I'm saying it's not a choice at all -- who the hell would choose so much exclusion and persecution? I'm disappointed this guy even suggested that it was anything but 100% natural.

Or maybe it's the case that in an environment where to question anything in the bible directly is political suicide, he's using indirect language to say what he's not saying in words.>> ^FlowersInHisHair:

>> ^messenger:
The only thing I didn't like about this guy was that he suggested it just might be possible that homosexuality isn't a lifestyle choice, that people don't just take up gayness like they take up skateboarding.

Wait, there are a lot of double negatives there. Are you saying you think it is a lifestyle choice, or that you think it isn't?

>> ^messenger:

The only thing I didn't like about this guy was that he suggested it just might be possible that homosexuality isn't a lifestyle choice, that people don't just take up gayness like they take up skateboarding.

Wait, there are a lot of double negatives there. Are you saying you think it is a lifestyle choice, or that you think it isn't?

>> ^jwray:

>> ^LarsaruS:
Morals, morality and ethics does not exist. They are complete bullshit people make up and they change constantly. What is considered morally and ethically right by you might not be seen that way by the person sitting next to you. And 25 years from now how you feel about the morality and ethics of an action probably wont be the same as today. This is why Morals(tm) should have zero to do with lawmaking and government decisions. It just creates a lot of BS down the road. Like this non-issue.

As both an atheist and a liberal, I vehemently disagree with this. Only actions that harm others without their consent should be illegal. Only actions that harm others without their consent are capable of being immoral. Actions which are immoral are a subset of those that harm others without their consent. Actions which should be illegal are a subset of actions which are immoral.
"You can't legislate morality" is just a copout to prevent the masses from forcing their inane bronze-age-myth derived morality on everyone. Real morality and just law are perfectly compatible.


Maybe I misunderstood/misread you but to me it seems like you feel I believe gays should not be allowed to marry? Since I believe they should be able to I feel like you must have misunderstood me. My comment was only directed towards the flawed notion of morals, morality and ethics as an absolute set in stone ~2k years ago in a desert. This is also why the entire gay-marriage-controversy is utter BS. It is make belief morals enshrined in law fucking real peoples lives up for absolutely no reason at all.

I completely agree that actions that harm others without consent should be illegal. However, I do not like your circular reasoning for the reason why it should be illegal. I believe that it should be illegal because it hurts another human being not because it is "immoral" as morals are fluid and changes a lot. 500-1500 years ago rape and pillage during war wasn't seen as immoral, just effective. Today you get court martialed and possibly shot/hung for it.

If your actions cause pain or discomfort to another human being try to refrain from it, or they might do the same to you (or worse!). That is also the reason why you shouldn't mess with people. Because if you break the I-wont-try-to-kill-you-and-you-wont-try-to-kill-me pact that we base our coexistence and civilization on you might just cause your own demise.

Congratulations! Your comment has just received enough votes from the community to earn you 1 Power Point. Thank you for your quality contribution to VideoSift.

This achievement has earned you your "Silver Tongue" Level 11 Badge!

>> ^quantumushroom:

What's the cutoff? Republicans are less than 18% of the population. Can we take away some of their rights?
I assume you support taxing people that make more money at a higher rate, punishing their success in the name of a "fair share" which is then distributed unfairly and wastefully, don't you? I assume you support preventing people in high crime areas from owning firearms, infringing on their right to self-defense with the best possible tools?

What it comes down to is gays and lesbians aren't hurting anyone by their nature.
Then do you support polygamy?


I wholeheartedly support consensual polygamy (i.e. outside of the context of cults that indoctrinate children and coerce behavior).

>> ^LarsaruS:

Morals, morality and ethics does not exist. They are complete bullshit people make up and they change constantly. What is considered morally and ethically right by you might not be seen that way by the person sitting next to you. And 25 years from now how you feel about the morality and ethics of an action probably wont be the same as today. This is why Morals(tm) should have zero to do with lawmaking and government decisions. It just creates a lot of BS down the road. Like this non-issue.


As both an atheist and a liberal, I vehemently disagree with this. Only actions that harm others without their consent should be illegal. Only actions that harm others without their consent are capable of being immoral. Actions which are immoral are a subset of those that harm others without their consent. Actions which should be illegal are a subset of actions which are immoral.

"You can't legislate morality" is just a copout to prevent the masses from forcing their inane bronze-age-myth derived morality on everyone. Real morality and just law are perfectly compatible.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

Agreed, and really happy with the dicussion for this thread in general.
>> ^SDGundamX:

@heropsycho
That was one of the most patient and well thought-out responses I've seen on the Sift in a long time. Kudos to you.

>> ^quantumushroom:
I assume you support taxing people that make more money at a higher rate, punishing their success in the name of a "fair share" which is then distributed unfairly and wastefully, don't you? I assume you support preventing people in high crime areas from owning firearms, infringing on their right to self-defense with the best possible tools?
[snip]
Then do you support polygamy?


[edited because I originally missed your first paragraph]

If you quote or @name me, you've got a better chance of me getting back to you. I only saw this by accident.

But to answer your questions, I like the idea of a flat income tax or none at all. I'd rather see gigantic sales tax, and other consumption taxes, than the convoluted mess that is the income tax system.

I've said on several occasions that, although I have no interest in owning a gun, I support gun ownership. I don't think the 2nd amendment guarantees the right to own firearms outside of organized militias, but I support that right either way. I'm not against a certain level of regulation, however.

And finally, yes, I support polygamy; and for the same reasons that I support gay marriage: because I don't believe the government has any place telling consenting adults what they can do with each other. Polygamy is illegal because it "leads to" spousal abuse, just like pot is illegal because it "leads to" gang violence.

You seem to still be under the insane notion that I'm a liberal. Is it because I call you out on your pseudo-conservative nonsense?

>> ^quantumushroom:

1) I don't give a crap that he's half-Black. I'm more concerned about his lack of qualifications for the Office, bowing to dictators, high unemployment, high gas prices, etc. Your Emperor wears no clothes.
2) Since I'm a Jew by blood, I'll have to get back to you on that.
3) Rapists should be put to death. Find me a liberal who will state the same. If you can.
>> ^Ryjkyj:

>> ^quantumushroom:
What's the cutoff? Republicans are less than 18% of the population. Can we take away some of their rights?
I assume you support taxing people that make more money at a higher rate, punishing their success in the name of a "fair share" which is then distributed unfairly and wastefully, don't you? I assume you support preventing people in high crime areas from owning firearms, infringing on their right to self-defense with the best possible tools?

What it comes down to is gays and lesbians aren't hurting anyone by their nature.
Then do you support polygamy?

I assume you are afraid of the president because he's black. And that you think Jews are the cause of society's problems.
Don't you in fact believe that rape victims were asking for it?



Hey QM,

Rapists SHOULD be put to death.

Now what?

>> ^quantumushroom:
blahblahblah I'm repressing my own homosexuality blahblah

What about irresponsible sexual behavior between heterosexuals? If gays are 3% of the population, then we have a lot more to gain by interfering in the bedroom activities of the other 97%. QM, when did you want to start monitoring the sex habits of straight people?

Also, since Citizen's United, conservatives don't get to complain about activist judges bypassing the will of the people. Just say'n.

>> ^shinyblurry:

God loves everyone, you included, and He does want you around. He doesn't create people He doesn't love. This video completely misses the point on both sides of the issue. The issue that God has with homosexuals is the same issue that He has with any human being. Every single one of us has sinned and have fallen short..and there is no one good, not one. I myself am personally disgusted by all of the prejudice that Christians show homosexuals. It is not what Christ taught, at all. Christ taught us to love one another, and to show that love always. If a Christian treats you like that, they are not following what He said.
>> ^FlowersInHisHair:
As a gay atheist, it doesn't matter a jot to me whether or not the desert god Yahweh "wants me around" or not.
I don't believe we were created by a god in the first place, and since it also supposedly created HIV, snakes, ebola, Uwe Boll, river blindness, periods, earthquakes and asbestos, I don't think an argument based on that god's idea of "good" and "bad" is built on solid ground. So while I appreciate what this guy's trying to do, this argument doesn't move me much.


I don't want to be impolite, because like the fellow in the video I think you mean well, so I'll just say "thanks, but no thanks".

Unfortunately, we live in a democratic republic. That doesn't mean a free country--that just means a way a government runs. It does not actually prohibit or discourage a-holes from running other's lives. Remember, we only have the freedom elected officals give us, so we must elect them wisely (And that ain't gonna happen.)

He does address the issue "Get off the gay hating because god hates you."

>> ^GeeSussFreeK:
>> ^bareboards2:
Methinks you missed the point, my friend.
He came up with a religious argument to counter religious stupidity.
This may be a turning point.
>> ^rottenseed:
upvote for the sentiment but he totally missed the point. The point being "what the fuck do we, the government, have any business in people's sexuality as long as its not hindering another?"


Nahhh, it does miss the point. He ends up supporting the course of action you and I would support, but he never addresses the 500 pound gorilla in the room, what business just government have to decide what marriage even is? Isn't that completely personal and private. The only reason we really have it is to stop Mormons from practicing their religion, and for money...always the money.
I will upvote because he seems like a good and decent man, however. Bold, frankness isn't something you get from a lot of political types.

Right after I started kissing yours, Goofus.


>> ^KnivesOut:

QM, when did you stop beating your wife?>> ^quantumushroom:
What's the cutoff? Republicans are less than 18% of the population. Can we take away some of their rights?
I assume you support taxing people that make more money at a higher rate, punishing their success in the name of a "fair share" which is then distributed unfairly and wastefully, don't you? I assume you support preventing people in high crime areas from owning firearms, infringing on their right to self-defense with the best possible tools?

What it comes down to is gays and lesbians aren't hurting anyone by their nature.
Then do you support polygamy?

God loves everyone, you included, and He does want you around. He doesn't create people He doesn't love. This video completely misses the point on both sides of the issue. The issue that God has with homosexuals is the same issue that He has with any human being. Every single one of us has sinned and have fallen short..and there is no one good, not one. I myself am personally disgusted by all of the prejudice that Christians show homosexuals. It is not what Christ taught, at all. Christ taught us to love one another, and to show that love always. If a Christian treats you like that, they are not following what He said.

>> ^FlowersInHisHair:
As a gay atheist, it doesn't matter a jot to me whether or not the desert god Yahweh "wants me around" or not.
I don't believe we were created by a god in the first place, and since it also supposedly created HIV, snakes, ebola, Uwe Boll, river blindness, periods, earthquakes and asbestos, I don't think an argument based on that god's idea of "good" and "bad" is built on solid ground. So while I appreciate what this guy's trying to do, this argument doesn't move me much.

1) I don't give a crap that he's half-Black. I'm more concerned about his lack of qualifications for the Office, bowing to dictators, high unemployment, high gas prices, etc. Your Emperor wears no clothes.

2) Since I'm a Jew by blood, I'll have to get back to you on that.

3) Rapists should be put to death. Find me a liberal who will state the same. If you can.

>> ^Ryjkyj:


>> ^quantumushroom:
What's the cutoff? Republicans are less than 18% of the population. Can we take away some of their rights?
I assume you support taxing people that make more money at a higher rate, punishing their success in the name of a "fair share" which is then distributed unfairly and wastefully, don't you? I assume you support preventing people in high crime areas from owning firearms, infringing on their right to self-defense with the best possible tools?

What it comes down to is gays and lesbians aren't hurting anyone by their nature.
Then do you support polygamy?

I assume you are afraid of the president because he's black. And that you think Jews are the cause of society's problems.
Don't you in fact believe that rape victims were asking for it?