At least for Christianity, Hitchens is really arguing against a minority position. This "screw the world, we want the apocalypse so we can go to heaven" mentality is a small portion and has not been the historical position of Christianity. This came about with American dispensationalism in the mid-19th century, where it's still confined to today so it's not only the minority position in Christianity, but also American Christian denominations. These are the churches that sadly ignore the fact that a lot of Jesus' ministry included feeding and healing the poor and outcast. These are people who ignore what Jesus said - that the law could be summed up with "love God and love your neighbor as yourself." In practice, these are the churches that never help their communities because they have an Us vs. Them mentality. Churches that say, "Screw you, go to hell" totally missed it. What did Jesus say about your enemies? Love them. Jesus asked God to forgive his murderers as he was dying a torturous death.

Hitchens is arguing against the minority position.

i'm little more qualified than you in this area..in this case im an ornithologist and you're some guy who saw daffy duck..this is a huge issue in the church right now..over half the church is roiled in complete apostacy..


Well... yeah. It's cool that you've figured out true Christianity but you have to understand you're not the only one who thinks so (and you can't all be right). Do you think you know the Bible better than, say, an Eastern Orthodox priest? You don't. Oh God how you don't. I've seen nothing in your posts to demonstrate more than a passing, only-my-denomination-which-isn't-really-a-denomination-it's-just-the-truth understanding of the Bible or Christianity in general - whereas Dr. Priest has been studying his whole life, and not just the Bible but delicate moral arguments reflected upon for centuries by a unified body. And he's praying for God to bless all Orthodox Christians. He's specifically excluding you from his prayers because you're a nutcase apostate - just like you're allowing into definition only the Christians you want based on the criteria you got from your nutcase, exclusive, non-Christian (according to 80% of the world's other Christians) teachers/pastors/whatever.

Think you know your Bible better than a devout Jehovah's Witness? Again, you don't. Dude has been arguing with other Christians 4 hours a day his entire life. He's 100% confident that he's gonna live on Paradise Earth talking to pandas, eating watermelon, and not having to hear anything from you ever again. He believes something radically, radically different than you and he's using the same book (well, mostly the same anyways) to support his wacky-by-any-objective-measure belief. I don't think JWs have a natural reading of the Bible - but I don't think "mainstream American Christians" have one either, and to the extent they do it 100% isn't reflected in their behavior or politics. Jesus's politics were so far to the left of Democrats and Republicans, it doesn't even compute.

Guys in this video? They have just as much claim to Christianity as you. You think his fruits are rotten? Obviously he doesn't think so. He thinks he's saving souls from homosexuality. That's, like, super awesome mangosteen tasty-time fruit. Does he show "love, one to another"? He thinks so. He thinks he's showing ++extra love because he's willing to do the uncomfortable and be the only one to reach out to these kids and save them from everlasting sorrow. I think he has a really good shot at you, in fact: why don't you want to help these kids? If you believe homosexuality is an abomination (which you'd better), isn't it worth some discomfort now if it has any chance of turning them on the right path? Is it because you've been corrupted by modern liberal values? He's so sad that, like, 60% of modern Christians have left the true path and opened themselves to worldly influences/the devil.

Me? I think a true follower of Christ would welcome anyone to call themselves Christian if they believed in Christ and showed love one to another - and certainly wouldn't attempt to exclude other Christians based on their affiliations, ritual foibles, or doctrinal quibbles. From first Corinthians:

Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided?


Unfortunately, though, it doesn't work to build a normal religion on top of Christ's teachings, because his teachings prohibit all the ways a normal religion works: divisions, shame, sanctimony, self-righteousness, greed, hate-for-those-different. How can you really get a crowd going if you're just telling them to be nice, accepting, and peaceful without stoking their egos, inflating your authority as a preacher, claiming an exclusive connection with God and truth, suggesting doubt is of the devil, and simultaneously making the congregation feel unworthy because of their secret sins? So modern Christianity (in all its wacky rainbow) just have to make do and shoehorn Jesus into "religion" (the same psychological tricks that have been used throughout history to subjugate people).

But I don't know why I'm talking to you (and I suppose mostly I'm not). I don't have any expectation that you're discussing in good faith or that you're at all permeable to reason. I've seen your beliefs on science before, and they're clear, clear signs that you're not interested at all in considering anything that doesn't already fit with your beliefs.

In fact, just to be sure I don't have to hear your moronic rebuttal or something, I'll give you an easy excuse to not talk to me because I'm oh-so-mean-and-bad: I think you're a fantastic moron.

Well, Christianity as it is practiced in America is extremely skewed..most of those evengelicals, the trinity broadcasting network, the lunatics known as the republican party..their brand of Christianity is a disgrace and a perversion. Things like the prosperity gospel should make any Christian sick to their stomach. Sadly a lot of people buy into it because living prudently, with a healthy dose of self-denial is not very popular in this gross materialism we are drowning in. I can understand why atheists cant stand these people..because I cant stand them either.

>> ^dag:
It's great of you to concede this SB.
Christianity in America is more like a personal empowerment and wealth creation seminar than a religion. Christ never said "the Lord helps those who help themselves" - though that's the primary tenant that most American Christians seem to follow. Maybe Tony Robbins is the second coming.
>> ^shinyblurry:
Sadly, he's right. I was fairly astonished that so many Christians didn't see anything wrong with celebrating someones death, Bin Laden or not. Though, what Bill Maher doesn't mention is that there was also a large number of Christians who did understand that was wrong and spoke out against it.
Many people do follow Christ in name only. The bible says they are only borrowing the name at a price. It's really no different however than anything else human beings do. That humans can mess up something good should be no surprise to anyone.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

It's great of you to concede this SB.

Christianity in America is more like a personal empowerment and wealth creation seminar than a religion. Christ never said "the Lord helps those who help themselves" - though that's the primary tenant that most American Christians seem to follow. Maybe Tony Robbins is the second coming.

>> ^shinyblurry:

Sadly, he's right. I was fairly astonished that so many Christians didn't see anything wrong with celebrating someones death, Bin Laden or not. Though, what Bill Maher doesn't mention is that there was also a large number of Christians who did understand that was wrong and spoke out against it.
Many people do follow Christ in name only. The bible says they are only borrowing the name at a price. It's really no different however than anything else human beings do. That humans can mess up something good should be no surprise to anyone.

Do atheists commit crimes all out of proportion to their percentage of the population?


>> ^poolcleaner:

"No Christians anywhere on earth have it better than American Christians." Does that mean you can't complain about American atheists and agnostics?

>> ^quantumushroom:

No "minorities" anywhere on earth have it better than American "minorities". Isn't this the guy who said he loves Black people but hates N-ers?


"No Christians anywhere on earth have it better than American Christians." Does that mean you can't complain about American atheists and agnostics?

This is one of those things where a believer would say and do anything they believe their god told them to do that comes really close to mental illness in my opinion so much so that if the person themselves doesn't question it...they are probably mentally ill.

However, I am not so far removed from belief that I can't say that there isn't the possibility that a person or maybe a group of people could experience the will of something greater than themselves. Allowing a person or group of people to survive or do something where the odds would say they should have died/failed.

It's just when it comes to willfully harming yourself (not putting yourself in harms way but actually hurting yourself because something/someone says to) or purposefully harming another under the command of a "god" is the line that keeps me from religions. You have every right to protect yourself and others, but when you move into murderous rampage/thuggery is where you lose for sure. There's obviously other things I have issues with when it comes to belief and religions, but killing "in the name of _________________" is a big issue and has a long history of being used to justify many things.

I understand why this thinking exists...it's an easy way to erase your culpability and an easy fundamental to fall back on it. But it's falls dangerously close to "They die because _________ is/are better." Where the blank is I, whites, americans, christians, etc.

>> ^schmawy:
I chafe against a lot of religion, particularly a lot of American Christianity. I've seen it make people suffer unnecessarily. But on the other hand, the purpose and origins of faith is pretty clear to me, and I wouldn't choose to take it away from people if I could.
I think a lot of prayer is akin to imploring a car to start on a cold winter day (c'mon, c'mon, start!). We all know how well that works. I think it does half the time. I also believe in accountability to something larger than just yourself, even if they are simply moral principals.


"Accountability to something larger than yourself" reads as rejecting your own responsibility and accountability. I also think it is moral cowardice to say that exactly moral principals are not made by us, but by something different.

I chafe against a lot of religion, particularly a lot of American Christianity. I've seen it make people suffer unnecessarily. But on the other hand, the purpose and origins of faith is pretty clear to me, and I wouldn't choose to take it away from people if I could.

I think a lot of prayer is akin to imploring a car to start on a cold winter day (c'mon, c'mon, start!). We all know how well that works. I think it does half the time. I also believe in accountability to something larger than just yourself, even if they are simply moral principals.

As much as I have a natural fondness for minority religions in general, the more I learn about Mormonism, the more concerned I become about it. Like other conservative denominations and offshoots of American Christianity--the Assemblies of God and the Jehovah's Witnesses come to mind--it contains dangerous apocalyptic strains and a toxic focus on moral purity--where moral purity is defined less by genuine enlightenment and wisdom and more by adherence to sexually repressive, patriarchal norms.

I sincerely appreciate your sober and intelligent criticism (on a subject that is all too often tainted by ignorance and name-calling, just look at the comments sections on YouTube for any video relating to Israel/Palestine). I think I may have just viewed the video in a different light. I viewed it in terms of Christian theology and the questions of peace and justice, two characteristics I find to be implicitly lacking in American Christian Zionism.

I do find Hart to be quite propagandistic, but I still feel as though Dr. Sizer's critiques are sound, and important. After (very recently, as in the last half hour) reading about PressTV, I completely understand your doubts concerning partiality; but I still find the conversation to be revealing and interesting.

On a more personal note, I consider myself to be a supporter of the sovereignty of both Israelis and Palestinians (how bland and idealistic I know); I just feel that this video explores an interesting facet of Americans' attitudes towards the conflict.

Burdturgler, are you talking about christians being tortured in another country, or something? The context of the video is based entirely in the current American environment, so bringing up situations from the past or other locales is not really helping the discussion.

Arguing that American christians are in any way discriminated against or "bashed" in America, is a fairly empty argument, imo.

Ultimately, it doesn't help the situation at all to say "christian's are bashed too" - when the real problem is that the worst of the christian group are perpetrating the crimes and need to be held accountable. Not only is the comment of "christian bashing" greatly untrue (within the context of America), it distracts from solving the real problem. Instead of trying to protect the christian image, I would focus inwardly towards your group, acknowledge what's going on in the dregs of christian society, and set out to solve it. Without doing that, you're indirectly part of the problem, simply standing by as the minority of your majority (if it is indeed a minority) muddy the waters for everyone.

>> ^blackjackshellac:
Anyone here who says that "moderate Muslims follow their religion more closely" than "moderate Christians", seriously needs to pull their head out of their ass and look around at the hatred being spread by American Christians towards Muslims. Granted, there is a lot of hatred going both ways, which is why everyone should consider eliminating this ridiculous belief in mythical sky fairies and the inane scribbling of iron age schizophrenics.


So much ignorant atheist hate, so little time...

>> ^blackjackshellac:
Anyone here who says that "moderate Muslims follow their religion more closely" than "moderate Christians", seriously needs to pull their head out of their ass and look around at the hatred being spread by American Christians towards Muslims. Granted, there is a lot of hatred going both ways, which is why everyone should consider eliminating this ridiculous belief in mythical sky fairies and the inane scribbling of iron age schizophrenics.


Hatered != following bible.

Anyone here who says that "moderate Muslims follow their religion more closely" than "moderate Christians", seriously needs to pull their head out of their ass and look around at the hatred being spread by American Christians towards Muslims. Granted, there is a lot of hatred going both ways, which is why everyone should consider eliminating this ridiculous belief in mythical sky fairies and the inane scribbling of iron age schizophrenics.