That last point got me thinking about how the image of the Knight defender, is of a man who protects and defends a woman (princess or village girl, the roles very class consciousness free) and does NOT get to sleep with her. Not his place, not his role, not his buisness. But ensuring who she does sleep with is HER buisness, and not that of any random guy, thats his place. Giving to her the physical strength to balance that of any would be peruser who's attentions she does not wish.

I wonder if this "not getting the girl subclause" is a part of why the image of the role has gone out of favor.

Still, it did always appeal to me (not the imagery of a woman being weak, but rather, of my being needed/wanted, and lets face it, intelligence is not socially valued in a man either) but then in my adolecene being a 9stone glasses wearing non sporty nerd scifi/fantasy reading "nice guy" it would do wouldn't it.

Yes! Thank you Persephone, I can so relate to everything you've said in this post... there are very dangerous downsides to being considered 'beautiful'.

At 25 I am still in that age bracket of youth that gets all the appearance based attention, and while I would probably not consider myself one of the great beauties of the world I do clean up pretty decent... am one of those girls who can go either way really, it all depends on how much effort I exert in the morning, whether or not I'm wearing contacts or glasses, and what my hair has decided to do that day. And also, I'm thin and petite, and to steal a phrase from oxdottir, 'given the local standards' that is a rarer thing by the day, and so I suppose, more highly valued in some way.

But being someone who can literally go either way (have often been told that I'm that type of girl who can go from nerdy to hottie in an hour (the movie 'She's All That' was the bane of my existence in High School- asshole jocks decided they would run some retarded experiment on me similar to the movie, I didn't realize it at first, couldn't understand why they were being nice to me all of a sudden until one of my friends found out and told me, the amount of hurt that caused is unspeakable and I skipped school for several days and ended up getting into trouble because of attendance. Eventually I grew a pair and told them to all fuck off and hid in the art room until graduation))... but anyway, it has, I think, given me a lot of insight into how this culture responds to the varying degrees of beauty. Because, on days that I've actually cleaned myself up and bothered with the hair and the clothes etc, I too have been whistled at, gawked at, and yes, even followed... I once had a guy honk at me from his car, then pull a U-Turn into a parking lot, jump out of his car and follow me for several blocks about twenty paces behind, the entire time calling to me and trying to get me to go home with him (how is that even acceptable????). I had to ditch him by ducking into a YMCA and hiding out in the lobby for about ten minutes until he wandered off.

And well its nice and all, being considered pretty, it can be bothersome, and indeed very scary sometimes, which I suppose it why these days I generally leave the glasses on unless I know I will be escorted or at least not off by myself (and frankly, I'm pretty damn lazy most mornings). I've also taken self defense courses, and carry mace with me at all times. I look back now to several years ago, when I was younger, and am sometimes amazed at the careless behavior and the situations I found myself in at times and I shudder to think what could have happened. I would advise any women to learn to protect herself and to be on guard when out alone, always walk with a purpose and carry some form of protection on herself.

I was the quintessential ugly duckling. The metamorphosis was happened quickly, during my 16th summer: I got my braces off, got boobs, threw away my glasses and did a complete hair and makeup switch. My dad was Overseas on business for 6 weeks and didn't recognize me in the airport. The kids at school went nuts. It kind of pissed me off that I only getting attention because of the way I looked, so I played up the beauty queen crap for most of the next ten years, taking my looks wherever they'd lead...a couple of modeling jobs, sex-kitten roles in school or community theater. Lot's of boyfriends and careless behavior.

So...as it turns out, I'm seeing more of that ugly duckling these days. I'm closing in on 50. They say 'beauty is fleeting' and I'm on the other side again. This time I don't thnk anyones going nuts except me.

Yes, it is fleeting, woe be unto those who do not realize this... and I had a similar transition myself, got rid of the braces and the glasses all at once... didn't fill out until much later, but the change was noticeable. I too didn't know how to respond to it at first, and as a result did some pretty stupid things, like invested in relationships with people who were not worth my time, etc, all because someone, for a change, thought I was pretty. I've learned my lesson though, just in time I think, because I'm still young enough to enjoy myself while, hopefully, not making the mistakes of someone all caught up in herself.

Raven:
It's great to hear that you took that course and you carry mace, but may I suggest a taser instead? The reason police forces don't use mace much anymore is because studies have shown that when people are subjected to mace, they can easily become more enraged and more likely to do damage. Also, let it be known that some people are completely immune to the effects of mace/OC spray. Tasers, on the other hand, can render their subject completely unable to move and will leave them stunned for a few seconds after.

To follow a girl is 1)sick 2)fucking lame and 3)oughta get you thrown in jail. That's the kind of guy that will rape a girl.

And one more thing: Not all guys think glasses are unattractive. Some think just the opposite

^ Yeah, but when you tell them that, they wont necessarily go back to wearing them and not bumping into walls. Cultural imprinting on beauty ideals can be too strong.

Tasers are illegal to private citizens in Michigan unless they are a "registered bail agent, private investigator, or properly trained aircraft pilot or crew" (that's straight from the TASER website)... and after seeing several of the videos posted here on the fatal side effects of the TASER, I think this is prudent. However, after there were several rapes in my city last spring I did initially ask my father to get me a taser, but that's not possible, so I've settled with the highest concentration pepper spray available. Both self defense mechanisms are of course secondary to a good pair of shoes you can run in, and I never leave the house alone wearing a pair I cannot do that in... call me paranoid, but I think that the women who wear high heels every day only decrease their chances of getting themselves out of a potentially dangerous situation... not to mention destroying their back and feet, but whatever, yet another case of the cultural imprinting of a beauty ideal I guess.

As for glasses, I personally do not think I necessarily look better without them, and believe me, I would never date a guy who didn't appreciate me in them. But, my own empirical evidence suggests that the general public feels otherwise (pervasive cultural attitude I guess), as I almost never get a second look with them on. But whatever, its all personal preference, as I myself prefer a guy with glasses.

no offense to anyone here but women get stalked, followed, harassed and raped regardles of their looks. there's no correlation between looks and being the recipient of dangerous attention.

Have you considered bear spray? I don't know the legality of using it on humans off hand, or if it's available in sizes that are feasible to carry, or if it won't produce a hydraulic needle effect - but it's much more potent.

No one said they didn't Smibbo, which is why I very pointedly advised any woman to exercise caution when out alone and to be prepared to deal with the worst.

among other, more subtle inferences, I was mostly responding to this:
The fact is, however, that for young, beautiful women who don't have a big brother or friend to look out for them, they can end up having to be their own knight in shining armour, because it's a deadly onslaught, otherwise.
made by the original post.

And though I agree women need to be vigilant and it's good to have a plan for defense, I take issue with the whole fear mentality that gets thrust upon women too much: I am not about to spend my life worryign about every rabid male around the corner. I will be prepared to the extent that I am able, but I"m not going to assume "the worst" every time I'm out without a male.

but then, since I"m not overly beautiful or young I don't have to worry about the "deadly onslaught"?

I agree that no matter what their looks, women can be targets. I also agree that buying into fear is not the way to go. When I was young, I was never afraid and my parents never cautioned me in any way, either, but I did get into some tricky situations and suffered because of it.

The deadly onslaught was a bit of writer's licence, but for many women, not an exaggeration at all.

I've met victims of date rape. One woman who went out with friends and woke up in a basement, naked, obviously been raped, but had no memory of anything. When I met her she was waiting to hear back re all the blood tests that she had to go through. One older woman met a guy on the internet and went out with him a couple of times.
She was date-raped at the good old age of mid-fifty. He didn't drug her, just coerced her. Didn't listen when she said no and overpowered her in various ways.

What I was trying to explain by sharing my experience, was that I felt like I was on show, like something for consumption, with lots of comments as well as physical advances and I often felt unequipped to deal with it.

I wouldn't advocate mace or anything else, only because it means having a level of prepared-ness that I would be incapable of holding onto and function normally at the same time. I'd always be on high alert and this would drive me crazy.

I was raped too, by someone I knew well and who had a position of authority over me. At 21, I was so star-struck by this guy that it took me about 10 years to realise that at that time, I felt I had no voice, that it wasn't appropriate and that I didn't want it at all. I just needed somewhere to stay and someone to listen to me. Instead, I got the works.

I think this issue is as much about young women needing a strong sense of themselves, as anything else. Why isn't it instilled in women that they are not some thing that can be chewed up and spat out, for someone else's pleasure? The beauty bit just means that the male attention can be constant and blatant. I wasn't trying to say that only beautiful women suffer.

I do wish I had someone to look out for me at that time. My parents didn't, neither did my friends and I was too dumb to realise what poor choices I was making.

Glad to say that time is over now. Aging fast with post-baby belly that never recovered, I don't have to fear the deadly onslaught either!

Seems to me that anyone can be a pastor or minister or anything else these days. I wonder how hard it would be to register as a PI

My mom told me once that I suffered from "Knight in Shining armor Syndrome". I was in a relationship with a bad girl. And I felt like being with her I could help, I could be the one to make a real difference in her life. Well change is never as easy or quick as we like it. I realized after a while that she was dragging me down. That she cared more about herself then my own welfare. Any relationship requires both to put the other first. Otherwise it's unbalanced and unhealthy.

I'm so glad I realized what was happening. After we broke up she started down the same path of destruction that she was on when I meet her. It was hard knowing I couldn't get close to her again. Sometimes even a knight needs to know when a cause is lost.

Alright. I'll preface this by saying i've long been a lurker, but haven't felt the need to create an account until this madness started. I, too, am female. I've been told i'm attractive. That doesn't mean I complain about it. In fact, I really don't think it's all that terrible.

Take a look at all of this. Can you find a single woman who hasn't chimed in "Oh no! My life is terrible, too. Other people think i'm pretty!" Look really hard. You'll probably only find one, and that's only because she hasn't been on here in quite a while.

Maybe you should all (with the exception of Smibbo) stop posting about how life is oh-so-terrible because you're beautiful. Maybe the problem is that you need your head examined because you don't have the self-esteem to handle compliments.

I am heading into my senior year of Engineering. Needless to say, i'm one of very few females in my classes. In fact, I was one of three in a class last semester. Conveniently, the teacher always had us working in groups, and never had the girls together. Was it awkward? Yes. Was I hit on? Sure was. But I know how to accept compliments, and don't let things like that bother me.

I have a job where I occasionally use my femininity to my advantage. It makes me quite a bit of money. Do I have lecherous, disgusting male customers? Of course. But I don't go complain to everyone else who is female that will listen.

Yeah, maybe all the boys staring at you does get a little old. Sometimes even irritating. But it's not a problem until you make it into one. And if you can't do that, don't dress up. Stop attracting attention to yourself. Stop trying so hard. Why do you do it in the first place? To feel pretty. Women deny it, but everyone knows it's true.

Stop feeling sorry for yourselves, and stop making such a big deal out of nothing. There will always be someone who finds you attractive. Take it as a compliment and move on.

Why are you who identify as non-beautiful ever get the idea that ANYONE EVER said that they had it worse than the non-beautiful? (I'm pretty much non-beautiful, myself, to be honest, and getting the finger for being a snotty beauty is getting old). Where did a willingness to discuss things that are or were hard mean that we are feeling sorry for ourselves? Where did willingness to discuss things that are or were hard mean that we claim that our hard things are the hardest? Why is it people can blog about being tired, about having trouble with their isp, about being annoyed by someone, and they get sympathy, but somehow having been subject to prejudice that nearly altered our lives, or that did permanently alter our lives, makes it more appropriate to ridicule us or doubt we could possibly have anything to complain about? Did it help you to eat your peas when you where young when your mother told you about the starving children in <continent of the day>?

There is a big difference between there always being someone who will find you attractive and a constant barrage of assumptions and hostility: apparently you have the former and not the latter: good for you; may you remain safe and happy and ignorant as a stump--hopefully far away from me.


I doubt I make sense. I'm tired and frustrated and that last poster tipped me over the edge of "wanting to get along." Whoever asked her to post in the video comments and not the blogs was doing me a good turn, personally, and I thank you.

Feel free to ignore me, any of you who found me to be whining or sitting on the top of my pity mountain. Next time we are having some sort of "my woes are the worst" contest, let me know, and I will trot out very different stories that have nothing to do with any of the topics covered so far, or even that do, but have a much more dramatic ending that I would normally not mention. I'm so glad I didn't tell those more personal aspects of my negative experiences during my college years. But even that last poster made reasonable points. You all did. And you nearly all failed to be intellectually generous in terms of responding to honest reports of two of the members of your community who reported about things that were important and non-trivial to them.

I hope some day to be able to have a nice beer with persephone where we count our blessings (admitting we have more than our share), whistle at our missed precipices (or some we fell over, but survived), and oggle beautiful people (who may or may not approve of the oggling). Any of the rest of you would be welcome, if you came with good will (first, I invite Thylan, raven, oh hell there's lots of you. Don't take my irks personally, unless you should, in which case I'm sure you know it).