Excellent.

Now take the next logical step and realise that if the bible is contradictory and immoral, then it's not the perfect word of god and nothing it says can be trusted. From there, work out your own morality. Then realise you never needed god in the first place.

Welcome to the 21st century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fine-tuned_Universe&redirect=no

Newtboy, I know that I am wearing glasses. The problem is that you don't think you're wearing any. I see everything through the lens of the word of God, you see it through the lens of humanistic naturalism. We both have what is called a worldview:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_view

Your worldview is grounded on your belief in certain axioms:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom

A belief such as the scientific method being the best way to understand the natural world is an axiom. The problem with that belief is that you cannot prove that using the scientific method. It isn't a self-evident truth, it is based on unprovable assumptions. That is the fundamental issue which creates what is called the problem of induction which "calls into question..all empirical claims made by the scientific method"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_induction

If you don't think you have a worldview, or don't know what the axioms of your worldview are, then I am sorry to break this to you but you sir are the one walking around completely blind. You believe your filter is wide when it is actually very narrow.

It's easy to think that you're getting a good overall picture when actually you have simply selected sources of information which agree with your underlying assumptions about what you already believe. You are then simply living in an echo chamber.

You also forget that I used to be an agnostic and I understand that point of view. It's not my failure to understand the atheist and the agnostic, it is that I understand them all too well. I rejected that point of view when I found out there was a God. When you find out there is a God your entire worldview will shatter and fall into itsy bitsy little pieces, and you'll marvel that could be so ignorant as to miss the complete obvious:

Which is that It's completely obvious that the Universe was created and is maintained by an all powerful Creator, it isn't something anyone has to strain to look for. The majesty of Gods creation is constantly surrounding us, and our very existence at this moment is proof positive of that fact.

The theory of Intelligent Design looks for design features in the "code" of the Universe. For a good overview for the application of Intelligent Design to many other fields of science, check this out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYLHxcqJmoM&list=PLC805D4953D9DEC66

OK, I'm glad you tried though.
Actually I dismiss this as ignoring previous repeated public/biblical statements about god, Jesus, and the holy ghost being a single omniscient and omnipotent super being.
I've been told time and time again that Jesus "sacrificed himself for our sins". That means HE had control, obvious if he/3 is omnipotent, he has control over everything, knows everything, and free will is an illusion/lie...just like the cake. ;-) It simply can't be both ways. Either god is omnipotent or not. There's no such thing as 'partially omnipotent'....it's like saying 'part of infinity'....meaningless. (in case you are unaware, any portion of infinity is infinity)
If it was not intentional, and was all the doing of man, then Jesus didn't do anything FOR us in that death. So why do people thank him constantly? Why do people chastise others with 'Jesus died for your sins...so now you owe him your eternal gratitude'?
Man wouldn't need saving if god didn't CREATE sins to be avoided, or rules and rituals that must be observed (although oddly, every religion interprets the rules differently, even those that take the rules from the same book, which should be impossible if it's really the 'infallible word of god', no? Why would He make his definitive requirements so impossible to understand and follow, unless he's really closer to Loki in temperament and is really just screwing with us all), or punishment for being 'confused' about what's reality and what's not: Hell....or if god doesn't exist, or if god's existence and/or sin is unknown to a person.... (WHAT? What kind of rule system is that?) Reminds me of a joke too....

Aborigine asks the missionary :"So, you say God would not have punished us for sinning if we did not yet know about him or sin, and we would have all gone to heaven?"
Missioinary replies: "Yes, God is compassionate, and would not punish you for not knowing something you could not know, or not knowing rules you had not been taught."
Aborigine replies: "The why the f#ck did you tell us! Asshole!"

What atheists don't believe, but what I believe, is that His word is the power of God unto salvation for those who will believe:

Hebrews 4:12 For the Word of God is living and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing apart of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

@shinyblurry: I for one would love to see a scientific approach to the evidence of God and Jesus Christ. I went through a significant amount of religious indoctrination in my youth, having been involved in countless bible studies, missions, and other very emotionally driven events; but, not once was any scientific evidence presented.

Plenty of claims to there being evidence, but mostly things like "look at the mountains and the clouds -- there's your evidence right there" and endless references to the dead sea scrolls and the lack of deviation from those writings to today's printed word of god. Lots of bragging about the number of languages the bible is printed in, and then conclusions lacking in evidence, focusing on scripture and/or how to trick people into accepting that there is a possibility of God, which somehow validates all claims of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Anyway, I'm rambling right now. But point being, after years of disappointment and annoyance at Christianity, I simply stopped reading and attending bible studies. There is NO evidence. Just a bunch of he said, she said, half truths about old documents and their comparison to the documents of today -- which is flat out wrong. There are plenty of deviations. So even what I was taught is incorrect. So, if you have a solid link that outlines scientifically sound evidence for Christianity, please share with us.

Hey Enoch,

No I am getting married soon and I don't think my fiance would appreciate that. As far as posting scripture is concerned, faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God. You may believe that they are merely words in a book, but the gospel is the power of God unto salvation. I understand where you're coming from Enoch. Sometimes I feel like you are trying to pat me on the head, but it's not that I don't understand your gnostic beliefs. It is that I did understand it, fully embraced them, and rejected it all on the basis of divine revelation. I had gnostic beliefs, mixed with hindu, buddhist and new age ideas, among other things, before I became a Christian. I rejected those beliefs and embraced the word of God as the truth because the Lord directly revealed Himself to me as the Messiah. It wasn't that I read the bible and thought it sounded reasonable, it is because I had direct revelation it is the absolute truth. That's why I am a Christian.

I don't know if you hold the belief that the body is the problem as some gnostics do, but it is sin which is the problem. That is why mankind is separated from God and that is why we need a Savior. Jesus made the way for us to be reborn and be reconciled to God; not as the gnostics teach, that He brought secret knowledge, but that He paid the penalty for sin in our place.

Okay... if the bible is the infallible word of God, then why are you wasting your Sunday preaching, when he told you to stone those poor people who work over the weekend to death? C'mon, get with the program.

I assume, as a biologist, he also knows that rabbits are ruminants, some flying creatures have four legs, whales are a kind of fish, and bats are a kind of bird.

God is omnipotent, except when he's not.

Multiple Kings began their reigns at different ages (depending on which book of the bible you look at).

Saul killed himself, and the Philistines killed him.

Hey Newtboy, what's your background in reading and understanding scripture? I believe this is the scripture you were referring to, and if it is there is more to it:

1 Corinthians 2:11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Through the Holy Spirit, man is capable of understand Gods word:

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.

1 Corinthians 2:13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

This can come through the hearing of the word, the exposition of the word by a believer, or other means..but in all cases God must intervene directly with revelation:

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

It is the Holy Spirit who will teach us how to understand and interpret the word of God:

John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

It is not that men are incapable of understanding the truth that God reveals, it is that they deliberately turn away from that truth and harden their hearts towards God:

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.

Romans 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.

Romans 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

We have a choice to accept or reject God; He makes His will known to each one of us, but we have the choice of rejecting His will and doing what we would like to do instead:

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil.

Thanks for answering my questions.

Sure thing

Agreed, if the 'word of god' is debatable, it can't be infallible, can it?
Once you think for yourself, you have suddenly become philosophic, not religious, in my eyes. For some, many don't realize the transition happened and continue on with the trappings of religion while not really 'following' it.
It's those (and they are many) that look to religion for their moral compass that bother me. Since it is interpretable to mean near anything, it can't be a moral compass (or it's the kind of compass that Jack Sparrow had, that just points to whatever you want at the time).
I find it funny that many are called 'fundamentalist Christians' yet I haven't heard of a Christian stoning for a while now, and it is the clearly prescribed treatment for infidels. Clearly even the fundies pick and choose what to follow.

The word of God is infallible but human beings are fallible. We all struggle with a sinful nature and are subject to futility. There is one truth, and many flawed individuals trying to grasp that truth through their own peculiar biases and weaknesses of character. No scripture is of private interpretation, but holy men of God spoke as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who teaches men to understand the word of God, but since men are imperfect and ignore or suppress the truth, they will not always listen to the Holy Spirit and come to differing interpretations. There is only one true interpretation, but often that in itself has various facets as you examine the text for different contexts, such as spiritual connotations and applications.

Agreed, if the 'word of god' is debatable, it can't be infallible, can it?
Once you think for yourself, you have suddenly become philosophic, not religious, in my eyes. For some, many don't realize the transition happened and continue on with the trappings of religion while not really 'following' it.
It's those (and they are many) that look to religion for their moral compass that bother me. Since it is interpretable to mean near anything, it can't be a moral compass (or it's the kind of compass that Jack Sparrow had, that just points to whatever you want at the time).
I find it funny that many are called 'fundamentalist Christians' yet I haven't heard of a Christian stoning for a while now, and it is the clearly prescribed treatment for infidels. Clearly even the fundies pick and choose what to follow.

To be fair, I believe it is a matter of some debate even among theologians.

My fundamental issue with it (and religion in general) is that ultimately you must decide for yourself what is right and wrong, and as soon as you have to do that, then clearly the "word of god" (at least as delivered to humans) is not infallible, and therefore clearly not divine.

Most Christians / Jews / Muslims / Hindus / whatever are good people, but that is in spite of their religion not because of it. Their inner moral compass leads them to ignore the aspects of their faith that are offensive to modern sensibilities (slavery, racism, etc).

Ironically, the people who actually follow their religion to the letter of the law are called fundamentalists and generally shunned by society.

I find this hilarious.

Not only am I disgusted at the way this mother and father are treating their son, I'm shocked at the comments on YouTube supporting them.

Christians wonder at why atheists won't embrace their religion. This is why. How can any person choose the "Word of God" over the love of their own children? These parents are not following their God's teachings, they are using the bible to support their own fears and bigotry.

There is something genetically wrong with people like this. Would it be wrong to to suggest they go to a camp and get psychiatric help to correct their ways of life, because I think hate, violence, judgement, bigotry and child abuse are far worse crimes than than being Gay in the eyes of their God.

The truth is that "intellectual laziness" is purely the territory of those who believe that their "knowledge" is irrefutable because it comes from the bible. A book clearly, irrefutably, written by man to control man. Saying "the bible says" so it must be true, is the definition of lazy, brain washed thinking. I'm sorry you cannot see this, perhaps one day you will. Actually, you may get help by looking at the myriad contradictions in the bible. Of course the theologians tell us "you are misinterpreting it." Well, considering it is, allegedly, the word of god, it's pretty poor. Oh, and incidentally, I certainly have not had "plain facts" revealed to me and chosen to ignore them. Were there even one fact indicating the existence of a creator. I would be happy to acknowledge it. Sadly, for the believers, all they have is blind faith and a book of childish stories. I, on the other hand, will enjoy the only life I am sure of. I will enjoy the many things that this one life has to offer, and do my best to be a caring, thoughtful, happy individual. When my time is up, if I am proved wrong, and find myself standing before the great dictator - who wanted me to bow and prostrate myself in abject worship, I will tell him I have been a good person and if that is not enough for him then I'm sure - in his "mercy" - he will send me straight to hell.

Makes perfect sense.They believe because it's religion, it's beyond question. The book is fact to them and cannot be challenged because it's "The word of God".
If the book was based in truth, then, not only could we call it into question, they should welcome the challenge. But we can't because there are so many holes in it and they know it.



ARTICIAN quoted you as saying:
Any book that is not allowed to be challenged, cannot be true.

Shhhhhhh, shhhh, hush now. Repeat the mantra of Proverbs 1:7: "The FEAR of THE LORD is the beginning of knowledge."

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.

Fear God, Bible true, science bad, fear God. Therefore science bad.

And if it wasn't already clear that science and the modern Bible CANNOT exist side by side, repeat the mantra of 1 Timothy 6:20-21:

"Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith."

So it behooves the Christian NOT to involve oneself with documentaries which debate or discuss such matters, simply turn away and be content in your faith. Don't respond to my comment; don't argue; don't say anything. Jesus says walk away, son. Even if it's not printed in red, remember that Bible = Word of God = Word of Jesus Therefore Jesus says.

And so perfectly too! Therefore, again as it always has been, it is the Word and the Word is Law. So -- holy crap, man, THE LAW -- don't violate any of these thought crimes against God. Or you might suffer pain and all of that other stuff that death assigns to itself.