So THATS what MAC users do while us PC users play the newest video games. I must admit, doesn't look as much fun as Left 4 Dead

One thing I never understood: Even if Darwin was wrong, how does that automatically prove the existence of (the christian) God?

I liked a lot of what you brought up in your posts. Keep fighting the good fight buddy. I don't have the strength to bicker with this religious folk while I'm working but the summer will be here before you know it.

Remind him, it's more than just evidence of evolution. There is evidence of science EVERYWHERE. He wouldn't be reading posts on facebook if science didn't work.

Looks like fun.

Is it possible that Russ is also Alms4him. He did make a comment in this video about Kent Hovind. Is he from New Jersey?

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

^ I don't think thats him. Russ, is more of a carrot top - and writes a bit differently. Definitely of the same ilk though.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

I know I'm not going to turn Russ or these people who are deeply, deeply into a fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible, but he has almost 1K friends, I'm thinking by being nice and presenting some ideas - I might plant the seed of doubt in some of his followers. ... that's what Satan does after all.

At the very least, I want them to see atheists as people, and not the bogey man- likewise it's helped me get beyond my sterotyping of bible thumpers as an aggregate, to see them as individuals with varying degrees of faith.

There certainly are hues to the fundy rainbow, once you look inside.

He doesn't know what evolution is. Nobody in that thread appears to, actually. I'd point to this to counter the "never-observed" BS, but I predict he'll say it's not evolution because the bacteria didn't turn into a duck.

Again, I suggest pointing out that evolution and abiogenesis are separate. Call him on his ignorance every time he suggests otherwise. Evolution is also not the opposite of theism or creationism, and I would point that out as well.

Catherine is hilarious. She lays out a clear (albeit poor) argument in favor of scientific methods and then somehow transitions into God = modern science, evolution = science of the 1800s.

Tell Wanda that you are perfectly willing to change your mind if shown to be wrong.

They are bombarding you with anything and everything. Implore them to stay on topic or maybe get them to answer some questions. Ask Owen why he thinks we all deserve eternal torture. Ask them if they think you're an evil person and why. Why is a moral authority necessary? Can they not tell from their own experiences what is right and what is wrong? If Adam broke the promise, why are we all to be punished? Did God not have the power to prevent our "rebellion?" Why does Russ think wolves and lambs would start fucking on Jesus's new earth?

>> ^xxovercastxx:
Again, I suggest pointing out that evolution and abiogenesis are separate.
Warms my heart to see someone pointing this out. There's nothing in the Christian Bible that contradicts evolution. It's the creation business that's the hangup.

wow you have shitty facebook friends. I wouldn't be able to handle that discussion. Mostly because I do not have the time required to untangle their own confusion (how do you defend the existence of something by using the belief that that something exists to do it?) It's called a recursive definition...(GNU anyone?)

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^It's tough, because I do feel the urge to "set them right" on all of their arguments- but I realize they would just shut down. I'm trying a softly, softly approach- being mostly nice and raising a few key points.

I very much recommend it - it's a great thought exercise to be in the minority opinion. Maybe we should have an "adopt a minister" program for VideoSift. Once you're friended, the easiest way to get the ball rolling is to post an evolution video to the Minister's wall. It all flows from there.

Christianity is a well-designed Chinese finger trap for the mind. As you get closer to proving your side of the argument and disproving something said in the Bible, they fall back on "the devil makes us question the Bible so I can never do that." Modern religions are built to resist competing ideologies, whereas old polytheistic beliefs were pretty simplistically presenting a theory of how the world works and how to survive in it. That's why it's futile trying to attack their core beliefs. It's like attacking a knight on his shield, it's the most defended target.

As ReverendTed said, the Bible doesn't directly contradict evolution. In my experience, it seems like a large percentage of Christians presently believe that god "set in motion" his creations via evolution, rather than making them directly from nothing, and that the Adam and Eve creation story is a parable. That's how I understood it, and I went to Catholic school for 12 years. The recent anti-evolution wave was more a cultural phenomenon than a religious one.

I think there's no point in proselytizing nonbelief. Defending your rights, ensuring your children get real education in school and not indoctrination--there's definitely a point to that, and that's when atheism is at its strongest. But going on the offensive against basic religious belief is counterproductive and creates more conflict.

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^I agree with you for the most part. I do think it's possible to have a constructive dialog though- without being aggressive and denigrating. I don't think it's shouting down a black hole- I think some things may sink in.

Much like the chinese finger trap, you have to push towards the middle to escape.

Isn't it sorta like smashing your head against a wall? You might get it down eventually, but damn, it's hard work.

>> ^dag:
^It's tough, because I do feel the urge to "set them right" on all of their arguments- but I realize they would just shut down. I'm trying a softly, softly approach- being mostly nice and raising a few key points.
I very much recommend it - it's a great thought exercise to be in the minority opinion. Maybe we should have an "adopt a minister" program for VideoSift. Once you're friended, the easiest way to get the ball rolling is to post an evolution video to the Minister's wall. It all flows from there.

I feel I don't have that kind of patience, Dag. But if you do, more power to you. I guess I would take it too personal that somebody can't climb out of their little box for a minute. I'd take it as a failure on my behalf

I'd be more tempted to take the big indian's path from Cuckoo's Nest. You just need a pillow and a little privacy.

You have a hell of a lot more patience than I do, Dag.

"Good on ya!"

I mean...when a creationist taunts me for having nothing but fairy tales to support my position, the irony is just rich enough to make me want to choke.

It frustrates me to no end that the "Us vs Them" mentality is at once an incredibly destructive mindset that breeds needless strife and animosity, while at the same time being an incredibly effective means of getting shit done.

Everyone is a person. Generalizations are effective ways of dealing with policy, dealing with groups, setting things up that work "on average", but every person is an individual. I try to give the individual the benefit of the doubt. Sometimes it comes back to bite me, but more often it fosters productive and meaningful relationships.

I say this because I see it on both sides of this discussion.

You're going to fry in a lake of fire for eternity!

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When you know someone is wrong- it never works to point out where the other party is broken. (did I mention I've been married for a while). All you can do is listen, respond and try to plant the seeds of ideas that people might take up as their own.

Of course the other side is, that this openness allows them to plant seeds in you. So far though- I am not willing to reject evolution and accept J.C. as my personal saviour.>> ^ReverendTed:
It frustrates me to no end that the "Us vs Them" mentality is at once an incredibly destructive mindset that breeds needless strife and animosity, while at the same time being an incredibly effective means of getting shit done.
Everyone is a person. Generalizations are effective ways of dealing with policy, dealing with groups, setting things up that work "on average", but every person is an individual. I try to give the individual the benefit of the doubt. Sometimes it comes back to bite me, but more often it fosters productive and meaningful relationships.
I say this because I see it on both sides of this discussion.

Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.

>> ^dag:
When you know someone is wrong- it never works to point out where the other party is broken. (did I mention I've been married for a while). All you can do is listen, respond and try to plant the seeds of ideas that people might take up as their own.
Of course the other side is, that this openness allows them to plant seeds in you. So far though- I am not willing to reject evolution and accept J.C. as my personal saviour.>> ^ReverendTed:
It frustrates me to no end that the "Us vs Them" mentality is at once an incredibly destructive mindset that breeds needless strife and animosity, while at the same time being an incredibly effective means of getting shit done.
Everyone is a person. Generalizations are effective ways of dealing with policy, dealing with groups, setting things up that work "on average", but every person is an individual. I try to give the individual the benefit of the doubt. Sometimes it comes back to bite me, but more often it fosters productive and meaningful relationships.
I say this because I see it on both sides of this discussion.

'cept for that part about God creating all the different animals simultaneously.

>> ^ReverendTed:
>> ^xxovercastxx:
Again, I suggest pointing out that evolution and abiogenesis are separate.
Warms my heart to see someone pointing this out. There's nothing in the Christian Bible that contradicts evolution. It's the creation business that's the hangup.

welcome to my world dag.
fundamentalism is a stagnation of the mind and deadening of spirit.
lodurr is spot on.fundamentalists have a dark ages perspective.it is either from god or a deceit wrought by satan.
let me just add that evolution does not rebuke a creator but the book of genesis.try pointing out that genesis is a sacred geomantic,metaphorical representation of creation.the tetragrammaton.or that it originates in egyptian and babylonian parables.the complete story actually focuses on lilith,the mother of all demons.
try that and watch heads explode.
i could do this all day....and fundamentalists have called me every name in the book due to me pointing out the fallacies,misinterpretations and outright manipulations.
un-erring word..my ass.

kudoa on your patience brother but dont be too shocked when they start pulling the satan card.it is like a child shoving his fingers in his ears and going bla-bla-bla "i cant hear you".

>> ^xxovercastxx:
'cept for that part about God creating all the different animals simultaneously.Depends on how you read it. And isn't that the beauty of it all? Much of the Bible is written in arbitrary language that allows for interpretation. Even those things that are written in clear language can be claimed to be metaphorical by the non-Fundamentalist. Everything that's written is absolutely true, it's just that us fallible humans may have misinterpreted it in the past.

Wow, respect for going the extra mile. I usually lose patience (and temper) when I see that people just don't want to hear your side and instead hear what they want to hear. I guess that gives you more positive karma that I will get

It's a complete waste of time, unless you're getting some (twisted?) form of enjoyment from it. Their brainwashing is far too deep to be treatable by simple reason or facts.