No, I'm not saying that. I think there is ample historical evidence that wherever you have a capitalist system you will have some people living off the returns of their capital, and that not all of them will be doing anything productive with their lives. I certainly agree with your sentiment that trying to shoehorn real people into caricatures is problematic, and I for one much prefer my world to be in shades of grey rather than simply black and white.

The advantages of using Paris Hilton as your example are, as you stated, that everybody thinks she is one of the idle rich... and any evidence that she draws considerable income from other sources can easily enough be swept under the rug.
In reply to this comment by NetRunner:
So I guess I should just ask point blank, are you saying that my overall premise is wrong, and that there is no such thing as "idle rich"?

And just to make myself explicit, where I was really gonna go with the argument was that there's a fundamental problem with castigating "idleness" and valorizing "work", especially if your definition of "idle" is "not receiving any income" and "work" as "receiving income from any source".

Paris Hilton is an awesome springboard from the usual "welfare queens vs. captains of industry" conversation into something a little more grounded in reality, since both welfare queens and captains of industry are just figments of our imagination. The real people we lump into those categories never live up to those caricatures.

So I guess I should just ask point blank, are you saying that my overall premise is wrong, and that there is no such thing as "idle rich"?

And just to make myself explicit, where I was really gonna go with the argument was that there's a fundamental problem with castigating "idleness" and valorizing "work", especially if your definition of "idle" is "not receiving any income" and "work" as "receiving income from any source".

Paris Hilton is an awesome springboard from the usual "welfare queens vs. captains of industry" conversation into something a little more grounded in reality, since both welfare queens and captains of industry are just figments of our imagination. The real people we lump into those categories never live up to those caricatures.

In reply to this comment by oritteropo:
No, and in fact the people I can think of who lived off their inheritances tend to have done something notable as well, or I probably wouldn't have heard of them (like the impressionist painter Paul Cezanne).

When I tried a google search for more candidates, the first hit was from ancient Greece! Apollodorus, son of Pasion the slave...
In reply to this comment by NetRunner:
Do you have a better example in mind? I mostly use her as my go-to example because she's a name people will recognize, associate with being ridiculously rich, has a reputation for having a crap work ethic, and a reputation for being completely out of touch with how normal people live.

I have more nuanced reasons for picking her as well, but that's really more of a springboard into a discussion about what "work ethic" really means...

Do you have a better example in mind? I mostly use her as my go-to example because she's a name people will recognize, associate with being ridiculously rich, has a reputation for having a crap work ethic, and a reputation for being completely out of touch with how normal people live.

I have more nuanced reasons for picking her as well, but that's really more of a springboard into a discussion about what "work ethic" really means...

In reply to this comment by oritteropo:
I think you've picked the wrong example there. If you check out Miss Hilton's IMDB page, she hasn't spent her life sitting around the pool living off interest even though she could have.

Now you could argue that the people who have paid her modeling fees, salary, appearance fees, travel, expenses etc. have overpaid, and I wouldn't disagree, but it was their choice and that's not the argument you made.
In reply to this comment by NetRunner:
[...]
Instead, the real "entitlement society" is comprised of people like Paris Hilton. They don't really work, certainly they don't do hard work, or even seem to possess valuable skills. They just collect interest, and act like they're royalty, entitled to collect the vast majority of the fruits of our labor.

I think you've picked the wrong example there. If you check out Miss Hilton's IMDB page, she hasn't spent her life sitting around the pool living off interest even though she could have.

Now you could argue that the people who have paid her modeling fees, salary, appearance fees, travel, expenses etc. have overpaid, and I wouldn't disagree, but it was their choice and that's not the argument you made.
In reply to this comment by NetRunner:
[...]
Instead, the real "entitlement society" is comprised of people like Paris Hilton. They don't really work, certainly they don't do hard work, or even seem to possess valuable skills. They just collect interest, and act like they're royalty, entitled to collect the vast majority of the fruits of our labor.

I think it's worth reminding you of the context here.

For one, if work is the thing we want to encourage, then why should Mitt Romney's taxes be lower than it is on people whose income actually comes from wages?

All Romney's doing is collecting interest on investments. Worse than that, he claims it's all in a blind trust, which means not only is he not exerting any control over where his money is being invested, he doesn't even know where his money has been invested.

To me, the big problem I have with the picture of the "neighbor" who "won't work" is that they don't actually exist. Nobody is living high on the government dole. Welfare queens never existed, and never will.

Instead, the real "entitlement society" is comprised of people like Paris Hilton. They don't really work, certainly they don't do hard work, or even seem to possess valuable skills. They just collect interest, and act like they're royalty, entitled to collect the vast majority of the fruits of our labor.
>> ^quantumushroom:

I salute your inspiring life story. The system worked for you, but you still did most of the work. The suggestion that you never would've made it without all the aid I do not believe. What about your neighbor who is perfectly happy living off of unemployment insurance, welfare, food banks, etc. forever? Are you willing to support those who won't--not can't--work as hard as you? Why should you have to raise his children with your taxes along with your own?

I am thought that perhaps he just didn't understand it as a Thanksgiving/Christmas tradition as well, but like you it seemed more like he had no idea what Mac and Cheese was... This goes right up there with the Paris Hilton's Wal-Mart comment... I mean the local grocery store has something like 5 shelves of the stuff... plus the restaurants and everywhere else...
What was odder is the black lady on set with him going "Yeah! It is a black thing!" Then says how she has it once or twice a year... we have it perhaps that much a month... and we're white...


>> ^ReverendTed:

At this point, I honestly didn't think there was anything Pat Robertson could say that would surprise me.
How does anyone reach his age without having experienced macaroni and cheese? It's a staple. Every buffet has it. Nearly every restaurant has it as a side item. Does Pat not ever eat out?
I wondered if perhaps he just didn't understand it as a Thanksgiving\Christmas tradition, but it sounds like he's got no idea.

>> ^Ryjkyj:

I found Hanna completely bizarre. The "facility" she escapes from that looks more like a Prada runway with convenient hidey-holes that aren't even air-ducts, yet somehow lead to all the important rooms. The whole "never-heard-music" thing. What? Her dad can't sing her a fucking song? "Mary had a little lamb?" He didn't bring a cassette tape? She interacts socially with one person her entire life and then functions completely normally in society?
And I realize that the violence in movies is never realistic, but Hanna was just ridiculous. And not even in a good Matrixy-kind-of-way or a brutal Old Boy style. The whole thing played out like a teenage super-model's revenge fantasy. Like if Paris Hilton were to make a movie about her worst enemy.
Not that I think less of anyone for liking it. I was really excited to see it and it was certainly better than the latest "Pirates" turd.


Yeah, but that movie is supposed to play out like a stylized fantasy. All the fairy tale references aren't there by chance.

I found Hanna completely bizarre. The "facility" she escapes from that looks more like a Prada runway with convenient hidey-holes that aren't even air-ducts, yet somehow lead to all the important rooms. The whole "never-heard-music" thing. What? Her dad can't sing her a fucking song? "Mary had a little lamb?" He didn't bring a cassette tape? She interacts socially with one person her entire life and then functions completely normally in society?

And I realize that the violence in movies is never realistic, but Hanna was just ridiculous. And not even in a good Matrixy-kind-of-way or a brutal Old Boy style. The whole thing played out like a teenage super-model's revenge fantasy. Like if Paris Hilton were to make a movie about her worst enemy.

Not that I think less of anyone for liking it. I was really excited to see it and it was certainly better than the latest "Pirates" turd.

If you are rich enough to be lazy that that's your issue. We are talking about poor lazy people who would rather leach and blame the system rather that man up and try to better ones station in life. >> ^heropsycho:

And there's a lot of that in both the rich and the poor. If you're that concerned about the lazy, entitled population, are you just going to pretend there are no Paris Hiltons? Give me a break.
>> ^bobknight33:
There is too many lazy people taking from society and that's the problem. Whats worse many feel entitled.
>> ^acidSpine:
>> ^bobknight33:
Its call WORK. Get a job. Contribute to society not take from it.

So if nobody takes from society what's the point of contributing to it? It's call grow a BRAIN

And there's a lot of that in both the rich and the poor. If you're that concerned about the lazy, entitled population, are you just going to pretend there are no Paris Hiltons? Give me a break.

>> ^bobknight33:

There is too many lazy people taking from society and that's the problem. Whats worse many feel entitled.
>> ^acidSpine:
>> ^bobknight33:
Its call WORK. Get a job. Contribute to society not take from it.

So if nobody takes from society what's the point of contributing to it? It's call grow a BRAIN

>> ^xxovercastxx:

>> ^Ryjkyj:
That's absolutely brilliant. I mean, think about it. If you want someone to remember your cause, you could do a lot worse than associating it with a blond, bare-chested model
Unless, of course, you're protesting the objectification of women. Then, it seems to me, a titty-based message might be counter-productive.


It is, but it works. Otherwise, we'd not be paying any attention.

>> ^Ryjkyj:

That's absolutely brilliant. I mean, think about it. If you want someone to remember your cause, you could do a lot worse than associating it with a blond, bare-chested model

Unless, of course, you're protesting the objectification of women. Then, it seems to me, a titty-based message might be counter-productive.

>> ^DerHasisttot:
It's more along the lines of: Ukrainian girls/women are being raped, sold, kidnapped, exported and used for prostitution. The Ukraine has as a result/cause a problem with sex-tourism and the subjugation of women as objects of sex. A modelling contest with a blond airhead is a great opportunity for the protesters to get publicity.
For more info: http://observers.france24.com/content/20
090828-how-they-protest-prostitution-ukraine-femen-sex-tourism

Good info, thanks.

>> ^gorillaman:

So what's this corruption in Ukraine's modelling industry?


It's more along the lines of: Ukrainian girls/women are being raped, sold, kidnapped, exported and used for prostitution. The Ukraine has as a result/cause a problem with sex-tourism and the subjugation of women as objects of sex. A modelling contest with a blond airhead is a great opportunity for the protesters to get publicity.

For more info: http://observers.france24.com/content/20090828-how-they-protest-prostitution-ukraine-femen-sex-tourism

god, just looking at paris hilton's stupid gaze, makes my IQ drop.