>> ^Stormsinger:
>> ^bareboards2:
For folks out there who call women "girls", please note the use of the word "men" in the beginning of this vid, and store it away for the future.

What use of "men"? I can't take watching it again...
I assume it was one of them, referring to the three of them? Worrying about that is like worrying about whether the pug down the street calls himself a puppy or a dog. Utterly pointless and irrelevant.
As far as I'm concerned, the terms "girls" or "boys" are totally appropriate for my friends that are my age or younger (which doesn't rule out too many of my friends any more at 50+), or when used in informal conversations. I'd be unlikely to use it in a speech I was giving, but in day-to-day life, talking about a boys' night out, or girls' night out...well, I can't see why it matters.
BB2, I generally agree with you, but this particular issue carries distinct hints of college-age-rabid-feminist. My advice would be to pick fights that are worth fighting. Revisit this one to see if it still seems important in a decade or so...I suspect it won't.

>> ^bareboards2:

Sorry my response was so pissy..... I am just frustrated that after forty years of talking about this, I am still hearing the EXACT SAME RESPONSES from folks who don't take the time to actually think about the topic. It all just parroted back, the same old same old.
I sound like a broken record because I hear a broken record. For forty years.
Anyway, had you gone back and listened to the beginning of the clip where they call themselves "real men" or something like that, my comment might have made more sense. Can you imagine three young women saying "if I do this amazing act of bravery, then I'll prove myself as a real woman"? We just don't talk like that in our culture. And that makes me sad. And had done for FORTY YEARS.
If it is still going in ten years, I shall be even more sad.


I have some exciting new thoughts for you to try out, but let's start with the mundane specific case of the gentlemen in the video. It seems obvious that they're contrasting 'men' with 'boys' rather than 'men' with 'women/girls'. That's the old rite of passage being invoked, nothing to do with sex at all. Being British, they also can't help talking with a certain degree of irony that some might miss. These points are only worth making because they highlight your paranoia and oversensitivity.

Sex is ultimately irrelevant; at a 50/50 split it's too shallow a distinction to be meaningful in most cases. Gender is a personal construct, which scarcely signifies outside the individual who inhabits it. If someone, for whatever reason incomprehensible to us, chooses to incorporate their ability to tolerate capsaicin into their gender identity then it's really none of our business. We've certainly no cause to be threatened by it on a personal or cultural level.

I don't consider myself to have a gender. The rational thing to do is treat people as individuals. When you talk about the cultural implications of calling someone a girl, that means as much to me as a teenagers complaining about discrimination against vampires.

It's possible to think very seriously about a topic and decide it doesn't matter. It's just as important to point out what doesn't matter as what does. Then we can stop wasting our energy, forty years worth in your case, on trifles - and concentrate on what's actually worth thinking about. Feminists seem to only think about things that don't matter, which is why everyone hates them. Every human being on earth, and I mean that literally, agrees that the various sexes and genders don't need to be assigned different rights, or at least that we're not sophisticated enough to be able to tease out and codify the very subtle differences between those groups, individuals, and any individual at different moments in their life. That's where the issue ends. There is nothing else to talk about, but when you've squandered so much time on and identified yourself so strongly with such a simple little idea you have to invent a lot of nonsense non-issues to rant on about just to make it all seem worthwhile.

Stop being a feminist; start being a rational person who naturally agrees with the single sensible point feminists have to make and go and do something useful with your time.

>> ^bareboards2:

Sorry my response was so pissy..... I am just frustrated that after forty years of talking about this, I am still hearing the EXACT SAME RESPONSES from folks who don't take the time to actually think about the topic. It all just parroted back, the same old same old.
I sound like a broken record because I hear a broken record. For forty years.
Anyway, had you gone back and listened to the beginning of the clip where they call themselves "real men" or something like that, my comment might have made more sense. Can you imagine three young women saying "if I do this amazing act of bravery, then I'll prove myself as a real woman"? We just don't talk like that in our culture. And that makes me sad. And had done for FORTY YEARS.
If it is still going in ten years, I shall be even more sad.
>> ^bareboards2:
You are off by decades....
You boys are so touchy. I just made a suggestion that you think about something in a different way and your panties are all in a bunch.
It wouldn't hurt to think a new thought. Just lie back and relax. You might enjoy it.
>> ^Stormsinger:
>> ^bareboards2:
For folks out there who call women "girls", please note the use of the word "men" in the beginning of this vid, and store it away for the future.

What use of "men"? I can't take watching it again...
I assume it was one of them, referring to the three of them? Worrying about that is like worrying about whether the pug down the street calls himself a puppy or a dog. Utterly pointless and irrelevant.
As far as I'm concerned, the terms "girls" or "boys" are totally appropriate for my friends that are my age or younger (which doesn't rule out too many of my friends any more at 50+), or when used in informal conversations. I'd be unlikely to use it in a speech I was giving, but in day-to-day life, talking about a boys' night out, or girls' night out...well, I can't see why it matters.
BB2, I generally agree with you, but this particular issue carries distinct hints of college-age-rabid-feminist. My advice would be to pick fights that are worth fighting. Revisit this one to see if it still seems important in a decade or so...I suspect it won't.




I...still don't understand your complaint on this one. Are you upset they referred to themselves as men? or are you saying because they're using the term "real men" they're trying to.. I don't know, describe an aspect you feel isn't reflected upon women?

Or is the argument that 'men' still refer to women as 'girls'?

I see you making an argument about something you're definitely passionate about.. but I really just have no clue as to what that is.

Sorry my response was so pissy..... I am just frustrated that after forty years of talking about this, I am still hearing the EXACT SAME RESPONSES from folks who don't take the time to actually think about the topic. It all just parroted back, the same old same old.

I sound like a broken record because I hear a broken record. For forty years.

Anyway, had you gone back and listened to the beginning of the clip where they call themselves "real men" or something like that, my comment might have made more sense. Can you imagine three young women saying "if I do this amazing act of bravery, then I'll prove myself as a real woman"? We just don't talk like that in our culture. And that makes me sad. And had done for FORTY YEARS.

If it is still going in ten years, I shall be even more sad.

>> ^bareboards2:

You are off by decades....
You boys are so touchy. I just made a suggestion that you think about something in a different way and your panties are all in a bunch.
It wouldn't hurt to think a new thought. Just lie back and relax. You might enjoy it.

>> ^Stormsinger:
>> ^bareboards2:
For folks out there who call women "girls", please note the use of the word "men" in the beginning of this vid, and store it away for the future.

What use of "men"? I can't take watching it again...
I assume it was one of them, referring to the three of them? Worrying about that is like worrying about whether the pug down the street calls himself a puppy or a dog. Utterly pointless and irrelevant.
As far as I'm concerned, the terms "girls" or "boys" are totally appropriate for my friends that are my age or younger (which doesn't rule out too many of my friends any more at 50+), or when used in informal conversations. I'd be unlikely to use it in a speech I was giving, but in day-to-day life, talking about a boys' night out, or girls' night out...well, I can't see why it matters.
BB2, I generally agree with you, but this particular issue carries distinct hints of college-age-rabid-feminist. My advice would be to pick fights that are worth fighting. Revisit this one to see if it still seems important in a decade or so...I suspect it won't.

You are off by decades....

You boys are so touchy. I just made a suggestion that you think about something in a different way and your panties are all in a bunch.

It wouldn't hurt to think a new thought. Just lie back and relax. You might enjoy it.


>> ^Stormsinger:

>> ^bareboards2:
For folks out there who call women "girls", please note the use of the word "men" in the beginning of this vid, and store it away for the future.

What use of "men"? I can't take watching it again...
I assume it was one of them, referring to the three of them? Worrying about that is like worrying about whether the pug down the street calls himself a puppy or a dog. Utterly pointless and irrelevant.
As far as I'm concerned, the terms "girls" or "boys" are totally appropriate for my friends that are my age or younger (which doesn't rule out too many of my friends any more at 50+), or when used in informal conversations. I'd be unlikely to use it in a speech I was giving, but in day-to-day life, talking about a boys' night out, or girls' night out...well, I can't see why it matters.
BB2, I generally agree with you, but this particular issue carries distinct hints of college-age-rabid-feminist. My advice would be to pick fights that are worth fighting. Revisit this one to see if it still seems important in a decade or so...I suspect it won't.

>> ^bareboards2:

For folks out there who call women "girls", please note the use of the word "men" in the beginning of this vid, and store it away for the future.

What use of "men"? I can't take watching it again...

I assume it was one of them, referring to the three of them? Worrying about that is like worrying about whether the pug down the street calls himself a puppy or a dog. Utterly pointless and irrelevant.

As far as I'm concerned, the terms "girls" or "boys" are totally appropriate for my friends that are my age or younger (which doesn't rule out too many of my friends any more at 50+), or when used in informal conversations. I'd be unlikely to use it in a speech I was giving, but in day-to-day life, talking about a boys' night out, or girls' night out...well, I can't see why it matters.

BB2, I generally agree with you, but this particular issue carries distinct hints of college-age-rabid-feminist. My advice would be to pick fights that are worth fighting. Revisit this one to see if it still seems important in a decade or so...I suspect it won't.